• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Communism- Socialism

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your characterizations have been quite left so far. My position has always been centrist.
Perhaps from your perspective, but I hardly think concern for humanitarian causes is(or at least should be) polar.
What specifically gives you the wrong idea that I am being insincere. What I posted I posted in good faith. You could actually just reply to what I wrote instead of deflecting.
I'm not deflecting, but given your insistence that laziness is the primary issue renders me suspicious of you having the concerns of the impoverished at heart.
Opinion without evidence is just that opinion. Let me give you an example of educational resources available here in Houston. The Houston Community College system has a plethora of vocational or academic two year degrees available to anyone that wants to study them. When combined with the pell grant the two years of study are virtually free.
It's not opinion, I'd suggest you look up number of school days missed among the poor due to situations that persist due to poverty. I'm not denying that opportunities exist, but there is a lot of disparity in access to such opportunities and invisible barriers that those living in poverty have to deal with that go far beyond them simply being "lazy".
No hypothetical at all. Explain why you think it is hypothetical.
What makes it hypothetical is that it is not based on empirical studies but on rational constructs. It is a logical objection, rather than one built on the actual dynamics that exist.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,869
8,970
65
✟426,550.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
i'm less concerned with individuals property rights, than I am with alleviating the suffering of a significant portion of the population.
There isn't any suffering of a significant portion of the population.
What would stop them from "holding onto it"? How would it be taken from them, in your imagined scenario?
Because they would destroy it. They would cause so many problems that they would have to be removed. We see that over and over again.

Now I have nothing against them. Its just the way it is. My solution would be to spend the money on institutions where they would be required to go. Until they are clean and stay clean and on their feet. Or they are permanently there becauae they are incapable of being on their own due to mental health. I would pay for that.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There isn't any suffering of a significant portion of the population.
Perhaps not in your neck of the woods...though I'm not sure where that would be.
Because they would destroy it. They would cause so many problems that they would have to be removed. We see that over and over again.

Now I have nothing against them. Its just the way it is. My solution would be to spend the money on institutions where they would be required to go. Until they are clean and stay clean and on their feet. Or they are permanently there becauae they are incapable of being on their own due to mental health. I would pay for that.
This sounds like you have little experience with the homeless and are simply operating on prejudices and propaganda.
 
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
41,355
16,514
Fort Smith
✟1,400,758.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
It is about power. Giving power over to "Government". Why would people want that? Seems to me they like all that power.

In other words the people are incapable of looking to their own interest? These others know better than they what is best for them? Seems like right there you have those who think the people are inept and need a certain class to control?

As long as freedom of speech continues ,and the vote is not corrupt "we the people can choose who has power to do what.
In authoritarian governments, is it better to have an authoritarian leader of a group installed by oligarchs who think things like minimum wages, consumer protections, and labor unions are inconveniences that must be eradicated so they can enjoy maximum profits powered by (low) wage slaves? Or is it better to have an authoritarian leader who promotes the common good and maintains his power by popular programs based on fairness? Obviously the second answer is preferable.

BTW, what are you doing to preserve our freedom of speech--as the current president bans major news organizations such as the Associated Press from his news conferences, sues law firms (and blackballs them from hiring) who bring cases against his unconstitutional decisions, sues ABC, CBS, Paramount, etc. for daring to speak the truth (something he is very unfamiliar with)?
Freedom of speech is endangered. Voter suppression is rampant, particularly in the deep South.

Given those truths, bring on the opposition party votes and Congressional seats to set strong, firm, unbreakable boundaries up against his unconstitutional, inhumane policies.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,869
8,970
65
✟426,550.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Perhaps not in your neck of the woods...though I'm not sure where that would be.
It isnt anywhere in the US.
This sounds like you have little experience with the homeless and are simply operating on prejudices and propaganda.
Lol, ive worked with the homeless for almost 40 years. We have a homeless area in my city including homes for them. I know ow what I'm talking about.

They are human beings who have serious issues. And those issues lead rhem just to being a real problem. Everytime a city has attempted to create.a space for them they have ruined it. It's a result of their personal issues, whether that be addiction or mental health or both. The mental health isnt their fault. Rhats why we need to provide a place for them to live and remain.

The addictions arw their fault, but its an addiction. And without help there is little to no way out. So, we need to help them get out of it. By court order if necessary becauae rhey are obviously destructive to themselves and society.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It isnt anywhere in the US.
I suppose the people in my community who can't afford to eat regularly, who are subject to hard choices between which utilities they're going to pay this month and which ones they can kick the can on, who have to choose between their own hunger and their childrens...that's not suffering, right? To deny that there is a significant portion of the population who suffer from a lack of access to resources is either ill-informed or has a strange tolerance for human misery.
Lol, ive worked with the homeless for almost 40 years. We have a homeless area in my city including homes for them. I know ow what I'm talking about.
Given your attitude towards them, I find this difficult to believe.
They are human beings who have serious issues. And those issues lead rhem just to being a real problem. Everytime a city has attempted to create.a space for them they have ruined it. It's a result of their personal issues, whether that be addiction or mental health or both. The mental health isnt their fault. Rhats why we need to provide a place for them to live and remain.
There are certainly compounding issues, but that's not my understanding of programs such as the ones in operation in Seattle where housing is being provided with limited strings attached and the homeless population has seen a significant decrease especially among those who are chronically homeless. Though such programs haven't exactly been widespread because too many people's knee jerk reaction is "I've got to pay for my house, why should they be given one for free?"
The addictions arw their fault, but its an addiction. And without help there is little to no way out. So, we need to help them get out of it. By court order if necessary becauae rhey are obviously destructive to themselves and society.
Addiction treatment is far more successful alongside providing solutions to the housing issue, so saying "Well, they've got other issues" appears more to be a lack of compassion than a desire to provide solutions.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,950
4,082
On the bus to Heaven
✟80,738.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Given your attitude towards them, I find this difficult to believe.
The man just told you that he has worked with homeless for 40 years and this is the best you have? It looks like anyone that differs from your opinion you accuse of being disingenuous.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The man just told you that he has worked with homeless for 40 years and this is the best you have? It looks like anyone that differs from your opinion you accuse of being disingenuous.
Yes, I find it difficult to believe that someone who expresses such callous disregard would have the temerity to deal with the often hostile realities that it takes to engage with the homeless. Am I supposed to believe everything people say on the internet?
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,950
4,082
On the bus to Heaven
✟80,738.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, I find it difficult to believe that someone who expresses such callous disregard would have the temerity to deal with the often hostile realities that it takes to engage with the homeless. Am I supposed to believe everything people say on the internet?
No but this is a private website and most people here are posting in good faith. If you differ from their opinion then post a rebuttal. No reason to post disparaging comments just because you dont agree with them.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No but this is a private website and most people here are posting in good faith. If you differ from their opinion then post a rebuttal. No reason to post disparaging comments just because you dont agree with them.
Thanks for the scolding. Though my comment wasn't intended to disparage him, just to express my skepticism towards his claim. Anyone can say anything on the internet, especially in regards to their personal experience. So there's not really a way to make a rebuttal to such a claim, unless you want me to hire a private eye to investigate his history. He very well could be telling the truth, but its a claim I have difficulty believing.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,869
8,970
65
✟426,550.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
I suppose the people in my community who can't afford to eat regularly, who are subject to hard choices between which utilities they're going to pay this month and which ones they can kick the can on, who have to choose between their own hunger and their childrens...that's not suffering, right? To deny that there is a significant portion of the population who suffer from a lack of access to resources is either ill-informed or has a strange tolerance for human misery.
There is no significant portion of people in the US who face that. The poor in this country have big screen tvs, 75% have one or two vehicles. People below rhe poverty levels get enough benefits to reach income levels or over $50,000 a year.

Say a single mother of 2 earns minimum wage. She will earn about 14000. Then with government benefits she earns 26000. Then with state benefits she typically will end up wearing about 47000 total in dollars and benefits. Enough to live on.

96% of poor report no one is going hungry in their family.

  • These homes typically had both air conditioning and a personal computer.
  • For entertainment, they typically had cable or satellite TV, three color televisions, a DVD player, a VCR, and a video game system, such as an Xbox or Play Station.
  • In the kitchen, they had a refrigerator, a stove and oven, a microwave, and an automatic coffee maker.
  • Other amenities included a cell phone, a cordless phone, and a clothes washer.[17]
On average rhe poor children have the same nutritional assessments as middle income children.

The home has at least one widescreen TV connected to cable, satellite, or a streaming service, a computer or tablet with internet connection, and a smartphone. (Some 82% of poor families have one or more smartphones.)

By their own report, the average poor family had enough food to eat throughout the prior year. No family member went hungry for even a single day due to a lack of money for food.

Thats not to say NO one ever has a problem. When the census was conducted 7% had missed a housing payment in rhe past two months. Only 2% had utilities problems.

We spend at least 220 Billion dollars to help the poor. Thats 2 1/2 times more than is needed to eliminate child poverty in rhe US. Yet we still have some. Why, its obviously not because we aren't paying enough.

So, one would have to ask rhe question why are some still having g problems despite all of this. And its not becauae we arw not helping. We are, by a very large amount. These poor are getting FAR more than the gleaning at the edge of the field. They have housing, clothes, food, cars, big screen tvs, xboxes and air conditioning.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,950
4,082
On the bus to Heaven
✟80,738.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Thanks for the scolding. Though my comment wasn't intended to disparage him, just to express my skepticism towards his claim. Anyone can say anything on the internet, especially in regards to their personal experience. So there's not really a way to make a rebuttal to such a claim, unless you want me to hire a private eye to investigate his history. He very well could be telling the truth, but its a claim I have difficulty believing.
Scolding not intended. Google can tell you just about everything though. ;)
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no significant portion of people in the US who face that. The poor in this country have big screen tvs, 75% have one or two vehicles. People below rhe poverty levels get enough benefits to reach income levels or over $50,000 a year.

Say a single mother of 2 earns minimum wage. She will earn about 14000. Then with government benefits she earns 26000. Then with state benefits she typically will end up wearing about 47000 total in dollars and benefits. Enough to live on.

96% of poor report no one is going hungry in their family.

  • These homes typically had both air conditioning and a personal computer.
  • For entertainment, they typically had cable or satellite TV, three color televisions, a DVD player, a VCR, and a video game system, such as an Xbox or Play Station.
  • In the kitchen, they had a refrigerator, a stove and oven, a microwave, and an automatic coffee maker.
  • Other amenities included a cell phone, a cordless phone, and a clothes washer.[17]
On average rhe poor children have the same nutritional assessments as middle income children.

The home has at least one widescreen TV connected to cable, satellite, or a streaming service, a computer or tablet with internet connection, and a smartphone. (Some 82% of poor families have one or more smartphones.)

By their own report, the average poor family had enough food to eat throughout the prior year. No family member went hungry for even a single day due to a lack of money for food.

Thats not to say NO one ever has a problem. When the census was conducted 7% had missed a housing payment in rhe past two months. Only 2% had utilities problems.

We spend at least 220 Billion dollars to help the poor. Thats 2 1/2 times more than is needed to eliminate child poverty in rhe US. Yet we still have some. Why, its obviously not because we aren't paying enough.

So, one would have to ask rhe question why are some still having g problems despite all of this. And its not becauae we arw not helping. We are, by a very large amount. These poor are getting FAR more than the gleaning at the edge of the field. They have housing, clothes, food, cars, big screen tvs, xboxes and air conditioning.
Where are these numbers coming from? This sounds so far off from what I see in my community that I'm quite suspicious of it, but I'm open to being contradicted. So where do these figures come from? Is this self-reports? What was the sampling method?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
13,602
5,525
European Union
✟225,045.00
Country
Czech Republic
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No one died from a capitalist government because there is no such thing.
If you believe a government or country can be capitalist, then the USA are an example of many evils under such government or under such system.

If you do not believe it is technically possible, your post had no meaning and it was like "nobody died under tralalala government".
 
Upvote 0

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
10,597
10,352
the Great Basin
✟398,777.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where are these numbers coming from? This sounds so far off from what I see in my community that I'm quite suspicious of it, but I'm open to being contradicted. So where do these figures come from? Is this self-reports? What was the sampling method?

It doesn't help the data is 20 years old (published in 2005 for a report made in 2011). You have to wonder why, for a report written in 2011, they didn't use data from 2010. Perhaps because the Heritage Foundation has a right-wing agenda and the 2005 data was "better" for them and may also be why they, apparently, have never tried to update the report over the last 15 years.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,869
8,970
65
✟426,550.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
There are certainly compounding issues, but that's not my understanding of programs such as the ones in operation in Seattle where housing is being provided with limited strings attached and the homeless population has seen a significant decrease especially among those who are chronically homeless. Though such programs haven't exactly been widespread because too many people's knee jerk reaction is "I've got to pay for my house, why should they be given one for free?"
Seattle's programs have been a disaster. Since the started the programs they have had a HUGE influx of homeless people. And a 280% increase in overdose deaths inside these units.

Secondly Seattle's programs is in crisis due to the buildings being sold by the non-profits becauae they cant afford to operate anymore. Seattle isnt funding these places and people who are there are not paying.

"13 buildings with more than 1,100 units where low-income people live is an unusual amount and a symptom of something bigger: The affordable housing sector is at a breaking point."

“If nonprofit and mission-driven housing providers can’t afford to keep their properties running, we won’t just see an increase in evictions, but we will see the loss of the entire affordable housing portfolio,” said Patience Malaba, executive director of the Housing Development Consortium, a network of Seattle housing providers.

In Seattle Housing Authority buildings, the number of tenants not paying was 8% in 2019 and 23% last year.

Additionally, Harrell will soon sign an executive order authorizing more rental assistance, according to a spokesperson.

Still, providers say it hasn’t been enough and are pushing for more, and faster. The city’s pace, said Emily Thompson, partner at the for-profit GMD Development, “does not meet the moment of the crisis we find ourselves in.”

Some in the sector worry that if buildings continue losing money and banks foreclose on them, private investors may pull out of Seattle’s affordable housing market altogether, causing the system to fall apart.

City officials say they have already spent a lot of money in the short term trying to stabilize affordable housing and are looking into long-term sustainable solutions. They expect to meet the housing production goals of the 2023 levy, but they face an increasingly tight budget, and are weighing trade-offs between stabilizing and preserving existing affordable housing and new units.

Officials at the state Housing Finance Commission said they’re also shifting their focus away from adding as many affordable housing units as they can.

“Now, I’d say it’s all hands on deck to preserve the units that we have,” said Lisa Vatske, a director at the agency.

So, Seattle's efforts are not working. Rhe enormous cost of these things is creating serious budgetary problems.

What happens far too often is that reality strikes rhe compassion fairy and and we realize that the whole nice idea cant be done. Because rhe people involved arw not stable enough. These non-profits want to be able to get rid of unsafe people in their building but cant.

AND the idea of I paid for my house so why do they get one for free is entirely valid. I pay income taxes and I pay property taxes. The idea of free must come with requirements. Like "your staying here until you are clean and able to be on your own. Or you are staying here because you aren't mentally well enough to be on your own.

I think people would pay for that. I would. Get them off the street and into a facility where they are not allowed out until clean.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Seattle's programs have been a disaster. Since the started the programs they have had a HUGE influx of homeless people. And a 280% increase in overdose deaths inside these units.

Secondly Seattle's programs is in crisis due to the buildings being sold by the non-profits becauae they cant afford to operate anymore. Seattle isnt funding these places and people who are there are not paying.

"13 buildings with more than 1,100 units where low-income people live is an unusual amount and a symptom of something bigger: The affordable housing sector is at a breaking point."

“If nonprofit and mission-driven housing providers can’t afford to keep their properties running, we won’t just see an increase in evictions, but we will see the loss of the entire affordable housing portfolio,” said Patience Malaba, executive director of the Housing Development Consortium, a network of Seattle housing providers.

In Seattle Housing Authority buildings, the number of tenants not paying was 8% in 2019 and 23% last year.

Additionally, Harrell will soon sign an executive order authorizing more rental assistance, according to a spokesperson.

Still, providers say it hasn’t been enough and are pushing for more, and faster. The city’s pace, said Emily Thompson, partner at the for-profit GMD Development, “does not meet the moment of the crisis we find ourselves in.”

Some in the sector worry that if buildings continue losing money and banks foreclose on them, private investors may pull out of Seattle’s affordable housing market altogether, causing the system to fall apart.

City officials say they have already spent a lot of money in the short term trying to stabilize affordable housing and are looking into long-term sustainable solutions. They expect to meet the housing production goals of the 2023 levy, but they face an increasingly tight budget, and are weighing trade-offs between stabilizing and preserving existing affordable housing and new units.

Officials at the state Housing Finance Commission said they’re also shifting their focus away from adding as many affordable housing units as they can.

“Now, I’d say it’s all hands on deck to preserve the units that we have,” said Lisa Vatske, a director at the agency.

So, Seattle's efforts are not working. Rhe enormous cost of these things is creating serious budgetary problems.

What happens far too often is that reality strikes rhe compassion fairy and and we realize that the whole nice idea cant be done. Because rhe people involved arw not stable enough. These non-profits want to be able to get rid of unsafe people in their building but cant.

AND the idea of I paid for my house so why do they get one for free is entirely valid. I pay income taxes and I pay property taxes. The idea of free must come with requirements. Like "your staying here until you are clean and able to be on your own. Or you are staying here because you aren't mentally well enough to be on your own.

I think people would pay for that. I would. Get them off the street and into a facility where they are not allowed out until clean.
Your complaints about Seattles issues appear to be a switch from your claims about the homeless squandering the homes, as the challenges are financial strain on the non-profits and not an issue with the beneficiaries. Which speaks against your insistence that the claim several uberwealthy individuals have enough that they could single handedly solve homelessness is false, as the solution to homelessness is in large part affordable housing and affordable housing isn't sustainable because of artificial market pressures as corporations and wealthy individuals treat real estate as an investment.

The attitude of "I paid for my house, so why do they get one for free" may be "valid", but it certainly isn't what I would consider Christian. And the programs aren't without strings, they require enrollment in sober living programs which include random drug screenings and participation in employment programs. And they're not a forever free situation, either. They're simply given the housing upfront and a timeline to begin paying once they've become established in their employment.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,869
8,970
65
✟426,550.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Yes, I find it difficult to believe that someone who expresses such callous disregard would have the temerity to deal with the often hostile realities that it takes to engage with the homeless. Am I supposed to believe everything people say on the internet?
Its uou who are failing to deal with the hostile realities these people create every day.

Every city that had tried to put them in housing has had that housing ruined. LA, Denver and San Francisco to name a few. They make the streets and parks unsafe. Crime and violent crime runs rampant wherever they set up. These are FACTS that cannot be denied.

None of these facts have anything to do with compassion. Rhey are just facts.

If we really had compassion for them, we would get them off the street and into facilities where they could be taken care of. Just providing them a house that they ruin or die from overdoses in or create unsafe environments may assuage your conscience, but it doesn't actually solve the problem. My ideas do.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,214
2,675
45
San jacinto
✟199,937.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Its uou who are failing to deal with the hostile realities these people create every day.

Every city that had tried to put them in housing has had that housing ruined. LA, Denver and San Francisco to name a few. They make the streets and parks unsafe. Crime and violent crime runs rampant wherever they set up. These are FACTS that cannot be denied.

None of these facts have anything to do with compassion. Rhey are just facts.

If we really had compassion for them, we would get them off the street and into facilities where they could be taken care of. Just providing them a house that they ruin or die from overdoses in or create unsafe environments may assuage your conscience, but it doesn't actually solve the problem. My ideas do.
You seem to be under the impression that housing programs involve simply putting them in a house and saying "have at it!" when that's not even close to how these programs work.

I am curious where you're getting your information from on the programs in LA, Denver, and San Francisco to support your claim that the housing has by and large been ruined, especially since your characterization of the Seattle program was principally a matter of the non-profits being overextended and unable to deal with the financial burden and nothing to do with the upkeep or successfulness of the program itself.
 
Upvote 0