Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Clare73 said:

Non responsive to the question. . .duplicitous. . .no basis for discussion.

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That is fascinating. You would rather close your eyes, plug your ears, and promote a lie, than answer honest questions about what Paul is actually teaching.

How duplicitous.

Studyman said:

That is fascinating. You would rather close your eyes, plug your ears, and promote a lie, than answer honest questions about what Paul is actually teaching.

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Non responsive to the question. . .duplicitous. . .no basis for discussion.

Bob S said:

It seems like every post from you creates a false dichotomy of others. Why is it that you, every chance you get, put people down by falsely accusing us of something? Actually, your method of debating is only degrading yourself.

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We have a history Bob. You have played these games with me, mocked me, demeaned me and refused to answer questions concerning your adopted religion for years. It's foolish for you to suddenly play the poor victim here. No doubt my frustration with your dishonest tactics over time has had an effect. I'm sure after trying to talk to the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time after 20 years, had it's effect as well. I think you can see this in the way HE talked to the mainstream preachers of His Time.

Nevertheless, perhaps you have a point, and I will certainly take it to heart. At the very minimum, I have given you an avenue to distract and divert from your own teaching that I responded to in the first place, to my shame.

If you believe that Paul is saying it was God's Commandments that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", then show me the Commandments and Ordinances that Jesus nailed to the Cross, which created this Wall.

My point is, according to what is actually written, Paul isn't saying it was God who called Faithful Gentiles "the Uncircumcised", nor was it God's Commandments and ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

It was the Commandments and ordinances of men the Pharisees and rebellious Jews taught for doctrines. This is undeniably true, at least according to what is written.

Bob S said:

Your statements remind me of when I was an SDA and was prompted to study the writings of Ellen White. I bought the nine volumes of the Testimonies written by her. Those volumes are full of sick accusations against her flock. Her scathing remarks reveal just how sick her mind really was.

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I'm sure you promoted her doctrines and philosophies with the same zeal you are now promoting your newly adopted religious teacher, whoever it is.

But I don't care about Miller, Russell, White, Calvin, Wesley or whoever your latest adopted teachers are.

I am speaking about your statement regarding whose Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". About whose Commandments and Ordinances created this wall between Faithful Jews and Faithful Non-Jews.

It is a popular teaching in the mainstream religions of this world, that it was God and His Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

I don't believe the Scriptures bear this philosophy out, based on what is actually written.

That is why I responed to yoour preaching in the first place.

Bob S said:

More ridiculous blubber.

I wonder why you are allowed to keep posting junk like this.

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I don't believe you would be any less abrasive, mocking or demeaning even if I were be less direct. Nevertheless, two wrongs don't make a right.

I appreciate the heads up.

SabbathBlessings said:

The New Covenant has God's laws now written in the heart Heb 8:10 not a law. Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12. Why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30

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Abraham kept law.
But Abraham......Isaac and Jacob....

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep … : Heb. keep to do them }
This covenant was made with those that were alive there that day.....Not Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor the 12 Patriarchs........
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Covenant circumcision: A covenant of love and mercy to them......
Deut 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.


Again the covenant of Circumcision is distinct from Horeb. It is a covenant of Mercy.

Horeb, is a covenant of works IF YOU DO, THEN I WILL KEEP
12 ¶ Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
A covenant of love, blessing, and prosperous
13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

The law was given to bring JUDGEMENT UPON GOD"S ENEMIES......

16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
17 If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations are more than I; how can I dispossess them?
18 Thou shalt not be afraid of them: but shalt well remember what the LORD thy God did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt;
19 The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out: so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.
20 Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

ralliann said:

Abraham kept law.
But Abraham......Isaac and Jacob....

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep … : Heb. keep to do them }
This covenant was made with those that were alive there that day.....Not Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor the 12 Patriarchs........
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

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That's right, the New Covenant is not the same agreement.

God said the New Covenant is established on better promises. It says nothing about being established on better/new laws. Man adds this when God didn't. Something I believe we need to be careful of.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

It still has God's laws, from written on stone to now written in the hearts of the NC believer. 1 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10

So we would be better served to focus on the better promises of the New Covenant instead of trying to force it to be about different laws when God promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle. Mat 5:18

Why its still a sin to break the least of these commandments in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7

ralliann said:

Covenant circumcision: A covenant of love and mercy to them......
Deut 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.


Again the covenant of Circumcision is distinct from Horeb. It is a covenant of Mercy.

Horeb, is a covenant of works IF YOU DO, THEN I WILL KEEP
12 ¶ Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
A covenant of love, blessing, and prosperous
13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

The law was given to bring JUDGEMENT UPON GOD"S ENEMIES......

16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
17 If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations are more than I; how can I dispossess them?
18 Thou shalt not be afraid of them: but shalt well remember what the LORD thy God did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt;
19 The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out: so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.
20 Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

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There is nothing about circumcision is the Ten Commandments. The role of circumcision was explained in detail here

ralliann said:

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

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Does faith void the law?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

ralliann said:

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

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Amen, when we subject ourselves to the Spirit we are free from the law of sin and death (condemnation of the law), not that we are free from the law of God and can now worship other gods or break the least of these commandments, at least according to Jesus Christ. Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 etc

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

SabbathBlessings said:

There are two rest in Hebrews not one. There's always been more than one rest in Scripture Exo 20:8-11 Exo 33:14 Hebrews is mainly quoting OT.

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There is one spoken of in particular

God's rest on the 7th day
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his workwhich he had made and he rested
< katapauo > on the seventh day from all his work which he had made


07673 שׁבת shabath shaw-bath’

a primitive root; v; [BDB-991b, BDB-992b] {See TWOT on 2323} {See TWOT on 2323 @@ "2323c"}

AV-cease 47, rest 11, away 3, fail 2, celebrate 1, misc 7; 71

The Greek LXX
God rested ( 2664) katapauo on the 7th day

SabbathBlessings said:

Regarding Joshua, yes the name translates into Jesus, but Joshua is not Jesus. He might be a type of Christ but he is not Christ.

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It is clearly about Joshua bringing them into the land, after all the men of war had died.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Greek word for rest in Heb 4:8 is not the same rest , has nothing to do with the Sabbath

katapauó: To cause to rest, to bring to a stop, to quiet
Original Word: καταπαύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katapauó
Pronunciation: kat-ap-ow'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap-ow'-o)
KJV: cease, (give) rest(-rain)
NASB: rested, given rest, restrained
Word Origin: [from G2596 (κατά - according) and G3973 (παύω - cease)]

1. to settle down
2. (literally) to colonize
3. (figuratively) to (cause to) desist

From kata and pauo; to settle down, i.e. (literally) to colonize, or (figuratively) to (cause to) desist -- cease, (give) rest(-rain).

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God did rest.......katapauo
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest <2664 katapauo> the seventh day from all his works.

2664 καταπαύω katapauo kat-ap-ow’-o

from 2596 and 3973; v; TDNT-3:627,419; {See TDNT 366}

AV-restrain 1, rest 1, give rest 1, cease 1; 4

1) to make quiet, to cause to be at rest, to grant rest
1a) to lead to a quiet abode
1b) to still, restrain, to cause (one striving to do something) to desist
2) to rest, take rest

Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested katapauo from all his work which God created and made.

So you have no case for your Greek.....

Kind of reminds me of this.....

Did the seventh day bless and sanctify his rest, or did his rest bless and sanctify the day?

Mt 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mt 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

ralliann said:

There is one spoken of in particular

God's rest on the 7th day
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his workwhich he had made and he rested
< katapauo > on the seventh day from all his work which he had made


07673 שׁבת shabath shaw-bath’

a primitive root; v; [BDB-991b, BDB-992b] {See TWOT on 2323} {See TWOT on 2323 @@ "2323c"}

AV-cease 47, rest 11, away 3, fail 2, celebrate 1, misc 7; 71

The Greek LXX
God rested ( 2664) katapauo on the 7th day



It is clearly about Joshua bringing them into the land, after all the men of war had died.

God did rest.......katapauo
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest <2664 katapauo> the seventh day from all his works.

2664 καταπαύω katapauo kat-ap-ow’-o

from 2596 and 3973; v; TDNT-3:627,419; {See TDNT 366}

AV-restrain 1, rest 1, give rest 1, cease 1; 4

1) to make quiet, to cause to be at rest, to grant rest
1a) to lead to a quiet abode
1b) to still, restrain, to cause (one striving to do something) to desist
2) to rest, take rest



Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested katapauo from all his work which God created and made.
Kind of reminds me of this.....

Did the seventh day bless and sanctify his rest, or did his rest bless and sanctify the day?
Mt 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mt 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

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Yes, God's rest has been available since the foundation of the world.

But so has the seventh day Sabbath, that is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. That God said is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

shabbath: Sabbath
Original Word: שַׁבָּת
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: shabbath
Pronunciation: shah-BAHTH
Phonetic Spelling: (shab-bawth')
KJV: (+ every) sabbath
NASB: sabbath, sabbaths, every sabbath
Word Origin: [intensive from H7673 (שָׁבַת - To cease)]

And both rests including the seventh day Sabbath remains in the NC

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

We enter God’s rest though faith and in doing so one would be keeping God’s commandments even the 4th commandment, the way God says. In God’s rest there is no rebellion or sin, just peace Isa 48:18 What Heb 3 and 4 is really about- not hardening our heart so we can hear the voice of God and not be deceived by sin, which is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 which is called rebellion and unbelief and not following the example of the Isralites who rebelled against God’s law and Sabbath Eze 20:13 and never entered their promised rest which we are told not to follow Heb 4:11 so we can enter into our Promise Land which is heaven Rev 22:14

Regarding Joshua, it was not Jesus who led the Israelites into the Promise Land, it was Joshua, being guided of course by God, which is Jesus made flesh . Joshua just happens to have the same name as Jesus, doesn't make him the same person, as the Scriptures clearly teach

Bob S said:

"I don't necessarily see the Ten Commandments being obsolete, merely relativized." FireDragon

Did you bother to read the following?

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

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Look at the context of that verse. It's not the Law that is done away with, but it's ministration of death.

SabbathBlessings said:

That's right, the New Covenant is not the same agreement.

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Right the carnal commands have been
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Circumcision of the heart.....

SabbathBlessings said:

God said the New Covenant is established on better promises. It says nothing about being established on better/new laws. Man adds this when God didn't. Something I believe we need to be careful of.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

It still has God's laws, from written on stone to now written in the hearts on the NC believer. 1 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10

So we would be better served to focus on the better promises of the New Covenant instead of trying to force it to be about better laws when God promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle. Mat 5:18

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Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

SabbathBlessings said:

Why its still a sin to break the least of these commandments in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7

There is nothing about circumcision is the Ten Commandments. The role of circumcision was explained in detail here

Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Your hypothesis to prove. I’m curious, how many laws do you propose that there actually are? Again, you are promoting a religion who preaches to the world that God created Laws impossible to obey, lied to His People who trusted Him, by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered men by the...

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Does faith void the law?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

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Right circumcision is law isn't it?

SabbathBlessings said:

Amen, when we subject ourselves to the Spirit we are free from the law of sin and death (condemnation of the law), not that we are free from the law of God and can now worship other gods or break the least of these commandments, at least according to Jesus Christ. Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 etc

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Right because
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Dt 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

SabbathBlessings said:

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

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See the above.
The issue I see in most of these discussions is Not recognizing The promises made to Abraham were by the covenant of Circumcision, Not Sinai/Horeb.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, God's rest has been available since the foundation of the world.

But so has the seventh day Sabbath, that is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. That God said is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

shabbath: Sabbath
Original Word: שַׁבָּת
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: shabbath
Pronunciation: shah-BAHTH
Phonetic Spelling: (shab-bawth')
KJV: (+ every) sabbath
NASB: sabbath, sabbaths, every sabbath
Word Origin: [intensive from H7673 (שָׁבַת - To cease)]

And both rests including the seventh day Sabbath remains in the NC

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

We enter God’s rest though faith and in doing so one would be keeping God’s commandments even the 4th commandment, the way God says. In God’s rest there is no rebellion or sin, just peace Isa 48:18 What Heb 3 and 4 is really about- not hardening our heart so we can hear the voice of God and not be deceived by sin, which is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 which is called rebellion and unbelief and not following the example of the Isralites who rebelled against God’s law and Sabbath Eze 20:13 and never entered their promised rest which we are told not to follow Heb 4:11 so we can enter into our Promise Land which is heaven Rev 22:14

Regarding Joshua, it was not Jesus who led the Israelites into the Promise Land, it was Joshua, being guided of course by God, which is Jesus made flesh . Joshua just happens to have the same name as Jesus, doesn't make him the same person, as the Scriptures clearly teach

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Gods rest comes through Christ
Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(373 ἀναπαύω anapauous)
Tunnel vision in Moses and the law doesn't allow.

Noah: like figure
Ge 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort (di anapauous) concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Is 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

ralliann said:

Gods rest comes through Christ
Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(373 ἀναπαύω anapauous)
Tunnel vision in Moses and the law doesn't allow.

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You are obviously not reading my posts, I already addressed this, of course God’s rest comes through Christ, God is Christ so you’re not making an argument I am making. But why do you think God would give someone rest when their heart is harden and they refuse to obey God’s law, we are told that is the condition of the lost Rom 8:7 and cannot please God Rom 8:8 and the reason the Israelites never entered their rest where we are told not to follow their example Heb 4:11

There is no Scripture that says God gives us rest so we can continue sinning and breaking God’s law. This is a man-made idea just like the Ten Commandments is Moses law, when God claimed them as His, not Moses, in His own written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 , not the testimony of Moses. Moses never took credit for God’s law Exo 32:16 and he was there- how is it that we know better than God’s own Testimony and the testimony of Moses? I know this is a popular teaching, but it’s actually something we were warned of. 2 Tim 3:5

SabbathBlessings said:

I have already addressed circumcsion, please read my post and address what I have written. There is no circumcsion in the Ten Commandments. The Sabbath commandment started at Creation Exo 20:11- no circumcision. Circumcision wasn’t added until after the fall

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The Sabbath started HERE.
Testing their faith...

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

SabbathBlessings said:

Why are you associating animal sacrifices fleshy ordinances Heb 10:1-22 Heb 9:10-15 with the the holy day of the Lord thy God Isa 58:13 that is a commandment of God, written by the finger of God, where God gives His faithful His blessings Isa 56:2 and sanctifies us Eze 20:12 how is this a fleshy ordinances? Please use Scripture that states this. The Ten Commandments is the description of sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 the fleshy ordinances/animal sacrifices was the OT prescription of sin until the Seed came as the Scriptures clearly show Heb 9:10-15 Heb 10:1-22

To claim the Sabbath is a fleshy ordnance, seems to be in direct conflict with the Testimony of God Isa 31:18 which is where I place my loyalty.

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The fleshy command has to do with HEIRS OF The covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh.

SabbathBlessings said:

You are obviously not reading my posts, I already addressed this, of course God’s rest comes from Christ, so you’re not making an arguement I am making.

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I am not sticking to the tunnel vision of your posts. You make wrong statments about greek words etc. Then the rest of your enormously long post based upon that error.

ralliann said:

The Sabbath started HERE.
Testing their faith...

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

The fleshy command has to do with HEIRS OF The covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh.

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I choose to believe God when the Sabbath started, He spoke it He wrote it, and since He is our Creator of both man and the Sabbath and everything else, I will continue to place my faith in Him.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Circumcision started after the fall, not before like the weekly Sabbath, God’s holy day.

SabbathBlessings said:

I choose to believe God when the Sabbath started, He spoke it He wrote it, and since He is our Creator of both man and the Sabbath and everything else, I will continue to place my faith in Him.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

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There was no command, as you said. Geesh! Besides we were talking about HEBREWS and the REST foreshadowed in Joshua.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, God's rest has been available since the foundation of the world.

But so has the seventh day Sabbath, that is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. That God said is on the seventh day Exo 20:10

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

shabbath: Sabbath
Original Word: שַׁבָּת
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: shabbath
Pronunciation: shah-BAHTH
Phonetic Spelling: (shab-bawth')
KJV: (+ every) sabbath
NASB: sabbath, sabbaths, every sabbath
Word Origin: [intensive from H7673 (שָׁבַת - To cease)]

And both rests including the seventh day Sabbath remains in the NC

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

We enter God’s rest though faith and in doing so one would be keeping God’s commandments even the 4th commandment, the way God says. In God’s rest there is no rebellion or sin, just peace Isa 48:18 What Heb 3 and 4 is really about- not hardening our heart so we can hear the voice of God and not be deceived by sin, which is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 which is called rebellion and unbelief and not following the example of the Isralites who rebelled against God’s law and Sabbath Eze 20:13 and never entered their promised rest which we are told not to follow Heb 4:11 so we can enter into our Promise Land which is heaven Rev 22:14

Regarding Joshua, it was not Jesus who led the Israelites into the Promise Land, it was Joshua, being guided of course by God, which is Jesus made flesh . Joshua just happens to have the same name as Jesus, doesn't make him the same person, as the Scriptures clearly teach

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same sabbath rest offers in both covenants (old &new) but it has different days. (7th day -old covenant & "Today" new covenant).

Don't judge or condemn people if they don't follow the "old way" of the letter.

SabbathBlessings said:

No Scripture says the Sabbath is today. God said it is the seventh day Exo 20:10 in His written and spoken Testiomy Exo31:10 and there is no greater than He. That’s why in the NC His faithful diciples still kept the Sabbath according to the commandment Luke 23:56


The counterfeit always comes after the original and Jesus warned us about being deceived.

Scripture calls us today to not harden our heart to the deceifultness of sin and being in rebellion to God. No Scripture says the Sabbath is now today.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

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Heb 4:7..God set a certain day calling it "Today"..

verse 8..if Joshua had given them rest God would not have spoken later about "another" Day.

Joshua couldn't be able to give Israel the rest on the 7th day as in the commandment.

pasifika said:

Heb 4:7..God set a certain day calling it "Today"..

verse 8..if Joshua had given them rest God would not have spoken later about "another" Day.

Joshua couldn't be able to give Israel the rest on the 7th day as in the commandment.

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None of those verses say Today is the Sabbath,

You also cut off the context for some reason, which was repeating what I already posted from Hebrews 3 which is a quote from the OT.

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

The "another day" is today , if we hear His voice, calling us out of the deceitfulness of sin and rebellion to Him today. We do not know what tomorrow brings, Today we need to hear His voice and not harden our hearts.

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.