The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

The Liturgist · Jul 5, 2025

caffeinated.hermit said:
I'm kind of in the same boat as you guys. I'd say... there's a maybe 80% to 90% chance the Catholic Church is "it". Just makes sense. It's all over Scripture. Mary being the Woman of Revelation (compare Psalm 2 to Rev. 12), salvation being about faith plus discipleship, Peter being the rock...

Like.... the New Testament, if taken at face value minus any bias is maybe 70% Catholic-leaning. Objectively. Not everything is in there, mind you. But you get these clues that, at the very least, indicate that some of the most intense Protestant bias is not genuinely Scriptural, it's just anti-Catholic.

I'm waiting for the day when everyone gets back together. I have a great deal of hope that could be within our lifetimes. That would be awesome. There's been some really, really interesting Protestant scholarship indicating that Sola Fide may be wearing away a bit among some thinkers. Matthew W. Bates and Paul A. Rainbow, to name two.

The EO are pretty awesome, too. Reading the Philokalia right now. My thing is, when you meet humble, sincere, gracious followers of Christ, they've all got something kind of neat and special about them. I've met Baptists, Catholics, EO, and Lutherans who all fit that profile.

You should also check out the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians.

I believe that before reunion between the Eastern Orthodox and the West can be considered, first the process of reunification with the Oriental Orthodox, which has already started, should be completed. In the interim we should continue to receive Western converts and grow the Western Rite Orthodox Vicarates for people who prefer worshipping in the Western liturgical rites, and try to persuade more churches to unite with us.

Indeed, at the turn of the century, powerful factions in the Episcopal Church tried to engineer its accession to the Eastern Orthodox Communion, thanks to very constructive dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church in North America (which at the time was the canonical Orthodox church in the Americas; the current situation of overlapping jurisdictions and so on arose after the confusion and terrible persecutions that occurred due to the Bolshevik coup in Russia and the annexation of other Christian countries into the USSR.

What the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have in common is a shared history of persecution both by Muslims and Communists (indeed Armenia was oppressed by the Soviets for 70 years, and then Soviet border designations led to the expansionist Azerbaijani state beginning a religously-motivated Islamist persecution of Armenians in which, since 1991, various Armenian lands have been annexed and all traces of Armenian Christianity, such as the Katchkars, or ornate stone carved crosses, have been destroyed with the iconoclastic violence we have come to expect from Islamist terrorists. The problem is that Azerbaijan is not an internationally sanctioned terrorist organization but rather is being allowed to get away with this, and is treated like a legitimate government, despite engaging in conduct akin to that of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

The Liturgist · Jul 5, 2025

chevyontheriver said:
In post 119 "I encourage all genuine brothers and sisters with a personal relationship with Jesus to flee from her."

So not word for word,

Still, that’s pretty offensive.

chevyontheriver · Jul 5, 2025

The Liturgist said:
You should also check out the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians.

I believe that before reunion between the Eastern Orthodox and the West can be considered, first the process of reunification with the Oriental Orthodox, which has already started, should be completed. In the interim we should continue to receive Western converts and grow the Western Rite Orthodox Vicarates for people who prefer worshipping in the Western liturgical rites, and try to persuade more churches to unite with us.

Indeed, at the turn of the century, powerful factions in the Episcopal Church tried to engineer its accession to the Eastern Orthodox Communion, thanks to very constructive dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church in North America (which at the time was the canonical Orthodox church in the Americas; the current situation of overlapping jurisdictions and so on arose after the confusion and terrible persecutions that occurred due to the Bolshevik coup in Russia and the annexation of other Christian countries into the USSR.

What the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have in common is a shared history of persecution both by Muslims and Communists (indeed Armenia was oppressed by the Soviets for 70 years, and then Soviet border designations led to the expansionist Azerbaijani state beginning a religously-motivated Islamist persecution of Armenians in which, since 1991, various Armenian lands have been annexed and all traces of Armenian Christianity, such as the Katchkars, or ornate stone carved crosses, have been destroyed with the iconoclastic violence we have come to expect from Islamist terrorists. The problem is that Azerbaijan is not an internationally sanctioned terrorist organization but rather is being allowed to get away with this, and is treated like a legitimate government, despite engaging in conduct akin to that of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Hoping the Orthodox can get over their kerfuffles, which does seem like a necessary next step in any grand reunion of Christianity. Meanwhile the Catholic Church has an opportunity to heal the last 13 years.

boughtwithaprice · Jul 5, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
Oh there’s so many erroneous posts to address here but in respect of the OP I’ll just keep my mouth shut.

If you really wished to keep your mouth shut, you would not have posted.

You obviously have a viewpoint, but apparently do not think it would be heard. How do you know yours is correct?

caffeinated.hermit · Jul 5, 2025

The Liturgist said:
You should also check out the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians.

Thanks, The Liturgist! I had a lot of respect for Pope Shenouda III, he seemed like a good, wise man and a devout soul. Good leader, too. We'll see. Pope Leo XIV seems to be interested in getting things back together, but you can't rush or force this stuff.

I have met many, many Anglicans who strike me as optimal EO candidates. Some Lutherans, too. It's interesting, but when you quiz people more and more on their soteriology, they're coming up with answers that sound a heck of a lot like theosis. There are some good, wise Anglicans out there, too, and I'm sure it's tough to be a conservative / moderate in that church right now.

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Sure, there are people who sin in all churches no doubt. Doctrine is what sets churches apart. There are many people who claim to be SDA's who choose not to follow our church beliefs, just like I am sure its the same for all churches.

Doesn't the CC claim the pope as infallible yet has done all these things, I know are not coming from the God of the Bible.

The RCC teaches the Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra- from the chair- on faith and morals. It only occurred once when Pope Pius XII declared The Assumption of the Virgin Mary in 1950. It’s incredibly, incredibly rare, and was defined at Vatican I in the 1800s.

And no, no Catholic worships the Virgin Mary, or the Pope, or icons or statues. And those in heaven are very much alive not just “asleep.” We have a huge devotion and love for Jesus.

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

Fervent said:
I am reminded of Jesus' words to the church at Laodicea, that many seem to believe themselves rich when in fact they are naked and blind.

Too many find themselves proud of so-called knowledge and rather than allowing their works to bring shame to those who are mislead attempt to cut them with their tongues. I find myself so busy trying to keep my eyes on the Lord I don't have time to worry about anyone else, and am amazed at those who find the time to fault-find.

Thank you. I try to humble myself before our Lord, daily.

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
We are all sinners needing of a Saviour. No one is better than other, and certainly I am no better that any Catholic, nor anyone else. Protestants too have done they share of evil, and it needs to be called out. I.e. protestant churches allowing same-sex marriage etc, and I will call that out irrelevant of whether catholic or protestant. Sin is a sin and we must be very careful not allow into churches or else it will destroy us.

Calling out the sins of any church or denominations is not looking down upon someone. It is Biblical. But yes, there are the ones who do look down on other Christians for their sins, and I would be a hypocrite to say I never done it. And yes, we must look at our own sins first, but that does not mean we do not call out on sins of others.

Everyone sins. I doubt there is a single denomination without scandal. It’s a broken, sinful world we live in.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 5, 2025

RileyG said:
The RCC teaches the Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra- from the chair- on faith and morals. It only occurred once when Pope Pius XII declared The Assumption of the Virgin Mary in 1950. It’s incredibly, incredibly rare, and was defined at Vatican I in the 1800s.

And no, no Catholic worships the Virgin Mary, or the Pope, or icons or statues. And those in heaven are very much alive not just “asleep.” We have a huge devotion and love for Jesus.

The only one infallible is Jesus Christ. I do not buy into Catholic doctrine. While there are good people in the church who mean well, they teach way too many things that are against the teachings of Jesus Christ which is I believe is who we should follow. John 14:6

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Still, that’s pretty offensive.

Especially since many of us do have a deep relationship with Christ within the RCC

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
The only one infallible is Jesus Christ. I do not buy into Catholic doctrine. While there are good people in the church who mean well, they teach way too many things that are against the teachings of Jesus Christ which is I believe is who we should follow. John 14:6

Matthew 16:18-19. The gates of hell shall not prevail against his Church. He gave St. Peter the authority which is handed down to Pope Leo XIV, today. From the RC perspective. BTW, it doesn’t mean the man himself is infallible, rather the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error.

And yes, we very much believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. No one denied that. Not once.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 5, 2025

RileyG said:
Matthew 16:18-19. The gates of hell shall not prevail against his Church. He gave St. Peter the authority which is handed down to Pope Leo XIV, today. From the RC perspective.

And yes, we very much believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. No one denied that. Not once.

Yes, God's church, which does not say the Catholic church.

God's church is a remnant which means a small remainder of the original.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

His church keeps God's commandments - not the church we were warned about in Scripture who changed God's times and laws Dan 7:25 that they openly admit to changing based on their authority that is above God's Word, when the God of the Universe promised He would not alter His Testimony Exo 31:18 Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18. Sorry I am sticking to what God said, not the popular traditions Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, God's church, which does not say the Catholic church.

God's church is a remnant which means a small remainder of the original.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

His church keeps God's commandments - not the church we were warned about in Scripture who changed God's times and laws Dan 7:25 that they openly admit to changing based on their authority that is above God's Word, when the God of the Universe promised He would not alter His Testimony Exo 31:18 Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18. Sorry I am sticking to what God said, not the popular traditions Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

I am also sticking with what God said.

Catholic simply means universal, btw.

God bless you

SabbathBlessings · Jul 5, 2025

RileyG said:
I am also sticking with what God said.

Catholic simply means universal, btw.

God bless you

But that doesn't mean Rome.

All will get sorted out soon enough.

I wish you well.

RileyG · Jul 5, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
But that doesn't mean Rome.

All will get sorted out soon enough.

I wish you well.

Ahhhhh, if you’re interested in the five major patriarchs in Christianity, that’s some history for you! It’s very fascinating!

Thank you, you too.

Take care

Ivan Hlavanda · Jul 5, 2025

RileyG said:
Everyone sins. I doubt there is a single denomination without scandal. It’s a broken, sinful world we live in.

Of course we are all sinners, and we must be always loving. But there is also Church discipline, and there are also those who do not want to repent of their sin.

Look at what our Lord says to the sinful churches in revelation. 'Repent or else I will be against you'. If the Lord is against you, you are in enormous trouble.

It is not wise to be quiet when there is sin in Church. I know of a church that allowed a preacher who lived in an adultary without repentance. Guess what happened. The chuch fell.

Even the apostles were not quiet.

Look at all these worldly churches today who live in rebellion to Lord. Gay marriages, Christians supporting abortions, false gospel, female pastors. The church became soft in the western world. Because we are scared to offend. But the word of God is a sharp sword.

Cheap grace is preached today. Pray this and this and God will forgive you and then you can live however you want.

Christians living is sin, because 'we are under grace, we are not under law' so we can do whatever we want. You think God is going to be with such rebellious people?

BNR32FAN · Jul 5, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
If you really wished to keep your mouth shut, you would not have posted.

You obviously have a viewpoint, but apparently do not think it would be heard. How do you know yours is correct?

No I posted after reading some of the posts in the thread and wanted to convey my desire to address them and my restraint from doing so to The Liturgist.

The Liturgist · Jul 5, 2025

RileyG said:
Catholic simply means universal, btw.

It literally means “According to the whole”, so the word Catholic was historically used to refer to the entire Church which believes in the entire Gospel. St. Vincent of Lerins, who is venerated by the Orthodox, said “That which has been believed at all times everywhere and by everyone is properly called Catholic.”

It is also for this reason that other ancient liturgical churches such as the various constituent churches of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communion, and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East officially refer to themselves as Catholic.

boughtwithaprice · Jul 5, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
No I posted after reading some of the posts in the thread and wanted to convey my desire to address them and my restraint from doing so to The Liturgist.

Ok, but you should not feel constrained from speaking your mind. We probably won’t agree but we can always learn something.
Christ tells us to love our enemies, and I can speak from experience that I have learned more and appreciate more from those that oppose me rather than agree. They have forced me to study more instead of relying on my own understanding

Peace be with you

BNR32FAN · Jul 5, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
Ok, but you should not feel constrained from speaking your mind. We probably won’t agree but we can always learn something.
Christ tells us to love our enemies, and I can speak from experience that I have learned more and appreciate more from those that oppose me rather than agree. They have forced me to study more instead of relying on my own understanding

Peace be with you

Well the whole premise of this particular thread is refraining from excessive criticism of other denominations. So in this particular thread I would refrain from such criticism whereas in other threads I would feel more inclined to engage more freely in discussions without refraining. Anybody who knows me here in CF knows I have absolutely no problems speaking my mind.

The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

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