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What is your opinion? - The intended readership of Hebrews.

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You seem to misunderstand, perhaps intentionally, the nature of the question because it is about the emphasis on the addressing and attempts to overcontextualize the letters that so many engage in by taking those designations as rendering them applicable to select groups.

Not everything in the Bible applies to everyone equally. While we can take some practical application to ourselves from books that were not written for us, doing so is no small task, and Paul spent an exorbitant amount of time clarifying to us what is applicable to Gentiles from the Hebrew Bible. The same is true for books like James and Hebrews.
 
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Fervent

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Not everything in the Bible applies to everyone equally. While we can take some practical application to ourselves from books that were not written for us, doing so is no small task, and Paul spent an exorbitant amount of time clarifying to us what is applicable to Gentiles from the Hebrew Bible. The same is true for books like James and Hebrews.
That is a distinctly modern perspective, and as I suspected your interest in the designations of letters is to carve out exemptions that do not truly exist. Tsk tsk for you skipping to my second question and ignoring the first it was meant to augment.
 
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That is a distinctly modern perspective, and as I suspected your interest in the designations of letters is to carve out exemptions that do not truly exist. Tsk tsk for you skipping to my second question and ignoring the first it was meant to augment.

The destruction of Jerusalem left the Church feeling like a lost puppy away from its owner. The early church did not expect that to happen. They started reinterpreting everything shortly after. The Church can err. It has many, many times. So, I am not concerned about how "modern" my interpretation is because it goes back to Paul.
 
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Fervent

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The destruction of Jerusalem left the Church feeling like a lost puppy away from its owner. The early church did not expect that to happen. They started reinterpreting everything shortly after. The Church can err. It has many, many times. So, I am not concerned about how "modern" my interpretation is because it goes back to Paul.
Paul didn't recognize distinction in the church, there was one baptism, one Lord. The entire letter to the Romans is an indictment of dividing ourselves across gentile/Jewish lines.
 
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Paul didn't recognize distinction in the church, there was one baptism, one Lord. The entire letter to the Romans is an indictment of dividing ourselves across gentile/Jewish lines.

Romans talks about differences in the ways Jews and Gentiles worship God as well.
 
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Rose_bud

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I suspect you're right the original audience would have had no doubt. But concerns over audience today tend to be incorporating modern ideas about letters where the designee restricts the targets. We by and large no longer have a conception of a public letter, where the designation is more often than not a literary device rather than an actual address(as in James where it is likely that the designation is meant to convey the eschatological characcter of the letter rather than to identify a particular audience).
I would think in the initial stages of exegesis it would be important to differentiate. But exegesis doesn't end there. It's a process moving from the original audience with all its contexts to the modern audience, discovering the differences and similarities between our world and theirs. And a Gentile world or context could be different from a Jewish context, as seen in Paul's earlier letters.
It seems to me that more often the aim is to carve out exceptions and limit the application rather than an attempt to gain fresh insights into the letter.
The principles don't differentiate. It could be another check to see if my principle is timeless. i.e. what applies to Jews should apply to Gentiles; if it's not both, it's not a timeless principle.
 
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Fervent

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I would think in the initial stages of exegesis it would be important to differentiate. But exegesis doesn't end there. It's a process moving from the original audience with all its contexts to the modern audience, discovering the differences and similarities between our world and theirs. And a Gentile world or context could be different from a Jewish context, as seen in Paul's earlier letters.
Historical context can be important, but typically the people making a deal about the audience are doing it to artifcially restrict them.
The principles don't differentiate. It could be another check to see if my principle is timeless. i.e. what applies to Jews should apply to Gentiles; if it's not both, it's not a timeless principle.
You seem to be speculating in areas that aren't often a major part of the discussion at hand. The idea behind these kind of questions are attempts to overcontextualize and declare large swaths of the Scriptures "other people's mail". Contextual analysis is, of course, important but the way that audience expectations in public letters was quite distinct from how addressing works in modern letters. And typically an excessive focus on original audiences stems from an anachronistic expectation of private concern.
 
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Rose_bud

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Historical context can be important, but typically the people making a deal about the audience are doing it to artifcially restrict them.
Maybe I missed this?? How do you come to this conclusion?
You seem to be speculating in areas that aren't often a major part of the discussion at hand. The idea behind these kind of questions are attempts to overcontextualize and declare large swaths of the Scriptures "other people's mail". Contextual analysis is, of course, important but the way that audience expectations in public letters was quite distinct from how addressing works in modern letters. And typically an excessive focus on original audiences stems from an anachronistic expectation of private concern.
Sure, you will always get people who do things for different reasons or even short circuiting the exegetical process, But I'm discussing how I would approach it. Yes, it becomes universal in its application but to deny that it was originally intended for a certain people in a certain context is ahistorical.
 
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Fervent

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Maybe I missed this?? How do you come to this conclusion?
Past experience in discussions of this sort.
Sure, you will always get people who do things for different reasons or even short circuiting the exegetical process, But I'm discussing how I would approach it. Yes, it becomes universal in its application but to deny that it was originally intended for a certain people in a certain context is ahistorical.
Understanding the original audiences isn't always all that helpful, especially as it's quite easy for us to think of these things in modern categories or with ill advised presuppositions. Developing an understanding of the history and circumstantial issues involved is of great interest exegetically, but unless there is reason to believe that the intention was restricted to a specific audience and not just that a particular audience happened to be the initial recipients questions about original audience might actually lead us astray. This is particularly true because in the ancient world the epistelory process tended to be public letters and the designees were honorific rather than true designations in the way such things function in letters today. Which can cause confusion where the honorific is used for literary/establishing purposes such as we see in James where the designation functions to identify it as being eschatological and is making a theological point.

So while I appreciate that you are sharing your perspective, there's more going on in this conversation than simply attempts to exegete the letter. You seem to be missing the distinctly dispensational character of the implicit understandings the question entails.
 
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@Fervent, you make no sense. What are Gentile Christians supposed to do with the ceremonial laws of the OT compared to the moral laws of the OT? When exactly does this sort of contextualization go away in the Bible?
 
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Fervent

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@Fervent, you make no sense. What are Gentile Christians supposed to do with the ceremonial laws of the OT compared to the moral laws of the OT? When exactly does this sort of contextualization go away in the Bible?
I know of no such distinction.
 
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Fervent

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I don't find gotquestions a particularly enlightening source, I am well aware there are some who claim that such a distinction exists but its unsustainable when we get into how the law actually functioned and trying to segment the law into the categories. They are theological inventions not reflected in the Bible itself.
 
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I don't find gotquestions a particularly enlightening source, I am well aware there are some who claim that such a distinction exists but its unsustainable when we get into how the law actually functioned and trying to segment the law into the categories. They are theological inventions not reflected in the Bible itself.

Okay, well, Paul uses the Moral Law to talk about imperatives for Gentiles. There is a ton of president and reason for it.
 
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Fervent

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Okay, well, Paul uses the Moral Law to talk about imperatives for Gentiles. There is a ton of president and reason for it.
Perhaps you could show where he makes a distinction? Show me where Paul talks about the law in categories like "moral law" or "ceremonial law"
 
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Perhaps you could show where he makes a distinction? Show me where Paul talks about the law in categories like "moral law" or "ceremonial law"

One excellent example is Acts 15.
 
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Rose_bud

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Past experience in discussions of this sort.

Understanding the original audiences isn't always all that helpful, especially as it's quite easy for us to think of these things in modern categories or with ill advised presuppositions. Developing an understanding of the history and circumstantial issues involved is of great interest exegetically, but unless there is reason to believe that the intention was restricted to a specific audience and not just that a particular audience happened to be the initial recipients questions about original audience might actually lead us astray. This is particularly true because in the ancient world the epistelory process tended to be public letters and the designees were honorific rather than true designations in the way such things function in letters today. Which can cause confusion where the honorific is used for literary/establishing purposes such as we see in James where the designation functions to identify it as being eschatological and is making a theological point.

So while I appreciate that you are sharing your perspective, there's more going on in this conversation than simply attempts to exegete the letter. You seem to be missing the distinctly dispensational character of the implicit understandings the question entails.
I don't see how discovering who the original audience is can lead one astray, especially if the end goal is not to remain in an ancient context.

Not understanding who it was for and why can most likely do that damage as it would short circuit the process of discovering the meaning, intent and timeless principles. Which is the point at which you want to start at, if im understanding what you are saying.

We lose out some vital information if we forgo that Timothy was adressed to him first as a young leader. You make the example with James. Each letter then should be first considered for its original audience before making its appeal to a modern audience. Which has been what I am saying.
 
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Fervent

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I don't see how discovering who the original audience is can lead one astray, especially if the end goal is not to remain in an ancient context.
It depends on whether such things are easily discoverable, or require us to read into the text. In the "letter" to the Hebrews, there's no greeting. If God wanted us to know who the original recipients were, that's a pretty big omission. So what do we base our interest in the original audience on? What do we use to investigate?
Not understanding who it was for and why can most likely do that damage as it would short circuit the process of discovering the meaning, intent and timeless principles. Which is the point at which you want to start at, if im understanding what you are saying.
In particular letters, sure. But if there isn't a designee or the designee functions not to identify a particular group but to stand in for a theological declaration insistence on "original audience" misses the historical context rather than addresses it.
We lose out some vital information if we forgo that Timothy was adressed to him first as a young leader. You make the example with James. Each letter then should be first considered for its original audience before making its appeal to a modern audience. Which has been what I am saying.
My example with James isn't about his original audience, but how the designation functions in his letter to not specify an audiene but instead present an eschatological vision. You're speaking to an entirely different concern, which is not reading the letters out of their historical context, but are missing key context in the discussion at hand. Questions about who the letter to the Hebrews was originally intended for doesn't really contribute to understanding the context of the letter since it doesn't respect that it is silent on the matter which is in itself an important piece of historical context.
 
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