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The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

Fervent

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Because every man is his own pope, more infallible than the pope of Rome would ever dream of being.
There certainly is the recipe for that, and some definitely live up to that description, but I wouldn't accuse protestants in general of doing so in practice. Though the ecclesial disagreement is certainly far deeper between Protestants of all stripes and Orthodox and Catholics. In fact, the ecclesial issues are about the only surviving mainstream issue that keeps me a self-described Protestant.
 
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ralliann

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I think we have to differentiate between the traditional mainstream Protestant churches that are involved in ecumenical dialogue, that are in some cases very conservative, like the LCMS, the SBC and the ACNA, in other cases unfortunately liberal, but nonetheless, these traditional Protestant churches, which are mostly liturgical with some exceptions like the SBC, although increasingly in many historically liturgical Protestant denominations the traditional organ music and chorales have been replaced by praise and worship music, which resulted in my alienation from the Methodist parish in which I was baptized, because I can’t pray to rock music - this problem also exists in the Roman Catholic Church and even more so among the Maronite Catholics, where finding a parish with traditional music is incredibly hard, but at any rate, we have to differentiate between mainstream churches that do apologize for historical errors, and those churches which do not, and engage in more and more schisms.

In Orthodoxy we have an equivalent group of factions, the Old Calendarists, who engaged in an absurd number of schisms and consist of a number of small groups, although ironically what they’re fighting for is the opposite of what Restorationists are fighting for, but both groups share an opposition to any attempt at ecumenical dialogue or reconciliation, even where that process involves no change to doctrine or no affirmation of religious pluralism.
Well considering these things, Just me personally. I am recognizing that I am indeed treating Catholicism and Protestantism equally. I have for quite a few years now coming closer and closer to these historical Churches. I was seeking authority over myself. Tired of taking it upon myself. Even seeing that as arrogance to dismiss so many which were before us.
But by the time this idea came to me, these historical churches were promoting sexual perversion.
So I was looking at Orthodox, and or Catholic. But, there I had to believe certain things that I couldn't. So, I was indeed treating each one according to conscience.
So for now, unless the Lord changes my conscience (I do pray on it, and desire your prayers as well), ecumenicalism is the venue. Maybe the Lord will provide a way there. I do respect you guys.
 
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Fervent

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Well considering these things, Just me personally. I am recognizing that I am indeed treating Catholicism and Protestantism equally. I have for quite a few years now coming closer and closer to these historical Churches. I was seeking authority over myself. Tired of taking it upon myself. Even seeing that as arrogance to dismiss so many which were before us.
But by the time this idea came to me, these historical churches were promoting sexual perversion.
So I was looking at Orthodox, and or Catholic. But, there I had to believe certain things that I couldn't. So, I was indeed treating each one according to conscience.
So for now, unless the Lord changes my conscience (I do pray on it, and desire your prayers as well), ecumenicalism is the venue. Maybe the Lord will provide a way there. I do respect you guys.
Ironically, one of the biggest barriers to true ecumenical agreement is, IMO, a reluctance among those who are ecumenically minded to establish clear boundaries. I believe that we might be able to find far more common ground on where we believe groups have exceeded the bounds of acceptable theological opinion than on affirmative commitments.
 
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ralliann

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Ironically, one of the biggest barriers to true ecumenical agreement is, IMO, a reluctance among those who are ecumenically minded to establish clear boundaries. I believe that we might be able to find far more common ground on where we believe groups have exceeded the bounds of acceptable theological opinion than on affirmative commitments.
Thank you Fervent
Would you mind giving an example of these theological bounds? I might agree here but not sure of your meaning yet.
 
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Fervent

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Thank you Fervent
Would you mind giving an example of these theological bounds? I might agree here but not sure of your meaning yet.
For example, we can all pretty much agree that objecting to the Nicene creed marks someone off as something other than Christian in their belief. Or open theism, as another example. For the most part, I'm thinking that we can re-visit historic heresies and re-recognize them as such. There might even be some controversial areas that could unite a broad spectrum of believers, such as an opposition to antinomialism.

My thoughts on this come from historical precedence, as the initial aim of the Council of Nicea was to establish the limits of Christological speculation. It was a start, which is why further elaboration was required even after the Council had first come to their conclusion.
 
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ralliann

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For example, we can all pretty much agree that objecting to the Nicene creed marks someone off as something other than Christian in their belief. Or open theism, as another example. For the most part, I'm thinking that we can re-visit historic heresies and re-recognize them as such. There might even be some controversial areas that could unite a broad spectrum of believers, such as an opposition to antinomialism.

My thoughts on this come from historical precedence, as the initial aim of the Council of Nicea was to establish the limits of Christological speculation. It was a start, which is why further elaboration was required even after the Council had first come to their conclusion.
Ah I see. I like where you are going. How you are looking at this is different than mine, but important and good IMO. My view might be included there in the broad spectrum area. Even if in an unexpected way. LOL, could you tell me what antinomialism is. I think I have a grasp on antinomian, not sure what you mean.
 
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chevyontheriver

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There certainly is the recipe for that, and some definitely live up to that description, but I wouldn't accuse protestants in general of doing so in practice.
I know. I painted with a bit too wide a brush there. Especially considering the traditional Protestants, Lutherans, and the like.
Though the ecclesial disagreement is certainly far deeper between Protestants of all stripes and Orthodox and Catholics. In fact, the ecclesial issues are about the only surviving mainstream issue that keeps me a self-described Protestant.
And the ecclesial issues are for the most part practical issues. What works? What has failed spectacularly? Given there are such a thing as bishops in the Bible, how do they work?
 
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The Liturgist

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I grew up hearing some pretty nasty stuff about Catholics and how off their theology is, but upon my own inspection I found that nearly everything I was told was at best misrepresentations, at worst outright fabrications. I still hold disagreements, but I find myself holding a far more charitable view today.

Exactly the issue with perspicuity, it can't just be in their minds. It has to be the plain teaching of Scripture. Which is why my Protestant fellows are often willing to split at the drop of a hat. Don't like the music? We need a new church! Disagree with the Pastor on x,y, or z? We need a new church! The Scriptures are plain, anyone who disagrees with what we think it means must be an enemy of God and His word.

Oh yeah..but none of them will admit as much. Protestantism owes more of its theology from an over-reliance on Augustine's polemical works than it does to broad historical understanding of Scripture.

Yeah, there are a few groups that are especcially prone to it and Catholics are only the most apparent target, the more vehemently one adopts the idea of perspicuity the less room there is for engaging in doctrinal triage. Personally, the types of disagreements I have with traditional theology I place as second-order issues, important enough that I'm not going to join one of the traditional churches but not so important that I can't understand how someone could believe such things.

To be fair, the entire Western Church over-relied on St. Augustine’s heresiological works, rather than his moral writings like his Confessions and The City of God, which are the good stuff when it comes to St. Augustine (who has always been venerated by the Orthodox, despite some Old Calendarists claiming otherwise).

Historically, both the Western and Eastern churches relied on the refutation of Pelagius authored by St. John Cassian, another Latin monastic, whose Conferences were read in the refectory of Benedictine monasteries, until the Scholastic period when they fell out of favor, and were replaced by Augustinian writings, which wound up becoming so dominant in the West that even today I meet relatively young clergy in different denominations whose experience reading Patristic writings is limited to St. Augustine.

The Orthodox continue to use St. John Cassian’s refutation of Pelagius (who, let us not mince words, was a heretic, since according to Pelagius we have to save ourselves, with Christ only showing us the way, which is of course blasphemous; our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ saved us, and it is only through Him that we can obtain salvation, and this fact is agreed upon even by those denominations historically accused by some Calvinists and other monergists as being “semi-Pelagian” which is a term I object to.

That being said, the importance of St. Augustine is vast, and he should still be read, and venerated as a saint, and his opposition to Donatism and Pelagianism was correct - Donatism is fundamentally flawed because if the efficacy of a sacrament depends on the righteousness of the celebrant, we are all out of luck.

Well considering these things, Just me personally. I am recognizing that I am indeed treating Catholicism and Protestantism equally. I have for quite a few years now coming closer and closer to these historical Churches. I was seeking authority over myself. Tired of taking it upon myself. Even seeing that as arrogance to dismiss so many which were before us.
But by the time this idea came to me, these historical churches were promoting sexual perversion.
So I was looking at Orthodox, and or Catholic. But, there I had to believe certain things that I couldn't. So, I was indeed treating each one according to conscience.
So for now, unless the Lord changes my conscience (I do pray on it, and desire your prayers as well), ecumenicalism is the venue. Maybe the Lord will provide a way there. I do respect you guys.

Perhaps you should look into the Assyrian Church of the East, the Confessional Lutherans or the more low church Continuing Anglicans or ACNA, depending on the specific Orthodox and Catholic beliefs you object to. There are also a few surviving traditional Congregationalist churches like Park Street Church in Boston. I have many friends in those denominations. If you send me a private message about the doctrines you objected to, I should be able to help you find a suitable church.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Well considering these things, Just me personally. I am recognizing that I am indeed treating Catholicism and Protestantism equally. I have for quite a few years now coming closer and closer to these historical Churches. I was seeking authority over myself. Tired of taking it upon myself. Even seeing that as arrogance to dismiss so many which were before us.
But by the time this idea came to me, these historical churches were promoting sexual perversion.
So I was looking at Orthodox, and or Catholic. But, there I had to believe certain things that I couldn't. So, I was indeed treating each one according to conscience.
So for now, unless the Lord changes my conscience (I do pray on it, and desire your prayers as well), ecumenicalism is the venue. Maybe the Lord will provide a way there. I do respect you guys.
Well, you do have to follow your conscience. At the same time you have to actively form your conscience in right ways. And you do have to form your understanding by grabbing onto more truth. Then you set sail for the land of truth that God will guide you to.

I look at it this way when deciding which church to belong to: Where does God want me? Not where am I most comfortable. Where am I called to be mentored/discipled?
 
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The Liturgist

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Ironically, one of the biggest barriers to true ecumenical agreement is, IMO, a reluctance among those who are ecumenically minded to establish clear boundaries. I believe that we might be able to find far more common ground on where we believe groups have exceeded the bounds of acceptable theological opinion than on affirmative commitments.

I think the CF Statement of Faith is a pretty good starting point.
 
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Fervent

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I know. I painted with a bit too wide a brush there. Especially considering the traditional Protestants, Lutherans, and the like.
I appreciate your acknowledging as much.
And the ecclesial issues are for the most part practical issues. What works? What has failed spectacularly? Given there are such a thing as bishops in the Bible, how do they work?
There is a practical element, and just about every functional denomination adopts some sort of eldership so as far as I'm concerned the ecclesial issue isn't exclusively about governmental structure, but special claims like the claim of an unbroken apostolic succession of Roman bishops and other ecclesial positions that provide the appearance that clergy are more sanctified than lay believers rather than simply serving an adminsterial function. I find myself far more amenable to the Orthodox commitment to "first among equals", but for historical reasons I'm not persuaded about claims about monarchical episcopal governance as an exclusive expression of ecclesial governance.
 
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ralliann

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Well, you do have to follow your conscience. At the same time you have to actively form your conscience in right ways. And you do have to form your understanding by grabbing onto more truth. Then you set sail for the land of truth that God will guide you to.

I look at it this way when deciding which church to belong to: Where does God want me? Not where am I most comfortable. Where am I called to be mentored/discipled?
I am uncomfortable with what I have to do. I can accept, the conscience of others doing these things. So it is the extent of forming the conscience here.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; {emboldened: Gr. edified }
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
 
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Fervent

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I think the CF Statement of Faith is a pretty good starting point.
It definitely is, but I think we could go further by revisting the various early ecumenical councils and re-affirming them and perhaps restating them to fit with modern expressions of anathematized material. I think we could at least get almost universal agreement to the 3rd council of Constantinople, if not as late as the 2nd council of Nicea. Upon securing common ground in those respects, we might then begin visiting each others particular councils and sifting them for points of agreement.
 
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ralliann

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I appreciate your acknowledging as much.

There is a practical element, and just about every functional denomination adopts some sort of eldership so as far as I'm concerned the ecclesial issue isn't exclusively about governmental structure, but special claims like the claim of an unbroken apostolic succession of Roman bishops and other ecclesial positions that provide the appearance that clergy are more sanctified than lay believers rather than simply serving an adminsterial function. I find myself far more amenable to the Orthodox commitment to "first among equals", but for historical reasons I'm not persuaded about claims about monarchical episcopal governance as an exclusive expression of ecclesial governance.
I think I accept Apostolic succession, and authrority . But...as you say first Among equals. This is hopeful because it is not "protestant" at all. This issue belongs with the Catholic Church historically.
The rest as far as I am concerned is also not completely "protestant" either. It is coming from within these Churches in dialogue with Judaism. Especially Messianic Judaism...
Reading fr. levy';s book, he made some quite astounding (to me anyway) comments about the early churches wrong thinking and attitude.
The issue I seen however , that while they acknowledge these things, and speculate on some ways to include them, There is not a view to consider the effect this may have had in these things.
For instance, just an example of what I mean. I have read Orthodox books on the councils. They came right out and said they rejected/dismissed terminolgy, and of expressions as too Jewish. What would have been, had this wrong thinking not been an issue? I don't know. Maybe not anything. It just was not a consideration in his book.
 
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Fervent

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I think I accept Apostolic succession, and authrority . But...as you say first Among equals. This is hopeful because it is not "protestant" at all. This issue belongs with the Catholic Church historically.
The rest as far as I am concerned is also not completely "protestant" either. It is coming from within these Churches in dialogue with Judaism. Especially Messianic Judaism...
Reading fr. levy';s book, he made some quite astounding (to me anyway) comments about the early churches wrong thinking and attitude.
The issue I seen however , that while they acknowledge these things, and speculate on some ways to include them, There is not a view to consider the effect this may have had in these things.
For instance, just an example of what I mean. I have read Orthodox books on the councils. They came right out and said they rejected/dismissed terminolgy, and of expressions as too Jewish. What would have been, had this wrong thinking not been an issue? I don't know. Maybe not anything. It just was not a consideration in his book.
I think to a certain extent some sort of Apostolic succession is encumbant upon any Christian, but IMO it's not tied to the Bishopric but instead is in the continual adherence to Apostolic histories of the NT. It strains credulity to believe that there is an unbroken line of appointments to the Bishopric of Rome, and requires a move of faith I am not capable of making. I respect and understand the appeal of Catholicism, and I do believe that if there is to somehow arise a re-unified church it would need to be under Rome as its titular head. But because the RCC does not exhaust the body of believers, I do not recognize that at present it is the true Church of Christ.
 
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ralliann

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I think to a certain extent some sort of Apostolic succession is encumbant upon any Christian, but IMO it's not tied to the Bishopric but instead is in the continual adherence to Apostolic histories of the NT. It strains credulity to believe that there is an unbroken line of appointments to the Bishopric of Rome, and requires a move of faith I am not capable of making. I respect and understand the appeal of Catholicism, and I do believe that if there is to somehow arise a re-unified church it would need to be under Rome as its titular head. But because the RCC does not exhaust the body of believers, I do not recognize that at present it is the true Church of Christ.
Apostolic Histories? not sure what that means....

I think it is council, as the priestly anointing was for a shadow and pattern.

The letter sent from the council in Jerusalem concerning Gentiles. It was not just the Apostles, but the Holy Ghost among them..
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. {mouth: Gr. word }
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;




Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 
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caffeinated.hermit

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I'm kind of in the same boat as you guys. I'd say... there's a maybe 80% to 90% chance the Catholic Church is "it". Just makes sense. It's all over Scripture. Mary being the Woman of Revelation (compare Psalm 2 to Rev. 12), salvation being about faith plus discipleship, Peter being the rock...

Like.... the New Testament, if taken at face value minus any bias is maybe 70% Catholic-leaning. Objectively. Not everything is in there, mind you. But you get these clues that, at the very least, indicate that some of the most intense Protestant bias is not genuinely Scriptural, it's just anti-Catholic.

I'm waiting for the day when everyone gets back together. I have a great deal of hope that could be within our lifetimes. That would be awesome. There's been some really, really interesting Protestant scholarship indicating that Sola Fide may be wearing away a bit among some thinkers. Matthew W. Bates and Paul A. Rainbow, to name two.

The EO are pretty awesome, too. Reading the Philokalia right now. My thing is, when you meet humble, sincere, gracious followers of Christ, they've all got something kind of neat and special about them. I've met Baptists, Catholics, EO, and Lutherans who all fit that profile.
 
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Fervent

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Apostolic Histories? not sure what that means....
When I say that, I mean that Apostolic authority is vested in the NT documents themselves, rather than on an unbroken line of successive leadership.
I think it is council, as the priestly anointing was for a shadow and pattern.
My view is that tradition and Scripture are functionally inseparable, so councils and such are part of the Holy Spirit's guidance of the church. But I don't believe that there is an immaculate Apostolic succession because there have been too many political controversies and documented lapses of succession for me to take such a belief on personally.
The letter sent from the council in Jerusalem concerning Gentiles. It was not just the Apostles, but the Holy Ghost among them..
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. {mouth: Gr. word }
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;




Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 
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ralliann

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When I say that, I mean that Apostolic authority is vested in the NT documents themselves, rather than on an unbroken line of successive leadership.

My view is that tradition and Scripture are functionally inseparable, so councils and such are part of the Holy Spirit's guidance of the church. But I don't believe that there is an immaculate Apostolic succession because there have been too many political controversies and documented lapses of succession for me to take such a belief on personally.
Maybe you have a fuller knowledge on things here than I do. So maybe that makes sense. But...I am just happy we all agree on ecumenism...Thank you.
 
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ralliann

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I'm kind of in the same boat as you guys. I'd say... there's a maybe 80% to 90% chance the Catholic Church is "it". Just makes sense. It's all over Scripture. Mary being the Woman of Revelation (compare Psalm 2 to Rev. 12), salvation being about faith plus discipleship, Peter being the rock...
Never heard this one! Have to look at it.
Like.... the New Testament, if taken at face value minus any bias is maybe 70% Catholic-leaning. Objectively. Not everything is in there, mind you. But you get these clues that, at the very least, indicate that some of the most intense Protestant bias is not genuinely Scriptural, it's just anti-Catholic.
What a way to put it
" some of the most intense Protestant bias is not genuinely Scriptural, it's just anti-Catholic. "
Perhaps true, never looked at it like that.
I'm waiting for the day when everyone gets back together. I have a great deal of hope that could be within our lifetimes. That would be awesome. There's been some really, really interesting Protestant scholarship indicating that Sola Fide may be wearing away a bit among some thinkers. Matthew W. Bates and Paul A. Rainbow, to name two.
Wow, thanks . Never heard of these.
The EO are pretty awesome, too. Reading the Philokalia right now. My thing is, when you meet humble, sincere, gracious followers of Christ, they've all got something kind of neat and special about them. I've met Baptists, Catholics, EO, and Lutherans who all fit that profile.
Intersting post . Thank you.
 
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