Hot Button Issue: Can You Be Pro-Choice and Be a Christian?

[PloverWing]

Agree to disagree about human sacrifice, or

Human sacrifice is irrelevant here.

Agree to disagree about the underlying other theologies related to being pro-life?

This is more to the point. One way to build a case for the absolute anti-abortion position is to begin from a position of pure pacifism. Some Christians believe that it is wrong to take a human life under any circumstances: no war, no death penalty, no violence in self-defense. I respect this position, and I think that opposing all abortions is consistent with it.

Other Christians think that violence, while never good, is an acceptable option in some situations. And here we start to have disagreement, among people of good will. Which situations, and how much violence, etc.?

Ethical debate can be useful, and all of us should think through our moral values and choices. But there's also value to respecting that the other person may well have thought through the issues as carefully as you have, even if they've come to different conclusions.

 

[All Becomes New]

To give my own two cents on the current discussion, if there is nothing visibly wrong with the fetus and nothing visibly wrong with the mother, the mother should deliver every single time.

I said what I said.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Human sacrifice is irrelevant here.

Abortion is human sacrifice. So totally relevant.

This is more to the point. One way to build a case for the absolute anti-abortion position is to begin from a position of pure pacifism. Some Christians believe that it is wrong to take a human life under any circumstances: no war, no death penalty, no violence in self-defense. I respect this position, and I think that opposing all abortions is consistent with it.

Other Christians think that violence, while never good, is an acceptable option in some situations. And here we start to have disagreement, among people of good will. Which situations, and how much violence, etc.?

Ethical debate can be useful, and all of us should think through our moral values and choices. But there's also value to respecting that the other person may well have thought through the issues as carefully as you have, even if they've come to different conclusions.

People by nature are not consistent though. If you find one, it's incredibly rare.

 

[All Becomes New]

To give my own two cents on the current discussion, if there is nothing visibly wrong with the fetus and nothing visibly wrong with the mother, the mother should deliver every single time.

I said what I said.

To clarify, anything physically wrong with the fetus or the mother. Not talking about subjective experiences of not wanting to be a mother, so it is "harmful" or some nonsense like that.

 

[Apple Sky]

There is a woman I know who is Pro-Choice. She is a Christian. I know this is a hotly debated thing. My perspective is that she may not know why the Pro-Choice perspective is wrong fully. I am trying to talk to her about it. It's a very heavy topic for her as she has had an abortion herself.

She has changed her perspective on some things. I told her watching shows about mediums is bad, and she stopped watching them. I've also told her to stop doing sports gambling, and she stopped that as well. But I also understand that I am working against decades of propaganda. She has been secular most of her life, and I live in MN, which has some of the worst laws about abortion there are. I'm thankful she is willing to even have the conversation in the first place. But I have to "weigh" how much I share with her and when.

If anyone has any advice on what the gentlest way to make the case for Pro-Life is, I'd love to hear it.

View attachment 367088

Could this women repent & still be saved ?

 

[All Becomes New]

Could this women repent & still be saved ?

Yes, of course! Why wouldn't she be able to repent and be saved?

I think she is a Christian right now. I can't know that for sure, but there are many signs of regeneration in her life.

That is what makes this problem so difficult. IDK why she is pro-choice exactly, but it probably has a lot to do with the propaganda she has been fed her whole life.

 

[A New Dawn]

To clarify, anything physically wrong with the fetus or the mother. Not talking about subjective experiences of not wanting to be a mother, so it is "harmful" or some nonsense like that.

There are more things to choice than abortion and it’s really downright disgusting that a procedure that kills an innocent child is being used as birth control. If someone doesn’t want to be a mother, she should do all she can to prevent the act of conception. It’s too doggone easy to get real birth control that nobody should rely on abortion because they were too lazy to get the real thing. The failure of birth control is so minimal, and the pregnancy rate as the result of rape/incest is so minimal, leaving the vast majority of them as birth control.

I do want to be specific that this discussion is regarding elective abortion. Those cases where “the life of the mother is in danger” are almost negligible, in in those rare instances, most can be delivered by cesarean section with less stress to the mother than an actual abortion. Those few cases, like ectopic pregnancies, are not considered elective, but are emergency surgery cases.

In this study, only 11.5% of the women applying for abortion used safe birth control methods, the rest used unsafe methods. It’s not acceptable.

Reasons for pregnancy termination: negligence or failure of contraception? - PubMed

The women claimed to have enough information about contraceptives, and postcoital contraception was also familiar, but the knowledge on how to use them in practice was inadequate. Irregular use and breaks in contraception were common. Despite the data based on Pearl indices, pills failed twice...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[public hermit]

One could ask if they were truly Christians or did they grow up in a religious home where they, themselves didn’t have a relationship with God. Calling yourself Christian because your parents were Christian doesn’t make you Christian.

I think that's an unhelpful approach. Firstly, only God can make those kinds of judgments. Secondly, those kinds of judgments create a culture of fear and shame so that people don't feel they can be open and honest about their struggles. A person can be against abortion without taking the further step of condemnation.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think that's an unhelpful approach. Firstly, only God can make those kinds of judgments. Secondly, those kinds of judgments create a culture of fear and shame so that people don't feel they can be open and honest about their struggles. A person can be against abortion without taking the further step of condemnation.

How is it unhelpful? The article quoted stated that these people were Christian, my comment related to the vast number of people that claim to be Christian because they were raised in a Christian household. I am not accusing any specific person, only pointing to a trend that is common in people. And if you want to bring God into it, Jesus did say that many who say Lord, Lord, will not enter the kingdom of God. I don’t even know why they would ask that question to begin with.

 

[All Becomes New]

There are more things to choice than abortion and it’s really downright disgusting that a procedure that kills an innocent child is being used as birth control. If someone doesn’t want to be a mother, she should do all she can to prevent the act of conception. It’s too doggone easy to get real birth control that nobody should rely on abortion because they were too lazy to get the real thing. The failure of birth control is so minimal, and the pregnancy rate as the result of rape/incest is so minimal, leaving the vast majority of them as birth control.

I do want to be specific that this discussion is regarding elective abortion. Those cases where “the life of the mother is in danger” are almost negligible, in in those rare instances, most can be delivered by cesarean section with less stress to the mother than an actual abortion. Those few cases, like ectopic pregnancies, are not considered elective, but are emergency surgery cases.

In this study, only 11.5% of the women applying for abortion used safe birth control methods, the rest used unsafe methods. It’s not acceptable.

Reasons for pregnancy termination: negligence or failure of contraception? - PubMed

The women claimed to have enough information about contraceptives, and postcoital contraception was also familiar, but the knowledge on how to use them in practice was inadequate. Irregular use and breaks in contraception were common. Despite the data based on Pearl indices, pills failed twice...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Well, I am also against birth control.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, of course! Why wouldn't she be able to repent and be saved?

I think she is a Christian right now. I can't know that for sure, but there are many signs of regeneration in her life.

That is what makes this problem so difficult. IDK why she is pro-choice exactly, but it probably has a lot to do with the propaganda she has been fed her whole life.

Simply (and gently) encourage her to think about what Jesus would likely have said about abortion and the value of the human life He created. And if she doesn't understand it because her pain is too great, then let it be. It's not our job to convince people of what their emotions can't handle today.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, I am also against birth control.

I guess your beliefs create a Catch 22, then.

Sure in the ideal world, perhaps the future peaceable kingdom, for instance, we would all be whom God intended us to be, but in the real fallen world, surrounded by fallen people, we have to realize that fallen people are in rebellion to God and are not going to abide by His vision.

Having your beliefs is one thing, I have them too, but forcing others to abide by them is another. But you are creating a situation where you expect fallen people to abide by unabideable rules, and then not providing a way to at least come into some compliance with your demands.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, I am also against birth control.

It's probably best to take one issue at a time, per thread. Personally, I don't see any problem with minimal birth control, and the first person who attempts to use the ol' "onan" retort will get promptly booted out into the corn field for applying twisted hermeneutics.

 

[All Becomes New]

I guess your beliefs create a Catch 22, then.

Sure in the ideal world, perhaps the future peaceable kingdom, for instance, we would all be whom God intended us to be, but in the real fallen world, surrounded by fallen people, we have to realize that fallen people are in rebellion to God and are not going to abide by His vision.

Having your beliefs is one thing, I have them too, but forcing others to abide by them is another. But you are creating a situation where you expect fallen people to abide by unabideable rules, and then not providing a way to at least come into some compliance with your demands.

Expediency is no substitute for what is true.

 

[public hermit]

How is it unhelpful?

I explained why I think it is unhelpful in the post to which you responded. I'll just refer to that again.

On a completely unrelated note, I often get you confused with @chevyontheriver It's partly the avatar throwing me off, but it's also my bad eyes/small phone.

 

[A New Dawn]

Expediency is no substitute for what is true.

I’d hold more optimism for your POV if you attempt come up with a solution to the problem rather then just trying to force your rigid beliefs on someone. We are all looking for some solution. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[ARBITER01]

I guess your beliefs create a Catch 22, then.

Sure in the ideal world, perhaps the future peaceable kingdom, for instance, we would all be whom God intended us to be, but in the real fallen world, surrounded by fallen people, we have to realize that fallen people are in rebellion to God and are not going to abide by His vision.

Having your beliefs is one thing, I have them too, but forcing others to abide by them is another. But you are creating a situation where you expect fallen people to abide by unabideable rules, and then not providing a way to at least come into some compliance with your demands.

Exactly.

Abortion is a secular/worldly thing. People are going to do what they want to do, no matter what our beliefs are. If they want to get abortion pills, they will find a way to get them.

 

[A New Dawn]

I explained why I think it is unhelpful in the post to which you responded. I'll just refer to that again.

On a completely unrelated note, I often get you confused with @chevyontheriver It's partly the avatar throwing me off, but it's also my bad eyes/small phone.

I’ve run into that problem myself with the avatar. I see it and read the post and wonder when I said something like that.

I hope you read the rest of my response which culminated with I don’t know why they ask that question since it doesn’t seem there is any motivation behind it except to point fingers at Christianity (and add hypocrisy to the equation.)

 

[All Becomes New]

I’d hold more optimism for your POV if you attempt come up with a solution to the problem rather then just trying to force your rigid beliefs on someone. We are all looking for some solution. What are your thoughts on that?

Compromising on the truth is not loving. It sends people to hell.

Amazon.com

 

[A New Dawn]

Compromising on the truth is not loving. It sends people to hell.

Amazon.com

So, again, you seem intent to foist rigid beliefs on people instead of trying to find a solution. Got it.

Trying to find a solution doesn’t mean compromising your beliefs. You can’t look to Jesus’ examples and come up with anything?