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Cessationism isn't biblical

Guojing

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If it was that easy, then everyone would have it.

Ministries are given by The Lord Jesus, and it is up to Him if a person is really ready for such a thing.

I am not saying its easy, I am saying salvation is by faith alone. You need to believe first, of course not everyone will.

But you are implying the gift of healing requires more than faith from a believer.

You understand the difference?
 
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Hoping2

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No one said the tongues will make the nation of Israel believe.
True: in fact, even if they hear the gift of tongues, they won't change their hearts towards God...at least during the time Isaiah was speaking.
I am saying if Israel hear tongues, its a sign that they are unbelieving.
Do you think Joseph and Mary thought they were under condemnation when they moved to Egypt ? (Matt 2:13-14)
Its the same situation in Acts 2. The nation is in judgement for crucifying their Messiah (Acts 2:36). Even then, only a small remnant believe and were cut in their hearts (Acts 2:37)
That judgement didn't come for 70(?) more years.
Then you need to show scripture that says when Israel heard a foreign language that they do not understand, it is something else other than judgement from God.
I will repeat, Matt 2:13-14.
This actually goes way back before Israel was even formed, if you recall the story of the Tower of Babel.
Show where condemnation is mentioned in Gen 11.
 
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Guojing

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That judgement didn't come for 70(?) more years.

We now know that Daniel's 70th week was postponed indefinitely.

But at Acts 2, when the Spirit came on Peter to remind Israel of the Joel prophecy in Acts 2:16-20, it was understood then that judgement would come in anytime then, since the 69th week was the cross, where Messiah will be "cut off".

I will repeat, Matt 2:13-14.

Israel is a nation, I was not referring to individual Jews in the nation.

Show where condemnation is mentioned in Gen 11.

The tower of Babel was God's judgement on Noah's descendants who did not obey God's command to scatter.

Instead they gathered in one location, to build a tower.

God judged them when he confused their single language into foreign languages that they could not understand.
 
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ARBITER01

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I am not saying its easy,

You certainly thought it should be as easy as salvation.

I am saying salvation is by faith alone. You need to believe first, of course not everyone will.

But you are implying the gift of healing requires more than faith from a believer.

You understand the difference?

It requires the filling of The Holy Spirit after salvation, then it requires an anointing upon your head from The Father, but first and foremost, it requires that you love GOD more than His power.

Like I said, if it was as easy as salvation, everyone would have it and be operating in it. Some things are just not as easy to attain from GOD.
 
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Guojing

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Like I said, if it was as easy as salvation, everyone would have it and be operating in it. Some things are just not as easy to attain from GOD.

Another way to understand why no one is operating in that gift of healing today, is because it is no longer given, during the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

But since you believe that gift is for today, together with your conclusion that there is no one operating in that gift today, I can understand why you would think it must be harder to be healed, than to be saved.
 
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ARBITER01

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Another way to understand why no one is operating in that gift of healing today, is because it is no longer given, during the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

Or,....... you can trust the words of GOD and what Jesus confirms to you instead of being an unbeliever over it.

But since you believe that gift is for today, together with your conclusion that there is no one operating in that gift today, I can understand why you would think it must be harder to be healed, than to be saved.

Was it easy for Jesus to receive? That was His ministry upon the earth, did He receive that gift/ministry instantly from GOD just because He believed?
 
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Guojing

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Was it easy for Jesus to receive? That was His ministry upon the earth, did He receive that gift/ministry instantly from GOD just because He believed?

Israel's promised Messiah is supposed to usher Israel into their promised kingdom, where none of them will be sick (Acts 10:38, Isaiah 33:24)

Jesus won't be a credible Messiah to them, if he did not had that gift to show them as a sign (John 20:30-31).
 
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ARBITER01

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Israel's promised Messiah is supposed to usher Israel into their promised kingdom, where none of them will be sick (Acts 10:38, Isaiah 33:24)

Jesus won't be a credible Messiah to them, if he did not had that gift to show them as a sign.

It seems you avoided answering my question, try again.
 
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Guojing

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It seems you avoided answering my question, try again.

Jesus healed because healing is one of the signs to Israel that their Messiah has arrived (Matthew 8:17, Luke 7:19-22).

Whether it was easy for him to receive that gift, that is irrelevant, and even if it is not, your guess is as good as mine, since there is no scripture passage that answers that directly.
 
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ARBITER01

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Jesus healed because healing is one of the signs to Israel that their Messiah has arrived (Matthew 8:17, Luke 7:19-22).

Whether it was easy for him to receive that gift, that is irrelevant, and even if it is not, your guess is as good as mine, since there is no scripture passage that answers that directly.

It seems you are spending way too much time trying to perceive everything in the written word through the lens of Israel.



Anyways,... before Jesus could begin His ministry, He went to John the baptist and was immersed in the Jordan by him. This was the first step towards receiving His ministry. The purpose in this was as Jesus said, to "fulfill all righteousness," but also to demonstrate an example to us. We need to be immersed Spiritually, ie born from above, and water during the immersion process represents The Holy Spirit and our born again experience. We must be born into the family of GOD by the blood of Jesus first before anything. The temple of GOD must be cleansed first by the blood.

Second,....After His water immersion, He then received the filling of The Holy Spirit inside from The Father with the gifts and the fruits. He was given the same 7 Spiritual gifts that the kings, prophets,, and priests had since the old testament was still in effect. It demonstrated to us that once our temple was cleansed by the blood, the presence of The Holy Spirit can be sought and received inside to teach and train us, but to also help us worship The Father and further solidify our Spiritual walk with Him.

Third,...After these two events, Jesus was then sent into a wilderness and separated completely from people, during which time He fasted 40 days and 40 nights. This demonstrates part of the sanctification process we have to go through where we draw near unto GOD over time, and free ourselves from the world and the effects of our flesh upon us.

Forth,.... Jesus went through the trials and temptations of satan after His wilderness. This demonstrated to us His walk by The Holy Spirit and His complete reliance upon and leading by Him. Everything that Jesus said and did at this point against satan was by The Holy Spirit, not Himself. Again, it is our example to fulfill. We have to get to the point where it is no longer us, but GOD.

The fifth and final thing that was needed for Jesus's ministry was the Spiritual anointing,.... as we see in His statement,....

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Every step that Jesus went through was part of an approval process with GOD towards the eventual Spiritual anointing upon His head, and the power of The Holy Spirit coming to rest and residing upon Him. Once reaching that point, the greater gifts could be operated by The Holy Spirit, meaning that the gifts of healings, the working of miracles, and the gift of faith all could be operated by The Holy Spirit through Him as part of a ministry.

The title "Christ" means The Anointed-One.


This is why the majority of Christianity is not operating in the greater gifts of healing and such nowadays. Nobody really understands the process, let alone even wishes to attempt to go through it nowadays. They are more interested in their own things instead of the things of GOD, but also, once satan starts applying the pressure against people, they immediately buckle with their sins and give up and start crying. They just become good little churchgoers instead.

Like it or not, this is the approval process with GOD in scripture. You want a ministry similar to what Jesus had? You're not getting it for free like salvation. Pick it apart all you want, I don't care, it is the truth. Don't say you wasn't told.
 
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Guojing

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It seems you are spending way too much time trying to perceive everything in the written word through the lens of Israel.

Because of Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8.

If you do not understand that the first coming of Christ was only to the nation of Israel, then naturally you will think that, since Christ healed so extensively during this first coming, he must therefore be doing the same today


Anyways,... before Jesus could begin His ministry, He went to John the baptist and was immersed in the Jordan by him. This was the first step towards receiving His ministry. The purpose in this was as Jesus said, to "fulfill all righteousness," but also to demonstrate an example to us. We need to be immersed Spiritually, ie born from above, and water during the immersion process represents The Holy Spirit and our born again experience. We must be born into the family of GOD by the blood of Jesus first before anything. The temple of GOD must be cleansed first by the blood.

Second,....After His water immersion, He then received the filling of The Holy Spirit inside from The Father with the gifts and the fruits. He was given the same 7 Spiritual gifts that the kings, prophets,, and priests had since the old testament was still in effect. It demonstrated to us that once our temple was cleansed by the blood, the presence of The Holy Spirit can be sought and received inside to teach and train us, but to also help us worship The Father and further solidify our Spiritual walk with Him.

Third,...After these two events, Jesus was then sent into a wilderness and separated completely from people, during which time He fasted 40 days and 40 nights. This demonstrates part of the sanctification process we have to go through where we draw near unto GOD over time, and free ourselves from the world and the effects of our flesh upon us.

Forth,.... Jesus went through the trials and temptations of satan after His wilderness. This demonstrated to us His walk by The Holy Spirit and His complete reliance upon and leading by Him. Everything that Jesus said and did at this point against satan was by The Holy Spirit, not Himself. Again, it is our example to fulfill. We have to get to the point where it is no longer us, but GOD.

The fifth and final thing that was needed for Jesus's ministry was the Spiritual anointing,.... as we see in His statement,....

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Every step that Jesus went through was part of an approval process with GOD towards the eventual Spiritual anointing upon His head, and the power of The Holy Spirit coming to rest and residing upon Him. Once reaching that point, the greater gifts could be operated by The Holy Spirit, meaning that the gifts of healings, the working of miracles, and the gift of faith all could be operated by The Holy Spirit through Him as part of a ministry.

This is why the majority of Christianity is not operating in the greater gifts of healing and such nowadays. Nobody really understands the process, let alone even wishes to attempt to go through it nowadays. They are more interested in their own things instead of the things of GOD, but also, once satan starts applying the pressure against people, they immediately buckle with their sins and give up and start crying. They just become good little churchgoers instead.

Like it or not, this is the approval process with GOD in scripture. You want a ministry similar to what Jesus had? You're not getting it for free like salvation. Pick it apart all you want, I don't care, it is the truth. Don't say you wasn't told.

This reasoning of yours is committing the "correlation implies causation fallacy".

You are reasoning that

because Jesus went thru those steps,

therefore

those steps are required to have the gift of healing.
 
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ARBITER01

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......then naturally you will think that, since Christ healed so extensively during this first coming, he must therefore be doing the same today.

Exactly.

As was promised, what GOD performed through His Son upon the earth, HE now does through us....

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say unto you, the one believing in Me, the works which I do, shall that one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going unto My Father.

Christianity is very much an individual walk with GOD. Each person has a different amount and maturity of faith granted them. What you fail to have faith in has no effect on my amount/maturity of faith that I've received from GOD.

This reasoning of yours is committing the "correlation implies causation fallacy".

You are reasoning that because Jesus went thru those steps, therefore those steps are required to have the gift of healing.

Again, faith matters. What you fail to understand and know about the Spiritual things of Christianity has no effect on my walk with GOD. We each have to work out our own salvation.

Laters.
 
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RDKirk

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Now to present the other side of the "controversy"

The people stating they represent the biblical gifts have many fruits of occultism.

For example: When tongues events do not involve translation and include animal noises, this sounds like Shamanism, not the tongues of pentecost. As the bible teaches, test everything, keep to the good, avoid the appearance of evil.

Another example: Prophets rise up and act more like fortunetellers and double down when they're wrong.

Another example: healings are performed but people feel a burning in their hands taking on the appearance of buddhist practices like "Reiki."

During worship services people fall on the ground and start acting like a demon is being cast out of them, but based on the above indicators it is difficult to tell if a demon is going out or in.

I also believe God still gives gifts like at the beginning of the New Testament, but testing whether it is of God is essential.
That's an argument for testing, not for cessationism. Scripture already describes sorcerers and false prophets and warns us, "Test the spirits."
 
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RDKirk

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If we accept sola scriptura (SS) it is a moot point. We defacto value all the gifts of the Spirit just as the new testament presents it. If we add a post biblical interjection then we are adding exceptions to SS (and to scripture) which is not how SS works. Either we value by scripture alone or we reject scripture as the sole infallible authority and use tradition to shape them as well but you can't have both.
I'm not a hardcore fan of sola scriptura, but, yes, that's how the logic would work.
 
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RDKirk

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How do you think the gift of healings, if its still operational, operates today?

Do you know of anyone with that gift? And if they do have, are they 100% successful when they pray for healing, or is it still largely a random process, "depending on God's will"?



Interestingly you are willing to restrict the gift of tongues to known languages.

If that is correct, then do you agree that most of what people do today in charismatic churches, under that "gift", are not known languages?
I don't think it was 100% successful even in the Apostolic age.
 
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Zceptre

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I don't think it was 100% successful even in the Apostolic age.

Oh?

Maybe that would have been what the disciples would tell you in this example if the Lord Jesus had not said otherwise?


Mark 9:21-29

21So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”

And he said, “From childhood. 22And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”


23Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”


24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”


25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.


28And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”


29So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”





I think it is 100% when we have 100% faith.

Also, I am aware of many many many healings. I have things not healed within my own self, but it does not change that I believe in God working today and healing many.

The doubt that says God does not heal today, is exactly the kind of doubt that impedes the healing that faith in Christ brings.

The woman that touched the hem of Lord Jesus' garments was not healed by his clothes, and certainly not doubt, but by faith.

Prayer and fasting is a means by which we increase our faith in God and His goodness and love towards us as a good Father.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'm not a hardcore fan of sola scriptura, but, yes, that's how the logic would work.
Sola scriptura obviously has its conflicts (the doctrine of sola scriptura to start is not in scripture) in practice it works in the context of the reformation where with the invention of the printing Press then a subsequent printed critical Greek text scripture was for the first time widely available. However SS is not that responsible prior too because scripture was not as accessible.

Since these advancements we don't need to rely on church leadership to possess the knowledge and take the responsibility ourselves plus test what was being spoken from the pulpit. The 15th century still had limited ability to do those things (general literacy to start) and as scripture becomes more widely available to all people groups/languages SS becomes more a responsible/defacto way of approaching doctrine and the transition of knowledge passes from priest to parishioner.

Tyndale is quoted famously "in a few years a plow boy shall know more of the Scriptures than you do" that was probably a bit ambitious for Tyndale's time in the 15th century and comments like that for him burned at the stake but today we can certainly say that this may be true that anyone can know as much scripture as the most learnt amoung us. So SS has come into much greater fruition as technology allows scripture to be more accessible, for English I would say it is at its peak and there is no excuse, all can know what scripture plainly says.

But if you want to take a stance and claim SS is the way and reject sacred tradition then be consistent with that approach and don't throw in exceptions. SS except with the Spirit just doesn't make a lot of sense. Otherwise reject SS so you can cross out what you wish in the Bible (not you personally but one who is motivated this way)
 
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Guojing

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Guojing

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The doubt that says God does not heal today, is exactly the kind of doubt that impedes the healing that faith in Christ brings.

So why did you think Jesus healed so many in his first coming?
 
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Zceptre

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So why did you think Jesus healed so many in his first coming?

To set an example, of course. That is what the Lord Jesus said Himself.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

John 14:12
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
 
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