Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

Hentenza said:

Human nature. As I stated you see it in your church and I see it in mine. People just like to boast. Also, Paul tells us that the works we are supposed to to do are those prepared beforehand by God so that we could walk in them. Do you know what works are those?

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This really doesn't quite make sense to me. You're saying that, even if you do a work prepared for you in advance that you'll probably run out and boast about it? Those works are compelled by compassion, love-and love doesn't boast (1 Cor 13). It doesn't boast when it gives, when it forgives, when it is patient, when it consoles, when it does the right thing. Are the Pharisees, praying in public so all can see, motivated by the same reason as those who pray in private, Matt 6:5-15?

Hentenza said:

There is no reason to reconcile Eph. 2:8-10 unless you simply don’t believe it. According to Paul we, those that have been given eternal life by the grace of God through faith, are created in Christ for good works. This subset of people, the believers, the sheep that no one will snatch from His hand, will do good works because it is natural. There is no forfeit or loss of freedom. God can soften or harden the hearts of the people according to His plan.

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You're putting the cart ahead of the horse. Those who are working out their salvation have the ability to do so by virtue of their vital connection with God. They may or may not persevere in that endeavor.

Hentenza said:

Actually is God coming to be with us as He sent His only Son to become man and die for our sins.

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An unncessary distinction- without a difference. Jesus came so that we may be with God.

Hentenza said:

Since we are saved by grace through faith and are His workmanship the penalty for building in the wrong foundation is loss of reward not loss of salvation. His sheep hear His voice and are His and no one will snatch them from Him.

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"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5

So: "...apart from Me you can do nothing": As per my quote about our coming to be with God, Jesus tells us about this vital connection to the Vine that we must enter into- and remain in-or be without life.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

Paul is speaking above to believers, whose destiny is still potentially in question. You want salvation to be a one-time permanent event because you've believed. But faith, itself, is something that can be "made shipwreck" of. We must pick up our cross and follow daily, doing God's will to the best of our ability with the grace we're given throughout our lives. God gave man freedom so that he might use it rightly. Adam used it wrongly at the beginning, abusing that freedom instead. God's been all about patiently steering man back to right use of his freedom, for his own highest good, and the first step in that is faith, which then opens the door to the life of grace, the life of God in us. If we remain in Him we will produce much fruit. If we don't, if we fail to continue to use our freedom well even as it's now affected and influenced and drawn by grace, then we're dead already, no better than the heathens, and sin, bad fruit, will follow, incidentally; we end up being poor soil. The idea that a believer can live a life not pleasing to God and just loose some reward things in heaven is to seriuosly misread Scripture.

Clare73 said:

Justification means to be declared "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sinlessness by God.
Sinlessness is not righteousness, it's just without sin. Righteousness must be added to sinlessness.

RIghteousness means God's imputation of Christ's righteousness to one (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 5:18-19, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

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We have to have a full understanding of what faith is, why it’s important, and why Abraham is said to be the father of our faith. God was immensely pleased by Abraham’s faith. It was to acknowledge God’s existence, His trustworthiness, His godhood, with Abraham’s words put into practice and made real by his willingness to act upon that faith. This was apparently quite rare back in the day, this state of faith that places man squarely into the “right place” vis a vis justice/righteousness, vis a vis God, with the creature now subjugated to and heeding his Creator as man is meant to do, and as Adam failed to do. This is a game-changer for man, in fact.

God declared Abraham righteous because…Abraham did the right thing. And He wants all of us in that same place, for our good. Some only pay God lip-service but Jesus came to establish a union with God that amounts to life, that truly counters and reconciles the alienation from God caused by man’s disobedience that resulted in death. Now we may feed from the Vine, having access to the Tree of Life again. God’s satisfaction with Abraham was simply in Abraham’s living acknowledgment of Himself first of all, and what that acknowledgement means for man.

Anyway, the Greek word usually used for justified can be rendered “acquitted of unrighteousness”, “declared righteous”, rendered righteous, “made righteous”. And there are many, many variations of the root word that alter the meaning. And in Rom 5:19, two separate words are used for the concept of justification that can only be translated as “made righteous”. The church understands that, at justification, we’re forgiven (acquitted of) past sin, purified, and set right: made righteous, given the gifts, the virtues of true justice/righteousness, so that we can now be, and can now walk, as God’s children should. And, to the extent that we remain in Him, we’ll maintain and also grow in that righteousness.

fhansen said:

We have to have a full understanding of what faith is, why it’s important, and why Abraham is said to be the father of our faith. God was immensely pleased by Abraham’s faith. It was to acknowledge God’s existence, His trustworthiness, His godhood, with Abraham’s words put into practice and made real by his willingness to act upon that faith. This was apparently quite rare back in the day, this state of faith that places man squarely into the “right place” vis a vis justice/righteousness, vis a vis God, with the creature now subjugated to and heeding his Creator as man is meant to do, and as Adam failed to do. This is a game-changer for man, in fact.

God declared Abraham righteous because…Abraham did the right thing.

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1) God declared Abraham righteous (redeemed, Ge 15:6) because he believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16.)

2) The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is its NT meaning; i.e., declaration, sentence, pronouncement of remittance of sin, sinlessness, which it itself is not righteousness, only the absence of sin.
If "justification" meant "righteousness," there would be no need for the "imputation" of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) patterned (Ro 5:14) on the "imputation" of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17-19).

Clare73 said:

1) God declared Abraham righteous (redeemed, Ge 15:6) because he believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16.)

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Abraham simply believed God, without having personal knowledge of the seed, let alone His message and mission, as we do.

Clare73 said:

2) The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is its NT meaning; i.e., declaration, sentence, pronouncement of remittance of sin, sinlessness, which it itself is not righteousness, only the absence of sin.

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The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is justification. And the root word dikaios always means, simply, righteous or just.

Clare73 said:

If "justification" meant "righteousness," there would be no need for the "imputation" of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) patterned (Ro 5:14) on the "imputation" of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17-19).

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Rom 5 says nothing about imputation. If the righteousness given due to Christ's obedience is patterned on the unrighteousness resulting from Adam's sin then there would be no mere imputation of either, because all men became literally, actually unrighteous due to Adam's disobedience, not imputed to be unrighteous. Following that pattern, this means all men would literally, actually become righteous by Christ's act of obedience.

fhansen said:

Abraham simply believed God, without having personal knowledge of the seed, let alone His message and mission, as we do.

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In the OT God reckons belief in the promise of seed as saving belief in the Seed, the Messiah.

fhansen said:

The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is justification. And the root word dikaios always means, simply, righteous or just.

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Dikaios (just) is an adjective first used of persons observant of dike (what was right).
It denotes righteousness, a state of being right, or right conduct, either by human or divine standards of what is right

fhansen said:

Rom 5 says nothing about imputation.

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Au contriare. . .

Ro 5:14 - Sinful Adam causing death to reign over those who did not commit transgression (i.e., break a specific command with death penalty attached) was a pattern of the sinless CHRIST. . .esplane me dat!
Ro 5:15 - many died by the trespass of one man, grace (the gift) overflowed to many by the one man
Ro 5:16 - judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation. . .the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification
Ro 5:17 - by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (by imputation of Adam's sin), Ro 5:18-19
Ro 5:18 - JUST AS the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men (in Adam)--(by imputation of Adam's sin),
SO ALSO the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men (in Christ)--(by imputation of Christ's righteousness)
Ro 5:19 - JUST AS through the disobedience (sin) of the one man, the many were made sinners (guilty of Adam's sin by imputation),
SO ALSO through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous--(acquitted by imputation of Christ's righteousness)
(The parallels couldn't be any more clear.)

The imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19) is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

fhansen said:

If the righteousness given due to Christ's obedience is patterned on the unrighteousness resulting from Adam's sin then there would be no mere imputation of either, because all men became literally, actually unrighteous

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Imputation in God's Court is reckoned (charged to, accounted as) literal and actual, regarding both sin and rIghteousness.

Adam' sin is reckoned (charged) to all those in/of Adam, while Christ's righteousness is reckoned (credited) to all those in/of Christ.

Clare73 said:

2) The Greek definition of the word dikaiosis (justification) is its NT meaning; i.e., declaration, sentence, pronouncement of remittance of sin, sinlessness, which it itself is not righteousness, only the absence of sin.
If "justification" meant "righteousness," there would be no need for the "imputation" of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) patterned (Ro 5:14) on the "imputation" of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17-19).

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If justification doesn't mean righteousness, but only the remittance of sin, then there would be no need to even impute Christ's righteousness to the believer. Because if that were the case then God would only be interested in forgiveness, not making anyone righteous whether by declaration or by actually changing them into righteous beings.

Clare73 said:

In the OT God reckons belief in the promise of seed as saving belief in the Seed, the Messiah.

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Abraham took God at His word; Abraham believed the promise; he did not know Christ, the Messiah, let alone have a "saving belief" in Him according to that knowledge.

Clare73 said:

Au contriare. . .

Ro 5:14 - Sinful Adam causing death to reign over those who did not commit transgression (i.e., break a specific command with death penalty attached) was a pattern of the sinless CHRIST. . .esplane me dat!

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In verse 12 Paul tells us that all sin. Look around yourself: is that correct, or NOT?? In 13 he tells us that sin isn’t charged against anyone where there is no law. So verse 14 only means that all sin, even though they had no command to break.

You insist that no real righteousness is given to believers, but only an imputed/declared righteousness. So this is where you get it wrong:

Clare73 said:

Ro 5:19 - JUST AS through the disobedience (sin) of the one man, the many were made sinners (guilty of Adam's sin by imputation),
SO ALSO through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous--(acquitted by imputation of Christ's righteousness)
(The parallels couldn't be any more clear.)

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Paul is adamant about the fact that through Adam all became sinners, not merely declared to be sinners but became sinners. Therefore, to follow that pattern, through Christ they must become righteous. (The parallels couldn't be any more clear.)

The verses are not about imputing guilt, IOW, but about all men becoming sinful, sinners, guilty of sin themselves, due to Adam's act of disobedience,

fhansen said:

This really doesn't quite make sense to me. You're saying that, even if you do a work prepared for you in advance that you'll probably run out and boast about it? Those works are compelled by compassion, love-and love doesn't boast (1 Cor 13). It doesn't boast when it gives, when it forgives, when it is patient, when it consoles, when it does the right thing. Are the Pharisees, praying in public so all can see, motivated by the same reason as those who pray in private, Matt 6:5-15?

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You are assuming that I am referring to the works that God prepared in advance for us to do. I even asked you if you knew what those were but you did not respond to that.

fhansen said:

You're putting the cart ahead of the horse. Those who are working out their salvation have the ability to do so by virtue of their vital connection with God. They may or may not persevere in that endeavor.

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Actually I am not putting the cart in from of the horse. The verses are clear that we are saved by the grace of God through faith. It speaks nothing of adding works to this formula. The verses speak of us bring a workmanship and doing the works that God prepared in advance. This verse and the ones that follow are not part of the salvation formula of verse 8. They will persevere in their endeavor because they are already saged. My brother you might not like what these verses teach but you cant ignore them in leu of your belief of faith plus works. It simply does not work.

fhansen said:

An unncessary distinction- without a difference. Jesus came so that we may be with God.

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It is a necessary distinction. Man did not go to God, God came to man. The word became flesh. This is an intrinsic part of orthodox theology. Man, in their dead state, could not have come to God. One free will that man does not have is to choose not to sin.

fhansen said:

"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5

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Finish reading.
“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭15‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

fhansen said:

So: "...apart from Me you can do nothing": As per my quote about our coming to be with God, Jesus tells us about this vital connection to the Vine that we must enter into- and remain in-or be without life.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

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Do you know who the root is? What tree are the gentiles drafted onto?

fhansen said:

Paul is speaking above to believers, whose destiny is still potentially in question.

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In Romans 11 he is referring to gentiles being grafted into the tree which is Israel. We are given the chance to be saved just as the remnant will be.

fhansen said:

You want salvation to be a one-time permanent event because you've believed. But faith, itself, is something that can be "made shipwreck" of.

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Only for those that are not that claim faith but are not justified because their heart has not changed.

fhansen said:

We must pick up our cross and follow daily, doing God's will to the best of our ability with the grace we're given throughout our lives. God gave man freedom so that he might use it rightly. Adam used it wrongly at the beginning, abusing that freedom instead. God's been all about patiently steering man back to right use of his freedom, for his own highest good, and the first step in that is faith, which then opens the door to the life of grace, the life of God in us. If we remain in Him we will produce much fruit. If we don't, if we fail to continue to use our freedom well even as it's now affected and influenced and drawn by grace, then we're dead already, no better than the heathens, and sin, bad fruit, will follow, incidentally; we end up being poor soil. The idea that a believer can live a life not pleasing to God and just loose some reward things in heaven is to seriuosly misread Scripture.

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The rest of this is nothing but works salvation. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves otherwise Jesus sacrificed was for nothing and we are still subjected to the law. Those that are justified are His sheep that listen to his voice and will follow Him. Those that are His will always bear fruit and will do the works that Good prepared for them to do.

You missed the beginning of Ephesians as Paul tells us who it is that he is speaking to.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“In him we have obtained an inheritance” past tense not future. The rest of this verse talk about how we ARE in Christ not how we will be in Christ. You have to ignore these verses and many others to believe in works salvation.

Hentenza said:

You are assuming that I am referring to the works that God prepared in advance for us to do. I even asked you if you knew what those were but you did not respond to that.

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Before we go any further I most certainly did respond to your question:

fhansen said:

Those works are compelled by compassion, love-and love doesn't boast (1 Cor 13). It doesn't boast when it gives, when it forgives, when it is patient, when it consoles, when it does the right thing. Are the Pharisees, praying in public so all can see, motivated by the same reason as those who pray in private, Matt 6:5-15?

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And your point was that the works I cited, that I had specifically identified as good fruit that comes by virtue of union with Christ, would make people boast:

Hentenza said:

We agree on most everything except the sticky points of faith alone vs faith plus works. The works that you cite here are great works, however, all of them lend themselves to boasting.

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fhansen said:

If justification doesn't mean righteousness, but only the remittance of sin,

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Justification means neither. . .justification is a declaration, sentence, pronouncement. . .
of sinlessness due to the remission of sin in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

The sinlessness of justification is not righteousness. It is simply the absence of sin, but it is not the presence of righteousness.
Righteousness follows justification, by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinless redeemed.

It's regeneration --> faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of acquittal, sinlessness) --> righteousness (imputed).

Clare73 said:

Justification means neither. . .justification is a declaration, sentence, pronouncement. . .
of sinlessness due to the remission of sin in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

The sinlessness of justification is not righteousness. It is simply the absence of sin, but it is not the presence of righteousness.
Righteousness follows justification, by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinless redeemed.

It's regeneration --> faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of acquittal, sinlessness) --> righteousness (imputed).

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I see, okay, so our sins are not remitted when we're justified, they're only declared to be remitted..

fhansen said:

I see, okay, so our sins are not remitted when we're justified, they're only declared to be remitted..

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Your sin is remitted before you are justified. Sin is
1) remitted when you believe in the person (Eph 2:8-9) and work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for remission, by which remittance you are
2) saved from God's wrath on that sin at the Judgment,
3) justified (declared "not guilty," acquitted of guilt, pronounced sinless), and the
4) righteousness of Christ is imputed to you (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

Clare73 said:

Your sin is remitted before you are justified. Sin is
1) remitted when you believe in the person (Eph 2:8-9) and work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for remission, by which remittance you are
2) saved from God's wrath on that sin at the Judgment,
3) justified (declared "not guilty," acquitted of guilt, pronounced sinless), and the
4) righteousness of Christ is imputed to you (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

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It's always best to have the order right first:

It's grace > faith > justifcation/regeneration > walking in that justice/righteousness/holiness/new life unto salvation.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

This is an obligation, since we're debtors to God for what He's done for us:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

fhansen said:

Before we go any further I most certainly did respond to your question:

And your point was that the works I cited, that I had specifically identified as good fruit that comes by virtue of union with Christ, would make people boast:

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I was referring to the works that you mentioned in your post 197.

You posted:
fhansen said:
Those works are compelled by compassion, love-and love doesn't boast (1 Cor 13). It doesn't boast when it gives, when it forgives, when it is patient, when it consoles, when it does the right thing. Are the Pharisees, praying in public so all can see, motivated by the same reason as those who pray in private, Matt 6:5-15?


Sorry couldn’t get the multi quote to work here. We love because God loved us first. Gods love is in us.

“Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. By this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His only Son into the world so that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭7‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Love is therefore proof of justification. We love because God loved us first and we will remain in Him if we confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Again we love from salvation nor for salvation. His love never leaves us.

Hentenza said:

I was referring to the works that you mentioned in your post 197.

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Hentenza said:

Love is therefore proof of justification. We love because God loved us first and we will remain in Him if we confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Again we love from salvation nor for salvation. His love never leaves us.

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Yes! And that's been the point. All those works, including the works prepared for us in advance, can be called works of grace, works of the Spirit, works compelled by the love that's been poured out into our hearts (Rom 5:5). Love causes and enables me to want to obey God's will, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to overcome sin, to fulfill the law, the right way now, etc. Love is the heart and soul of the gospel, the reason Jesus came and did all that He did; it's the very nature of God.

And yet for us, love, as a gift, is also necessarily a choice, to accept and act upon that gift, that gift which is "to will the good of the other" as its been said, and as God does. And as we express that gift we grow in it, and nearer and nearer in likeness to God. That's our purpose. the very reason we were created. We can also thwart that purpose, we can refuse to love in favor of pride and selfishness and coveteousness, we can bury our talents, the grace given, we can fail to remain in Him, the Vine, the Source of love. Our faith is not about a get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe a handful of truths that serve as some kind of divine litmus test. Faith is about coming to know and turn to the true God as revealed by His Son, entering a communion with Him which means that I'll come to love as He does. I'll become 'His people', and 'He'll put His law in my mind and write it on my heart' (Jer 31:33) to the extent that I remain in Him and don't turn back to the world and the flesh.

Yes, that love, and the works it implies, is the mark, as you say, of a justifed person. Here's a directive that hasn't changed one bit under the new covenant, incidentally:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

fhansen said:

Yes! And that's been the point. All those works, including the works prepared for us in advance, can be called works of grace, works of the Spirit, works compelled by the love that's been poured out into our hearts (Rom 5:5). Love causes and enables me to want to obey God's will, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to overcome sin, to fulfill the law, the right way now, etc. Love is the heart and soul of the gospel, the reason Jesus came and did all that He did; it's the very nature of God.

And yet for us, love, as a gift, is also necessarily a choice, to accept and act upon that gift, amd it's "to will the good of the other" as its been said, as God does. And as we express that gift we grow in it, and nearer and nearer in likeness to God. That's our purpose. the very reason we were created.

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You were doing great until here.

fhansen said:

We can also thwart that purpose, we can refuse to love in favor of pride and selfishness and coveteousness, we can bury our talents, the grace given, we can fail to remain in Him, the Vine, the Source of love. Our faith is not about a get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe a handful of truths that serve as some kind of divine litmus test. Faith is about coming to know and turn to the true God as revealed by His Son, entering a communion with Him which means that I'll and come to love as He does. I'll become 'His people', and 'He'll put His law in my mind and write it on my heart' to the extent that I remain in Him and don't turn back to the world and the flesh.

Yes, that love, and the works it implies, is the mark, as you say, of a justifed person. Here's a directive that hasn't changed one bit under the new covenant, incidentally:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

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Those that are truly justified can not thwart Gods purpose in loving us. The following is a portion of the verses from 1 John 4 that I posted in my last post.

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭15‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

God‘s love remains in us and us in God. We can’t thwart the love of God if the love of God remains in us. The remaining of our lives if spent perfecting this love as part of sanctification and we have nothing to fear at judgement day. Don’t you see? A person can’t save themselves by works. Not even love is of men but of God. Even Micah understood that man did not know good so God had to show them. And this was before the redemption of men by Christ’s sacrifice.

Hentenza said:

Those that are truly justified can not thwart Gods purpose in loving us. The following is a portion of the verses from 1 John 4 that I posted in my last post.

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We can never thwart the love of God, only our own. There are way too many passages that make it clear that we can fail to remain in Him, fail to persevere. That’s why we’re instructed and exhorted to remain, to persevere. Once we’re perfected in love, presumably not fully until the next life, then the possibility of failing, and of sinning, disappear. Again, God’s never been in the business of producing automatons.

A New Dawn said:

I like how you can be so much more righteous than Adam, even though Adam was perfectly in communion with God and you aren’t ( and can’t be until we become glorified.)

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Adam alienated himself, and the rest of humanity, from God. So much for “perfectly in communion”. And Jesus came, “in the fullness of time”, to restore that communion. I assume that reconciliation has already taken place for Adam long ago, but we can’t know. Adam’s “problem” was that he didn’t yet love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength yet in Eden. If he did, then obedience would’ve flowed naturally, of its own accord. And to the extent that we do, we're already ahead of Adam, as he started out in Eden. Anyway, God has been patiently working with man down thru the centuries to ultimately cultivate that very love in us. And it begins, with the new birth, in this life.

A New Dawn said:

And you didn’t answer my question. Was Jesus’ sacrifice a work of the law or not? I don’t care how you see it, I want Biblical support.

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That’s your question, not mine. I don’t see the significance of it to begin with so maybe you could explain that or just go ahead and answer it for yourself if you like. For me, it’s a work of God’s, that trumps any other works.

fhansen said:

Adam alienated himself, and the rest of humanity, from God. So much for “perfectly in communion”. And Jesus came, “in the fullness of time”, to restore that communion. I assume that reconciliation has already taken place for Adam long ago, but we can’t know. Adam’s “problem” was that he didn’t yet love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength yet in Eden. If he did, then obedience would’ve flowed naturally, of its own accord. And to the extent that we do, we're already ahead of Adam, as he started out in Eden. Anyway, God has been patiently working with man down thru the centuries to ultimately cultivate that very love in us. And it begins, with the new birth, in this life.

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Adam and Eve were the ONLY ones who could make a truly free will choice, and even in the presence of God, they CHOSE to rebel. That should tell you how tempting sin is and why people like us can’t hope to choose God over our own sin. Jesus gives us the hope of being in communion with God by changing our heart and giving us the Holy Spirit to guide and help shape us, but we are still surrounded by sin.

A New Dawn said:

Adam and Eve were the ONLY ones who could make a truly free will choice, and even in the presence of God, they CHOSE to rebel. That should tell you how tempting sin is and why people like us can’t hope to choose God over our own sin. Jesus gives us the hope of being in communion with God by changing our heart and giving us the Holy Spirit to guide and help shape us, but we are still surrounded by sin.

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People often tend to elevate Adam and Eve to near mythical or divine status, but that's not quite the case either: they shared the same human nature as we all do, they were limited in freedom, power, knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom compared to God. They were finite, created beings. They were certainly advantaged; however, they possessed innocence, they knew God directly, still possessing the basic knowledge of God that we’re now born without, they were free from concupiscence, naturally having self-control. They were gifted with an innate holiness proper to human beings. And they were destined to live forever. But they did not choose this state of being, and they were obviously quite capable of making foolish choices, which they did.

A question begging to be asked: Did Adam and Eve love God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength? And, if that question is answered rightly, we’ll better understand the bible, the gospel, and why Jesus came. There was something still missing in man, something that only he could provide even if grace is absolutely essential in his obtaining it. He must choose grace; he must choose God, and that’s the very reason, which may seem ironic, that man was cast into a relatively godless world, the world Adam chose, in effect, where he could be his own “god”. A world that appears to end in death/annihilation, a world where good and evil, the good of God’s creation along with the sin of man’s creation, sin made possible by man’s complete freedom from Him now, are literally known, or experienced, daily. That's the "advantage" we have now-and it's a real one-so that man might figure out-with struggle-that something very vital is missing when he says “no” to God. We’re here to have a “yes” cultivated within us. A yes that begins with faith and is intended to blossom into full-blown love, something that A & E lacked, something- the only thing- that would’ve precluded and prevented their disobedience altogether.

That’s where man’s full-true justice, righteousness, and purpose lie, in the simple fulfilment of the greatest commandment, not without the second greatest commandment that accompanies it.