Hot Button Issue: Can You Be Pro-Choice and Be a Christian?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Saturday at 2:33 PM

public hermit said:
I think that's an unhelpful approach. Firstly, only God can make those kinds of judgments. Secondly, those kinds of judgments create a culture of fear and shame so that people don't feel they can be open and honest about their struggles. A person can be against abortion without taking the further step of condemnation.

Is abortion not shameful?

All Becomes New · Saturday at 2:36 PM

trophy33 said:
Q:
How would you rate this article, regarding medical accuracy: Is the Pill an Abortifacient? What does Birth Control Do?

1-10, 1 is the lowest. Provide a very short list of issues, if you find any.

A:
I would rate the article's medical accuracy as 3 out of 10.

Key issues with the article:
Misrepresentation of "abortifacient" action: <long text left out>

Use of outdated and biased terminology: <long text left out>

Lack of balanced evidence and selective citation: <long text left out>

Conflation of contraception and abortion: <long text left out>

Unsubstantiated claims about pharmaceutical companies: <long text left out>

Inconclusive statements on birth control use during pregnancy: <long text left out>

Overall, the article mixes some factual information with misleading interpretations, biased language, and controversial claims that do not align with current medical understanding and guidelines.

Thanks for your opinion. I will be sure to file it away with all the other opinions.

A New Dawn said:
A eunich is a man who no longer has his testicles. Nothing more, nothing less. Christ was NOT a eunich.

But even if He was one, to suggest you are better than Him because you have passion is absurd. Christ was the example in ALL things.

So, you think Jesus was saying it's permissible for a man to cut his own genitalia off for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? That is the implication of what you are saying.

2PhiloVoid said:
I've been having essentially "safer" sex for about 31 years now. Even with that, the "problem" is not solved by merely appealing to a prescriptive prohibition in relation to procreation and the sexual act. Such an appeal is just too simple of an assessment about the nature of biological sexuality among human beings.

I did not say anything about prohibition. I said we should educate people.

2PhiloVoid said:
The truth is, there are more than a few complications in your assessment that, as I've already inferred, have a part to play in the unfortunate outcome for any individual woman deciding to have an abortion. These additional social factors need to be taken into account and not summarily dismissed in the ongoing process of evaluating any one situation.

Again, I am all about raising awareness that abortion kills a defenseless human (because that is literally the definition of abortion). So, by all means, let's get those young ladies debating an abortion an ultrasound.

2PhiloVoid said:
And on some things, I (we) do INDEED know more than the ancients. That's just the way it is.

Not when it comes to first principles of morality. We are terribly screwed up today compared to 300 years ago.

2PhiloVoid said:
So, with all of this in mind, what do you plan to discuss with this woman whom you've mentioned in the OP?

I plan to ask her what she thinks Jesus thinks of abortion.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 3:03 PM

All Becomes New said:
So, you think Jesus was saying it's permissible for a man to cut his own genitalia off for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? That is the implication of what you are saying.

I am telling you what a eunich is. It is YOU who used it in this manner.

And while I don’t think Jesus condoned or instructed people to take those kind of actions, it was a common occurrence in those days to achieve the desired outcome. Back in times past it was not unheard of for a male singer to eunichize himself so he was able to reach notes that were usually reserved for a female voice. Given this, I can see how someone might carry those words to that extreme. You have to realize that was a VERY different time with VERY different customs.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 3:08 PM

All Becomes New said:
I plan to ask her what she thinks Jesus thinks of abortion.

I hope you don’t plan on jumping all over her when she doesn’t respond the way you’d prefer. If I had known you were going to be this hostile I’d have never shared my experience on this thread.

All Becomes New · Saturday at 3:12 PM

A New Dawn said:
I am telling you what a eunich is. It is YOU who used it in this manner.

And while I don’t think Jesus condoned or instructed people to take those kind of actions, it was a common occurrence in those days to achieve the desired outcome. Back in times past it was not unheard of for a male singer to eunichize himself so he was able to reach notes that were usually reserved for a female voice. Given this, I can see how someone might carry those words to that extreme. You have to realize that was a VERY different time with VERY different customs.

The problem with your view is that Jesus says they do it in pursuit of the Kingdom of Heaven. Not because they want a higher vocal range.

A New Dawn said:
I hope you don’t plan on jumping all over her when she doesn’t respond the way you’d prefer. If I had known you were going to be this hostile I’d have never shared my experience on this thread.

What have I said that is "hostile?"

I've said you don't understand what I am saying. That is a fact.

I will be gentle on her, don't worry. She is my friend and I don't want to hurt her.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 3:18 PM

All Becomes New said:
The problem with your view is that Jesus says they do it in pursuit of the Kingdom of Heaven. Not because they want a higher vocal range.

You know, when you are confronted with information you don’t know (which appears to be quite a bit), your first act is to lash out instead of being humble enough to admit that you could be wrong and make the effort to study the issue out and, heaven forbid, actually try to work the new information you’ve received into your belief system.

I really feel bad for that young woman you say you’re talking to.

2PhiloVoid · Saturday at 3:22 PM

All Becomes New said:
I did not say anything about prohibition. I said we should educate people.

I don't think all of the fuller connotations possibly inherent in your apparent view of 'sex ed' are being cited here. From one angle, I agree generally agree with you: people ideally should not have sex until they're ready to be parents.

Yet, coming from another angle, there's an old traditional perspective that takes this general notion and applies it with vigorous inflation. I don't think that perspective is sensible, useful or even impermissible.

All Becomes New said:
Again, I am all about raising awareness that abortion kills a defenseless human (because that is literally the definition of abortion). So, by all means, let's get those young ladies debating an abortion an ultrasound.

Sure. But let's ALSO, by all means, bring the men responsible for those pregnancies to the judgement bar since they are a part of the problem. In fact, in many cases, they are the prior cause of the problem.

All Becomes New said:
Not when it comes to first principles of morality. We are terribly screwed up today compared to 300 years ago.

First principles of morality? Which ethical framework out of a dozen are you referring to in alluding to these "first principles"?

All Becomes New said:
I plan to ask her what she thinks Jesus thinks of abortion.

Ok. And when she says to you either that, "I don't know," or "I don't care at this point in my life," how will you respond to either of these answers?

A New Dawn · Saturday at 3:23 PM

All Becomes New said:
What have I said that is "hostile?"

I've said you don't understand what I am saying. That is a fact.

I will be gentle on her, don't worry. She is my friend and I don't want to hurt her.

Just about everything you’ve said has been hostile, from accusing me of being an atheist because I’m a nurse to Jesus not being a good example like you because He has no passion to accusing me of accusing Jesus of making people mutilate themselves. You truly have no idea how you come across if you think there is nothing wrong with any of those things you said.

All Becomes New · Saturday at 4:02 PM

A New Dawn said:
You know, when you are confronted with information you don’t know (which appears to be quite a bit), your first act is to lash out instead of being humble enough to admit that you could be wrong and make the effort to study the issue out and, heaven forbid, actually try to work the new information you’ve received into your belief system.

I really feel bad for that young woman you say you’re talking to.

A New Dawn said:
Just about everything you’ve said has been hostile, from accusing me of being an atheist because I’m a nurse to Jesus not being a good example like you because He has no passion to accusing me of accusing Jesus of making people mutilate themselves. You truly have no idea how you come across if you think there is nothing wrong with any of those things you said.

Your perception of reality is very flawed. You don't understand the arguments I am making, even after I clarify them to you twice.

All Becomes New · Saturday at 4:08 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
I don't think all of the fuller connotations possibly inherent in your apparent view of 'sex ed' are being cited here. From one angle, I agree generally agree with you: people ideally should not have sex until they're ready to be parents.

Yet, coming from another angle, there's an old traditional perspective that takes this general notion and applies it with vigorous inflation. I don't think that perspective is sensible, useful or even impermissible.

This is a very confusing last word. I don't understand what you are saying.

2PhiloVoid said:
Sure. But let's ALSO, by all means, bring the men responsible for those pregnancies to the judgement bar since they are a part of the problem. In fact, in many cases, they are the prior cause of the problem.

If we are going to hold the men responsible for walking out on the girl, we are going to have to provide some consequences for the woman as well.

2PhiloVoid said:
First principles of morality? Which ethical framework out of a dozen are you referring to in alluding to these "first principles"?

The Bible, mostly.

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. And when she says to you either that, "I don't know," or "I don't care at this point in my life," how will you respond to either of these answers?

Then I give her space and let her think about it. Then, at some other point, I will bring it up again.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 4:11 PM

All Becomes New said:
Your perception of reality is very flawed. You don't understand the arguments I am making, even after I clarify them to you twice.

I understand all too well. You don’t like to be told you’re wrong, even when you’re wrong. I’ve been around here a good long time and have seen a good number of posts that express fantastical claims, but never have I seen anyone be so wrong about so much and still act like they are the person who could do, or know, no wrong and try to pass off their own wrongness onto someone else.

I’ll be praying for that girl so that when you approach her with all your misinformation, as well-intentioned as it might be, that she is able to see beyond the errors to your heart, which I really hope is in the right place.

All Becomes New · Saturday at 4:49 PM

A New Dawn said:
I understand all too well. You don’t like to be told you’re wrong, even when you’re wrong. I’ve been around here a good long time and have seen a good number of posts that express fantastical claims, but never have I seen anyone be so wrong about so much and still act like they are the person who could do, or know, no wrong and try to pass off their own wrongness onto someone else.

I’ll be praying for that girl so that when you approach her with all your misinformation, as well-intentioned as it might be, that she is able to see beyond the errors to your heart, which I really hope is in the right place.

I think what is going on here is that I am saying things that you have never heard before, so I am wrong by default.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 5:05 PM

All Becomes New said:
I think what is going on here is that I am saying things that you have never heard before, so I am wrong by default.

LOL. What is going on is that you were plain-old wrong on multiple occasions and don’t want to admit it. So, yes, you might say you said things I’ve never heard before, and in that one instance, you’d be right. That doesn’t mean you weren’t wrong when I confronted you about them.

All Becomes New · Saturday at 5:56 PM

A New Dawn said:
LOL. What is going on is that you were plain-old wrong on multiple occasions and don’t want to admit it. So, yes, you might say you said things I’ve never heard before, and in that one instance, you’d be right. That doesn’t mean you weren’t wrong when I confronted you about them.

You in no way demonstrated that I was wrong. Was I wrong about Jesus being a Eunuch? No. Was I wrong about The Pill creating an inhospitable womb for a fetus to develop? You questioned my source (subjective), but you never challenged the actual claim that The Pill causes an inhospitable womb. Usually, when a person challenges the source rather than the claim, they are on the losing side of the debate because they are trying to discredit something based on a technicality rather than the substance of the argument.

A New Dawn · Saturday at 6:42 PM

All Becomes New said:
You in no way demonstrated that I was wrong. Was I wrong about Jesus being a Eunuch? No. Was I wrong about The Pill creating an inhospitable womb for a fetus to develop? You questioned my source (subjective), but you never challenged the actual claim that The Pill causes an inhospitable womb. Usually, when a person challenges the source rather than the claim, they are on the losing side of the debate because they are trying to discredit something based on a technicality rather than the substance of the argument.

Yes, you were wrong about Jesus being a eunich. Jesus, I believe though it is not stated otherwise, had all his bodily parts.

No, the birth control pill does NOT create an inhospitable womb. It prevents ovulation and creates a barrier to keep sperm from approaching the egg, if one is there.
The morning after pill, not considered contraception, is what creates an inhospitable womb.

And I did confront you about the pill and you called me an atheist because of it. I will go back and get a link to the post.

Hot Button Issue: Can You Be Pro-Choice and Be a Christian?

Trying to find a solution doesn’t mean compromising your beliefs. You can’t look to Jesus’ examples and come up with anything? You mean trying to find a compromise. That is essentially what you mean. I will not compromise my convictions. The solution is to educate people that if they don't...

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chevyontheriver · Saturday at 6:58 PM

public hermit said:
I explained why I think it is unhelpful in the post to which you responded. I'll just refer to that again.

On a completely unrelated note, I often get you confused with @chevyontheriver It's partly the avatar throwing me off, but it's also my bad eyes/small phone.

It’s a good icon/avitar and I’ve had it for several years now. No plans to give it up. But I think it’s good enough that several people can use it. So I’m not asking anybody else to change it either. But sorry for the confusion.

FreeinChrist · Saturday at 7:15 PM

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Hot Button Issue: Can You Be Pro-Choice and Be a Christian?

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