American Revolution was not Christian

mindlight · Saturday at 4:47 AM

Yesterday was the 4th of July, celebrated by Americans. It remembers a successful revolution against the British and is the foundational event, along with the framing of the Constitution, of the American state. But were the motives of those who supported it Christian ones? Many of the founding fathers had slightly heretical Deistic beliefs, though some were also Christian, and all were formed by a Christian context and culture.

There are revolutionary examples in the bible, for example, the book of Judges. This was usually characterised by the people of Israel sinning and then falling under foreign oppression. Then, as Israel repents of its sins and comes back to the Lord, He raises up a Judge/Deliverer to rescue them. Also, the book of Exodus shows how a people who were oppressed and living in a dictatorship were permitted by Divine mandate and grace to leave the state of Egypt and form their own country. Though this is not an example of an overthrow of Egyptian authority or institutions, as these were left intact even after the events described. Marxism also inspired a theological trend called Liberation Theology, which is still influential even today.

But these examples are about the overthrow of foreign will. Since most of the colonists in the Thirteen Colonies were actually of British descent, how could they justify revolution against the Crown?

Is there any example of a Christian revolution that is supported by scripture that was not about liberation from foreign oppression?
Was the American Revolution a Christian act or a wrongful pagan one that God allowed, and in later years, by His grace and mercy healed the wounds of? Or was it just wrong?
Was the revolution driven by Christians or rather by greed and ambition (no tax without representation and the desire to expand West into Indian territory).

If the revolution was so wrong, why did God bless America in the years that followed that revolution?

trophy33 · Saturday at 5:02 AM

mindlight said:
If the revolution was so wrong, why did God bless America in the years that followed that revolution?

What blessing do you have in mind? I do not think the quality of life was significantly better than in Canada, Australia or England. And the quality of life in the continental Europe was frequently far better than in the USA.

It was easier to get rich, because of the vast natural resources stolen from natives and vast empty lands used for lumber, pastures etc. But it was just because it was naturally there and was independent on the revolution.

PloverWing · Saturday at 8:40 AM

mindlight said:
Since most of the colonists in the Thirteen Colonies were actually of British descent, how could they justify revolution against the Crown?

The justification given in the Declaration of Independence is that the British government was doing a bad job of governing the American colonies, so it was time for the colonies to separate from Britain and govern themselves:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

Note: The following text is a transcription of the Stone Engraving of the parchment Declaration of Independence (the document on display in the Rotunda at the National Archives Museum.) The spelling and punctuation reflects the original.

www.archives.gov

Amo2 · Saturday at 10:34 AM

The colonists, including their philosohy in their religion, as the people up to that time had always done, were neither skeptics nor sensualilsts, but Christains. The school that bows to the senses as the sole inerpreter of truth had little share in colonizing our America. The colonists from Main to Carolina, the adventurous companies of Smith, the proscribed Puritans that freighted the fleet of Winthrop, the Quaker outlaws that fled from jails with a Newgate prisoner as their sovereign-all had faith in God and in the soul. The system which had been revealed in Judea- the system which combines and perfects the symbolic wisdom of the Orient and the reflective genius of Greece- the system, conforming to reason, yet kindling enthusiasm; always hastening reform, yet always conservative; proclaiming absolute equality among men, yet not suddenly abolishing the unequal institutions of society; guaranteeing absolute freedom, yet invoking the inexorable restrictions of duty; in the highest degree theoretical, and yet in the highest degree practical; awakening the inner man to a consciousness of his destiny, and yet adapted with exact harmony to the outward world; at once divine and human-this system was professed in every part of our widely extended country, and cradled our freedom.

Our fathers were not only Christains; they were, even in Maryland by a vast majority, elsehwere almost unanimously, Protestants. Now the Protestant reformation, considered in its largest influence on politics, was the awakening of the common people to freedom of mind.

During the decline of the Roman empire, the opressed invoked the power of Christianity to resist the supremacy of brute force; and the merciful priest assumed the office of protector. The tribunes of Rome, appointed by the people, had been declared inviolable by the popular vote; the new tribunes of humanity, deriving their office from religion, and ordained by religion to a still more venerable sanctity, defended the poor man's house against lust by the sacrament of marriage; restrained arbitrary passion by a menace of the misery due to sin unrepented of and unatoned; and taught respect for the race by sprinkling every new-born child with the water of life, confirming every youth, bearing the oil of consolation to every death-bed, and sharing freely with every human being the consecrated emblem of God present with man.

But from protectors priests grew to be usurpers. Expressing all moral truth by the mysteries of symbols, and reserving to themselves the administration of seven sacraments, they claimed a monopoly of thought and exercised an absolute spiritual dominion. Human bondage was strongly riveted; for they had fastened it on the affections, the understanding, and the reason. Ordaining thier own successors, they ruled human destiny at birth, on entering active life, at marriage, when frailty breathed its confession, when faith aspired to communion with God, and at death. (History of the United States, Bancroft Vol. 1.)

mindlight · Sunday at 1:57 AM

PloverWing said:
The justification given in the Declaration of Independence is that the British government was doing a bad job of governing the American colonies, so it was time for the colonies to separate from Britain and govern themselves:

Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

Note: The following text is a transcription of the Stone Engraving of the parchment Declaration of Independence (the document on display in the Rotunda at the National Archives Museum.) The spelling and punctuation reflects the original.

www.archives.gov

The basic understanding of authority shared here is the consent of the governed. This seems like common sense in the modern era, but how could this be justified biblically? In effect, it is a principle that echoes the Enlightenment and the view that man now sits on the throne of God. But if this is a delusion, then so is the basis of the declaration. The declaration appeals to the Creator to justify arbitrarily chosen measures of the success of human governance, like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but neglects the more commonly biblically referred measures of peace, prosperity, and righteousness.

What God has done through America is marvellous to behold, and there is a sense of Divine providence about that. But a root and branch review is required at a time when the world is questioning American authority and examples of the abuse of its power.

mindlight · Sunday at 2:06 AM

Amo2 said:
The colonists, including their philosohy in their religion, as the people up to that time had always done, were neither skeptics nor sensualilsts, but Christains. The school that bows to the senses as the sole inerpreter of truth had little share in colonizing our America. The colonists from Main to Carolina, the adventurous companies of Smith, the proscribed Puritans that freighted the fleet of Winthrop, the Quaker outlaws that fled from jails with a Newgate prisoner as their sovereign-all had faith in God and in the soul. The system which had been revealed in Judea- the system which combines and perfects the symbolic wisdom of the Orient and the reflective genius of Greece- the system, conforming to reason, yet kindling enthusiasm; always hastening reform, yet always conservative; proclaiming absolute equality among men, yet not suddenly abolishing the unequal institutions of society; guaranteeing absolute freedom, yet invoking the inexorable restrictions of duty; in the highest degree theoretical, and yet in the highest degree practical; awakening the inner man to a consciousness of his destiny, and yet adapted with exact harmony to the outward world; at once divine and human-this system was professed in every part of our widely extended country, and cradled our freedom.

Our fathers were not only Christains; they were, even in Maryland by a vast majority, elsehwere almost unanimously, Protestants. Now the Protestant reformation, considered in its largest influence on politics, was the awakening of the common people to freedom of mind.

During the decline of the Roman empire, the opressed invoked the power of Christianity to resist the supremacy of brute force; and the merciful priest assumed the office of protector. The tribunes of Rome, appointed by the people, had been declared inviolable by the popular vote; the new tribunes of humanity, deriving their office from religion, and ordained by religion to a still more venerable sanctity, defended the poor man's house against lust by the sacrament of marriage; restrained arbitrary passion by a menace of the misery due to sin unrepented of and unatoned; and taught respect for the race by sprinkling every new-born child with the water of life, confirming every youth, bearing the oil of consolation to every death-bed, and sharing freely with every human being the consecrated emblem of God present with man.

But from protectors priests grew to be usurpers. Expressing all moral truth by the mysteries of symbols, and reserving to themselves the administration of seven sacraments, they claimed a monopoly of thought and exercised an absolute spiritual dominion. Human bondage was strongly riveted; for they had fastened it on the affections, the understanding, and the reason. Ordaining thier own successors, they ruled human destiny at birth, on entering active life, at marriage, when frailty breathed its confession, when faith aspired to communion with God, and at death. (History of the United States, Bancroft Vol. 1.)

Since the Anglican church was also Protestant in the strictest sense, this quote does nothing to explain where the authority came from to initiate a rebellion. White Protestants dominated the rise and expansion of the USA, but a distinctively Protestant justification for revolution is missing here.

mindlight · Sunday at 2:15 AM

trophy33 said:
What blessing do you have in mind? I do not think the quality of life was significantly better than in Canada, Australia or England. And the quality of life in the continental Europe was frequently far better than in the USA.

It was easier to get rich, because of the vast natural resources stolen from natives and vast empty lands used for lumber, pastures etc. But it was just because it was naturally there and was independent on the revolution.

American expansion, prosperity, and peace during the decades following independence were quite marked. I would dispute your numbers. Most Americans were better off than most British people, and per capita incomes were, on the whole, higher after recovery from the war.

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/cromer/e211_f12/LindertWilliamson.pdf

This is not just about money. Except for the War of 1812 (a short one compared to the travails of European states at that time), most Americans lived in peace until the Civil War. Also, they lived in a state that was highly religious and in which congregations were the bedrock of communities. Prosperity, peace, and righteousness are the signs of blessing that I look for here.

Fervent · Sunday at 2:39 AM

This question speaks to much deeper issues than when revolution is justified, and I can't help why you seem to be operating under some sort of just-war philosophy rather than embracing, as many in the early church seem to have, a complete pacifism?

Your use of Judges is an interesting one,, because its refrain parallels well with modern societies.."There was no king in the land, so everyone did what was right in his own sight." So I suppose one might ask...should the Christians at the time have been loyal to the King of England, or the King of Israel?

And what good does it do us today to look back and question Christians of the past? Are we in any better position than they to navigate these trecherous waters? Are we fit to judge them retroactively?

mindlight · Sunday at 3:28 AM

Fervent said:
This question speaks to much deeper issues than when revolution is justified, and I can't help why you seem to be operating under some sort of just-war philosophy rather than embracing, as many in the early church seem to have, a complete pacifism?

Your use of Judges is an interesting one,, because its refrain parallels well with modern societies.."There was no king in the land, so everyone did what was right in his own sight." So I suppose one might ask...should the Christians at the time have been loyal to the King of England, or the King of Israel?

And what good does it do us today to look back and question Christians of the past? Are we in any better position than they to navigate these trecherous waters? Are we fit to judge them retroactively?

Pacifism is not biblical, and most top theologians e.g., Aquinas and Augustine, affirmed that. Global-Historical mainstream church teaching is also clear that just war is OK.

The point about Judges was that only foreign rulers and oppressors were overthrown. In the case of the "King of England", that was not the case, as most Americans were of British descent at that time and under the authority of the Kingdom of Great Britain (why do Americans always say King of England?!).

The roots of modern errors lie in those that were made in the past.

trophy33 · Sunday at 3:36 AM

mindlight said:
American expansion, prosperity, and peace during the decades following independence were quite marked. I would dispute your numbers. Most Americans were better off than most British people, and per capita incomes were, on the whole, higher after recovery from the war.

Hardly. Wild West was basically about the survival of the fittest and who was a better shooter, Natives were massacred (or Whites were massacred by the Natives), Black and Asian people were basically without any rights, slavery in the South etc.

In the same period, people in Netherlands, Switzerland, England, Sweden, Italy and basically throughout Europe had much more rights and, most importantly, the order in society allowed those rights to be actually kept and respected. The era of Enlightenment and of humanism.

We, in Europe, have a romanticized view of America and too dim view of Europe, from movies. Do we even realize that the racial segregation laws in the USA were cancelled in 1960s!? When black people went to "majority white" schools, national guard had to keep the angry Whites away! These people are still alive today.

The relative prosperity of America in the 20th century was because the second world war destroyed both Europe and Asia and then communism was slowing the development of the half of the world. Since 2000's, many parts of the world left the USA behind, both in prosperity and in personal freedoms/rights. Because of fascism, communism and wars, it was probably better to live in the USA, in the 20th century than in Europe. But it depends on where and on your race. But I guess that for example Canada would be even better.

PloverWing · Sunday at 3:34 PM

mindlight said:
The basic understanding of authority shared here is the consent of the governed. This seems like common sense in the modern era, but how could this be justified biblically? In effect, it is a principle that echoes the Enlightenment and the view that man now sits on the throne of God. But if this is a delusion, then so is the basis of the declaration. The declaration appeals to the Creator to justify arbitrarily chosen measures of the success of human governance, like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but neglects the more commonly biblically referred measures of peace, prosperity, and righteousness.

What God has done through America is marvellous to behold, and there is a sense of Divine providence about that. But a root and branch review is required at a time when the world is questioning American authority and examples of the abuse of its power.

The American Constitution is definitely Enlightenment political philosophy implemented as a government, so I agree with that.

I disagree with the characterization of the Enlightenment as man sitting on the throne of God. When Jesus returns in person as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, all earthly governments will be over. Until that time, we acknowledge that we are flawed human beings muddling along as best as we can. It's a dangerous error to think of any earthly ruler (king, emperor, president, etc.) as directly ruling as an agent of God. All rulers should have appropriate humility and keep in mind always that they are merely human. And then we work from there to construct the best government we can, to protect the rights of a land's inhabitants as well as possible.

Secular democracy is not a form of government that would have been envisioned in the time of the ancient empires of the Bible -- Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome. So the Bible isn't going to address the possibility directly. But it does talk about caring for those who are poor and vulnerable, which is one of the functions of government. Secular democracy done well is one way to make that happen.

As far as Europeans questioning American authority and abuse of power -- absolutely, question away. Original sin, and all that. Any time you have human beings with power, even human beings with the best of intentions, there's going to be selfishness and laziness and all the other human sins. I live in a wonderful country, but I do not live in a sinless country. None of us does.

FireDragon76 · Sunday at 3:44 PM

trophy33 said:
Hardly. Wild West was basically about the survival of the fittest and who was a better shooter, Natives were massacred (or Whites were massacred by the Natives), Black and Asian people were basically without any rights, slavery in the South etc.

In the same period, people in Netherlands, Switzerland, England, Sweden, Italy and basically throughout Europe had much more rights and, most importantly, the order in society allowed those rights to be actually kept and respected. The era of Enlightenment and of humanism.

We, in Europe, have a romanticized view of America and too dim view of Europe, from movies. Do we even realize that the racial segregation laws in the USA were cancelled in 1960s!? When black people went to "majority white" schools, national guard had to keep the angry Whites away! These people are still alive today.

The relative prosperity of America in the 20th century was because the second world war destroyed both Europe and Asia and then communism was slowing the development of the half of the world. Since 2000's, many parts of the world left the USA behind, both in prosperity and in personal freedoms/rights. Because of fascism, communism and wars, it was probably better to live in the USA, in the 20th century than in Europe. But it depends on where and on your race. But I guess that for example Canada would be even better.

Europe in the 19th century was busy oppressing non-white people abroad, so of course could promote a liberalizing program domestically to keep peace in its nations. The US, on the other hand, had highly visible colonialist policies domestically from the get-go, operating under the Doctrine of Discovery in the papal bull Inter Caetera in the late 15th century.

FireDragon76 · Sunday at 3:47 PM

mindlight said:
Pacifism is not biblical, and most top theologians e.g., Aquinas and Augustine, affirmed that. Global-Historical mainstream church teaching is also clear that just war is OK.

Just war, as understood by Augustine and the Catholic Church, has such a limited scope for application that very few wars fit the criteria.

Fervent · Sunday at 4:00 PM

mindlight said:
Pacifism is not biblical, and most top theologians e.g., Aquinas and Augustine, affirmed that. Global-Historical mainstream church teaching is also clear that just war is OK.

Many of the antenicene fathers would disagree with you, such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian.

mindlight said:
The point about Judges was that only foreign rulers and oppressors were overthrown. In the case of the "King of England", that was not the case, as most Americans were of British descent at that time and under the authority of the Kingdom of Great Britain (why do Americans always say King of England?!).

I'm not sure we can make parallels between tribal warfare and political revolutions. But my point was you seem to be inordinately worried about where to place worldly loyalty, and leaning far too heavily on assumptions involving Divine intent in various human governments.

mindlight said:
The roots of modern errors lie in those that were made in the past.

Not always, and questioning which worldly authorities to place our allegiance in seems to miss a larger point. As Tertullian put it: "Shall we carry a flag? It is a rival to Christ."

trophy33 · Sunday at 11:50 PM

FireDragon76 said:
Europe in the 19th century was busy oppressing non-white people abroad, so of course could promote a liberalizing program domestically to keep peace in its nations. The US, on the other hand, had highly visible colonialist policies domestically from the get-go, operating under the Doctrine of Discovery in the papal bull Inter Caetera in the late 15th century.

Europe is not a country, it is a continent. Many countries - some had colonies, some did not. Most did not.

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-07T00:02:14-0500

trophy33 said:
Europe is not a country, it is a continent. Many countries - some had colonies, some did not. Most did not.

True. I used language figuratively rather than in a precise sense.

Central Europe either didn't participate in colonization, or only at a much later date. It was mostly rising nation-states that participated in overt colonialism, such as Spain, France, the Netherlands, and England.

trophy33 · 2025-07-07T00:03:53-0500

FireDragon76 said:
True. I used language figuratively rather than in a precise sense.

Central Europe either didn't participate in colonization, or only at a much later date. It was mostly rising nation-states that participated in overt colonialism, such as Spain, France, the Netherlands, and England.

I would add Portugal. These five.

One could live in an European country and have a better and more prosperous life than in the USA, more freedoms etc. And without any colonies.

I guess it was very individual - where you lived, exactly and what was your social status. Then any two countries could compare differently to each other. Many people also fled to the USA because they committed real crimes in Europe.

However, for specific whole groups of people, life in the USA in the 18th/19th century was like living in hell, struggling for survival every day. No freedoms, no rights, manytimes even no civilized society. Such extremes were rare throughout Europe.
Even if somebody was dirt poor in Europe, he could at least hope somebody in a church or secular position of authority will be just and will protect his rights and freedoms.

FireDragon76 · 2025-07-07T07:24:50-0500

trophy33 said:
I would add Portugal. These five.

One could live in an European country and have a better and more prosperous life than in the USA, more freedoms etc. And without any colonies.

I guess it was very individual - where you lived, exactly and what was your social status. Then any two countries could compare differently to each other. Many people also fled to the USA because they committed real crimes in Europe.

However, for specific whole groups of people, life in the USA in the 18th/19th century was like living in hell, struggling for survival every day. No freedoms, no rights, manytimes even no civilized society. Such extremes were rare throughout Europe.
Even if somebody was dirt poor in Europe, he could at least hope somebody in a church or secular position of authority will be just and will protect his rights and freedoms.

Alot of settlers to the US came from Europe out of desperation. There was a fair amount of immiseration of peasants in places like Britain or France.

Some of my ancestors were French Hugenots, Protestants that were being persecuted in central and southern France. Others, later, were Irish Catholics fleeing starvation and oppression.

Some historians have speculated the collapse of the Ancient Regime in France was due to the persecution of the Protestant minority. They had alot of money, and when they left the country, the economy was weakened fatally.

The Holy Roman Empire, which encompasses alot of Central Europe, was probably alot more stable, but that stability had come at a cost. It had suffered through a devestating religious war that wiped out a large part of the population. On the other hand, countries like England, France, Spain, or Portugal were less touched by European wars of religion in terms of massive loss of human lives, and were entering a "Golden Age" of sorts in terms of scientific discovery and cultural achievements.

The settlers arriving to America came with a mixture of desperation, and sometimes greed, into a continent already inhabited by peoples with a settled way of life, and that in itself created alot of cultural fear and restlessness that probably continues to influence the US today. The so-called "frontier spirit".

American Revolution was not Christian

See in the dark

Well-Known Member

Episcopalian

Active Member

See in the dark

See in the dark

See in the dark

Well-Known Member

See in the dark

Well-Known Member

Episcopalian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads