Cessationism isn't biblical

[Dustoff]

Cessationism isn't biblical​

I wasn't sure where to put this so here it is
One teacher defines cessationism as “the gifts and senior ministries have ceased as normative following the apostolic age”. In other words they are not part of the church anymore.
I think that defies common sense. Why would the Holy Spirit put all this instruction and teaching in the bible if 99% of the church would never have any benefit from it? It could easily have been taught in the early church without taking up all this room in the bible. Why did the early church get these blessings but not us? Is God playing favourites? I've heard some say they were only to get the church going. My response is what do the gifts of 1 Cor. 12 & 14 have to do with getting the church going

The same teacher said this:
Those who believe the gifts have continued up till today say there is nowhere in the bible that says they will stop. His answer was there is nowhere it says they will continue either. My response is both are specious. The very fact they are in the bible is the evidence they will continue.

My question is why are we encouraged to seek the best gifts, be zealous for and stir up excel and desire the gifts if the gifts are no longer there for us? It just simply defies all logical explanation.
The history of the church shows these gifts and ministries have continued right down through history A good book on that subject is:
2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity By Eddie L. Hyatt Its available on Thrift Books as well as Amazon.
I sometimes hear that there were only three main times in history when God moved supernaturally on the earth. However it would be more true to say that whenever the bible takes a detailed look at the world we see God moving supernaturally.
John Knox, George Fox, Martin Luther, The Wesleys, All functioned to some degree in the supernatural with some being considered prophets by their contemporaries. I think Saint Patrick of Ireland and some of those who followed him were Apostles.

Lets look at Apostles and Prophets.
Did they cease at the end of the apostolic age.?That belief really shows a serious lack of understanding of the purpose and role of these ministries. We're told that Apostles “were there” to get the church going. My contention is they “are there” to keep the church going.

Just to point out one issue among many.

Eph. 6/12
Apostles deal with the powers in the heavens. They have authority to to deal with the spiritual rulers of this world. One reason the early church was so successful is they overcame principalities and powers that keep this world in darkness. They also have authority to protect the church. I think it was a common office in the early church and will be common again in the last days. An apostle is all 5 of the ministry gifts.

What about prophets? Just an abysmal lack of understanding on their role in the church. Again just one issue. One of the ways God brings his will to pass in this world is through the prophesying of a prophet. He (or she) is not just foretelling the future but causing it to happen. There is a reason why Amos 3/ 7 says . . . “Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he reveals his secrets unto his servants the prophets”

Revelation 10/8-11
Notice verse 11 “thou must prophesy” MUST. The Greek word is the same as the English. Meaning: obliged, required, commanded, necessary, compelled, urged. In other words it had to be done. It was important and necessary.

Here's another one.
Jeremiah 1/5 ordained a prophet unto the nations
Jeremiah.1/10 set thee over nations kingdoms, to root out to pull down to destroy to throw down to build to plant”
You also see that said in various ways in the rest of the prophets.
Both 1 Cor. 12/28 and Eph 4/11-14 show God has set these ministries in the church ”until” we get to the same maturity Jesus walked in. Where does someone get the authority to take them out? Let alone the common sense!

If you're interested in more teaching concerning these ministries someone did a couple Youtube sermons on them. Also some good original music there. Warning. He is not a great orator. But like Paul he may be rude in speech but not in knowledge





The reality of Apostles and Prophets

Tests for True and False Apostles/Prophets

What about the gifts? Have they passed away? Why have all this info and instruction in the bible that does not apply to 99% of the church age. Cessationism shows a serious lack of understanding of the purpose of the gifts. They are there to edify the church and help those who are part of it. Do you enjoy helping your kids? Do you think God is any different? Everyone gets a gift. Contrary to what I've read over the years these gifts are 100% supernatural. They are not innate abilities or talent or wisdom as useful as that is.
There are different kinds of gifts and different ways they happen. Paul said having gifts differing. So there are no hard and fast rules. What Paul gives is a general outline with some mostly general thoughts. 1 Cor 12/7 Why would he say its given to every man if its only given to all in the early church? Here are a few thoughts on some of the gifts and again these are supernatural gifts. Not someones talents or abilities.

Romans 12/6-8
The gift of mercy. Someone I know found out he had this gift. A very manly fellow. Someone was in a painful physical trial and very little the medical could do. He sat with him sharing scripture and praying and comforting. Obviously anyone could do that out of a compassionate christian heart but this was a supernatural ability with supernatural results. He found out he had this gift. He used it to help and minister to another member of the church.

1Cor 12/28
The gift of Helps. Again a supernatural gift. It not a paid position by a junior minister in a mega church to take care of all the mundane tasks. Picking up visiting teachers from the airport for eg. Someone in a church I'm familiar with has this gift. He would be going about his business and being prompted by the Holy Spirit in some way. Would get in his car drive out to some back road where there was a sister in the church with a flat tire no phone and no idea what to do. Gift of helps is a supernatural gift

1Cor 12/8
How about word of wisdom/knowledge. Word of wisdom deals with the future while word of knowledge deals with the past or present. On occasion this has happened to me. The Holy Spirit wanted me to be aware of something and so be careful. Or to see clearly a problem with someone to help them. These are absolutely clear supernatural understandings not some vague sense or feeling or impression or thought. It is a definite action of the Holy Spirit that you can clearly see and understand

1Cor 12/9
Then there are gifts of Healing. Its in the plural as there are many diversities and kinds. A good eg is Acts 8/7. Phillip had gifts of healing for palsies and lameness. It has often happened in meetings I was in that someone would have word of knowledge that God wanted to heal something. It was always right on and sometimes for multiple people. I've seen the same thing with someone having a vision.

1Cor. 12/10
The discerning of Spirits .This is where you see into the spiritual realm to see personalities (good and evil) that normal eyesight won't give you. Here is a good eg. Some time ago I was sitting in my chair and a little girl my wife was watching ran down the hall in front of me. I saw with my eyes wide open clear as day a demon of child abuse following along behind her. Later when I was praying I took authority over it. (Luke 10/17-19) Do you think that little girl and her family would be grateful if they knew the Lord had intervened on her behalf?

1Cor. 12/10
What about the gift of Prophecy. We're told in 1 Cor 14/39 to “covet” to prophesy. Some well known theologians tell us these are the “very words of God” and need to be put on a par with scripture. The point being that prophecy today isn't valid. I'm not going to address that except to say I think it is nonsense. Why are we then encouraged by Paul to do it. Are all of us disciples going to add to scripture? We ordinary disciples prophesy by inspiration. A prophet prophesies by revelation. They see and participate in their prophecies. Read the prophets in the bible. A simple prophecy is designed to edify encourage exhort and comfort. Two times that I can remember I came to church feeling very down and then a simple prophecy came that just encouraged and lifted me. As it was intended to. By some simple disciple.

Receiving the Holy Spirit.
He was poured out at Pentecost to start the church. They all received and spoke in tongues. Including Jesus mother.
Poured out in Acts 10 to bring the gentiles into the church.
From that point on in the bible every time it is the laying on of hands or a prayer of faith
Acts 19/1-7 disciples at Ephesus
Acts 8/15-16 Phillip in Samaria
Galatians 3/2 received by faith (or asking)
Paul himself received by the laying on of hands Acts 9/15
Jesus said he will give the Holy Spirit to those who “ask him” Luke 11/13

If the Holy Spirit comes automatically at conversion or salvation then when and where did this change occur? Where is it in the bible?

Praying in the Spirit
12 Cor. 14/2 praying in tongues is praying in the spirit
Eph. 6/11-18 The armour of God Do only some of us have the opportunity to pray in tongues as part of the armour.
Rom 8/26-27 Do only some of us have the right to have the Holy Spirit pray through us according to the perfect will of God?
Jude 20 Praying in the spirit (or tongues) builds/strengthens/helps ourselves
1 Cor. 12 & 14 is almost entirely giving guidance on the gift of tongues used in the church. He contrasts it several times with the simple ability to pray in tongues. His expectation is that everyone would be praying in tongues

Why would Paul say forbid not to speak in tongues? Probably because he and the Holy Spirit knew there would be so much opposition to it. The reason being it is a marvelous gift and the Devil has no defense against it.

It is a known language. That is clearly said in Acts 2. Its not gibberish or ecstatic. It is a language that was, is or will be spoken in our world. Its just an unknown language to the person speaking it. My professor taught in a major seminary and prayed for many hundreds to receive the Holy Spirit. On occasion he would hear them speak Hebrew (which he taught) or Greek or German. Sometimes French or Arabic which he knew enough to recognize. My pastor visited a church with his family and Korean sister in law. Someone gave an utterance in tongues with the interpretation. She heard him speaking perfect Korean and the interpretation was the same. They are known languages.

Why did God intend us to speak in tongues?
One reason is so we know we have the Holy Spirit and not just some vague feeling. Paul said in the Spirit we speak mysteries. It completely bypasses our mind and intellect so God can deal with deep things inside us. More time in tongues means less time in counseling. He can deal with issues that our mind can't comprehend. Or complicated issues so he doesn't have to give long explanations. In interceding for others he can deal with issues without giving us all the info we don't need about someones else s life. Paul said over and over in Corinthians that by praying in tongues we edify ourself.

The bottom line is God does not play favorites. If you are hungry for more of God. Then the Holy Spirit with tongues is available to all. Just as God intended.

Why don't some Christians want the Holy Spirit and especially tongues
They are wrongly taught that it is not for today.
They're not hungry and don't care.
One very big reason is they think it is low class.
They are too proud and don't want to be a peculiar people. 1Peter 2/9
They are educated and don't need it like the common rabble out there.
One very big reason is fear. That's what they are taught. Jesus said he wouldn't give you a snake if you ask for a fish. Luke 11/11-13
Some think it is unclean or of the devil.
One very well known minister's entire ministry is built on his anger at the charismatics usurping the teaching ministry of the church. He wrote an entire book on it.
Another well known minister fasted 40 days to get it and couldn't overcome the fear his Baptist upbringing taught him.
One very well known mega church minister was a tower of opposition to the charismatic experience. A hungry person close to him asked him about it. His response was (quote) “if you get this experience that will end our relationship” So he knew it was real. One can only wonder what was going on deep inside him.
The cost is too great` What will others think? Other ministers/family/friends!

Well I know what God will think! Its those who hunger that are filled. Losing friendships being put out of your church being peculiar or whatever simply won't matter anymore. You will be close to Jesus and the world will fade into insignificance!

Question remains: Why is all this in the bible if it is of no value to 99% of us in the church age?
Dwight Moody said (paraphrasing and going by memory here) When he first started preaching it was like carrying buckets of water out to the people. When he received the Holy Spirit he was carried along in a great river.

If you're hungry for more of God and interested here are several short messages on how to receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said he will give the HS to those who “ask him” The laying on of hands isn't always necessary.

 

[Hoping2]

Cessationism isn't biblical​

I wasn't sure where to put this so here it is
One teacher defines cessationism as “the gifts and senior ministries have ceased as normative following the apostolic age”. In other words they are not part of the church anymore.
I think that defies common sense. Why would the Holy Spirit put all this instruction and teaching in the bible if 99% of the church would never have any benefit from it? It could easily have been taught in the early church without taking up all this room in the bible. Why did the early church get these blessings but not us? Is God playing favourites? I've heard some say they were only to get the church going. My response is what do the gifts of 1 Cor. 12 & 14 have to do with getting the church going

The same teacher said this:
Those who believe the gifts have continued up till today say there is nowhere in the bible that says they will stop. His answer was there is nowhere it says they will continue either. My response is both are specious. The very fact they are in the bible is the evidence they will continue.

My question is why are we encouraged to seek the best gifts, be zealous for and stir up excel and desire the gifts if the gifts are no longer there for us? It just simply defies all logical explanation.
The history of the church shows these gifts and ministries have continued right down through history A good book on that subject is:
2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity By Eddie L. Hyatt Its available on Thrift Books as well as Amazon.
I sometimes hear that there were only three main times in history when God moved supernaturally on the earth. However it would be more true to say that whenever the bible takes a detailed look at the world we see God moving supernaturally.
John Knox, George Fox, Martin Luther, The Wesleys, All functioned to some degree in the supernatural with some being considered prophets by their contemporaries. I think Saint Patrick of Ireland and some of those who followed him were Apostles.

Lets look at Apostles and Prophets.
Did they cease at the end of the apostolic age.?That belief really shows a serious lack of understanding of the purpose and role of these ministries. We're told that Apostles “were there” to get the church going. My contention is they “are there” to keep the church going.

Just to point out one issue among many.

Eph. 6/12
Apostles deal with the powers in the heavens. They have authority to to deal with the spiritual rulers of this world. One reason the early church was so successful is they overcame principalities and powers that keep this world in darkness. They also have authority to protect the church. I think it was a common office in the early church and will be common again in the last days. An apostle is all 5 of the ministry gifts.

What about prophets? Just an abysmal lack of understanding on their role in the church. Again just one issue. One of the ways God brings his will to pass in this world is through the prophesying of a prophet. He (or she) is not just foretelling the future but causing it to happen. There is a reason why Amos 3/ 7 says . . . “Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he reveals his secrets unto his servants the prophets”

Revelation 10/8-11
Notice verse 11 “thou must prophesy” MUST. The Greek word is the same as the English. Meaning: obliged, required, commanded, necessary, compelled, urged. In other words it had to be done. It was important and necessary.

Here's another one.
Jeremiah 1/5 ordained a prophet unto the nations
Jeremiah.1/10 set thee over nations kingdoms, to root out to pull down to destroy to throw down to build to plant”
You also see that said in various ways in the rest of the prophets.
Both 1 Cor. 12/28 and Eph 4/11-14 show God has set these ministries in the church ”until” we get to the same maturity Jesus walked in. Where does someone get the authority to take them out? Let alone the common sense!

If you're interested in more teaching concerning these ministries someone did a couple Youtube sermons on them. Also some good original music there. Warning. He is not a great orator. But like Paul he may be rude in speech but not in knowledge





The reality of Apostles and Prophets

Tests for True and False Apostles/Prophets

What about the gifts? Have they passed away? Why have all this info and instruction in the bible that does not apply to 99% of the church age. Cessationism shows a serious lack of understanding of the purpose of the gifts. They are there to edify the church and help those who are part of it. Do you enjoy helping your kids? Do you think God is any different? Everyone gets a gift. Contrary to what I've read over the years these gifts are 100% supernatural. They are not innate abilities or talent or wisdom as useful as that is.
There are different kinds of gifts and different ways they happen. Paul said having gifts differing. So there are no hard and fast rules. What Paul gives is a general outline with some mostly general thoughts. 1 Cor 12/7 Why would he say its given to every man if its only given to all in the early church? Here are a few thoughts on some of the gifts and again these are supernatural gifts. Not someones talents or abilities.

Romans 12/6-8
The gift of mercy. Someone I know found out he had this gift. A very manly fellow. Someone was in a painful physical trial and very little the medical could do. He sat with him sharing scripture and praying and comforting. Obviously anyone could do that out of a compassionate christian heart but this was a supernatural ability with supernatural results. He found out he had this gift. He used it to help and minister to another member of the church.

1Cor 12/28
The gift of Helps. Again a supernatural gift. It not a paid position by a junior minister in a mega church to take care of all the mundane tasks. Picking up visiting teachers from the airport for eg. Someone in a church I'm familiar with has this gift. He would be going about his business and being prompted by the Holy Spirit in some way. Would get in his car drive out to some back road where there was a sister in the church with a flat tire no phone and no idea what to do. Gift of helps is a supernatural gift

1Cor 12/8
How about word of wisdom/knowledge. Word of wisdom deals with the future while word of knowledge deals with the past or present. On occasion this has happened to me. The Holy Spirit wanted me to be aware of something and so be careful. Or to see clearly a problem with someone to help them. These are absolutely clear supernatural understandings not some vague sense or feeling or impression or thought. It is a definite action of the Holy Spirit that you can clearly see and understand

1Cor 12/9
Then there are gifts of Healing. Its in the plural as there are many diversities and kinds. A good eg is Acts 8/7. Phillip had gifts of healing for palsies and lameness. It has often happened in meetings I was in that someone would have word of knowledge that God wanted to heal something. It was always right on and sometimes for multiple people. I've seen the same thing with someone having a vision.

1Cor. 12/10
The discerning of Spirits .This is where you see into the spiritual realm to see personalities (good and evil) that normal eyesight won't give you. Here is a good eg. Some time ago I was sitting in my chair and a little girl my wife was watching ran down the hall in front of me. I saw with my eyes wide open clear as day a demon of child abuse following along behind her. Later when I was praying I took authority over it. (Luke 10/17-19) Do you think that little girl and her family would be grateful if they knew the Lord had intervened on her behalf?

1Cor. 12/10
What about the gift of Prophecy. We're told in 1 Cor 14/39 to “covet” to prophesy. Some well known theologians tell us these are the “very words of God” and need to be put on a par with scripture. The point being that prophecy today isn't valid. I'm not going to address that except to say I think it is nonsense. Why are we then encouraged by Paul to do it. Are all of us disciples going to add to scripture? We ordinary disciples prophesy by inspiration. A prophet prophesies by revelation. They see and participate in their prophecies. Read the prophets in the bible. A simple prophecy is designed to edify encourage exhort and comfort. Two times that I can remember I came to church feeling very down and then a simple prophecy came that just encouraged and lifted me. As it was intended to. By some simple disciple.

Receiving the Holy Spirit.
He was poured out at Pentecost to start the church. They all received and spoke in tongues. Including Jesus mother.
Poured out in Acts 10 to bring the gentiles into the church.
From that point on in the bible every time it is the laying on of hands or a prayer of faith
Acts 19/1-7 disciples at Ephesus
Acts 8/15-16 Phillip in Samaria
Galatians 3/2 received by faith (or asking)
Paul himself received by the laying on of hands Acts 9/15
Jesus said he will give the Holy Spirit to those who “ask him” Luke 11/13

If the Holy Spirit comes automatically at conversion or salvation then when and where did this change occur? Where is it in the bible?

Praying in the Spirit
12 Cor. 14/2 praying in tongues is praying in the spirit
Eph. 6/11-18 The armour of God Do only some of us have the opportunity to pray in tongues as part of the armour.
Rom 8/26-27 Do only some of us have the right to have the Holy Spirit pray through us according to the perfect will of God?
Jude 20 Praying in the spirit (or tongues) builds/strengthens/helps ourselves
1 Cor. 12 & 14 is almost entirely giving guidance on the gift of tongues used in the church. He contrasts it several times with the simple ability to pray in tongues. His expectation is that everyone would be praying in tongues

Why would Paul say forbid not to speak in tongues? Probably because he and the Holy Spirit knew there would be so much opposition to it. The reason being it is a marvelous gift and the Devil has no defense against it.

It is a known language. That is clearly said in Acts 2. Its not gibberish or ecstatic. It is a language that was, is or will be spoken in our world. Its just an unknown language to the person speaking it. My professor taught in a major seminary and prayed for many hundreds to receive the Holy Spirit. On occasion he would hear them speak Hebrew (which he taught) or Greek or German. Sometimes French or Arabic which he knew enough to recognize. My pastor visited a church with his family and Korean sister in law. Someone gave an utterance in tongues with the interpretation. She heard him speaking perfect Korean and the interpretation was the same. They are known languages.

Why did God intend us to speak in tongues?
One reason is so we know we have the Holy Spirit and not just some vague feeling. Paul said in the Spirit we speak mysteries. It completely bypasses our mind and intellect so God can deal with deep things inside us. More time in tongues means less time in counseling. He can deal with issues that our mind can't comprehend. Or complicated issues so he doesn't have to give long explanations. In interceding for others he can deal with issues without giving us all the info we don't need about someones else s life. Paul said over and over in Corinthians that by praying in tongues we edify ourself.

The bottom line is God does not play favorites. If you are hungry for more of God. Then the Holy Spirit with tongues is available to all. Just as God intended.

Why don't some Christians want the Holy Spirit and especially tongues
They are wrongly taught that it is not for today.
They're not hungry and don't care.
One very big reason is they think it is low class.
They are too proud and don't want to be a peculiar people. 1Peter 2/9
They are educated and don't need it like the common rabble out there.
One very big reason is fear. That's what they are taught. Jesus said he wouldn't give you a snake if you ask for a fish. Luke 11/11-13
Some think it is unclean or of the devil.
One very well known minister's entire ministry is built on his anger at the charismatics usurping the teaching ministry of the church. He wrote an entire book on it.
Another well known minister fasted 40 days to get it and couldn't overcome the fear his Baptist upbringing taught him.
One very well known mega church minister was a tower of opposition to the charismatic experience. A hungry person close to him asked him about it. His response was (quote) “if you get this experience that will end our relationship” So he knew it was real. One can only wonder what was going on deep inside him.
The cost is too great` What will others think? Other ministers/family/friends!

Well I know what God will think! Its those who hunger that are filled. Losing friendships being put out of your church being peculiar or whatever simply won't matter anymore. You will be close to Jesus and the world will fade into insignificance!

Question remains: Why is all this in the bible if it is of no value to 99% of us in the church age?
Dwight Moody said (paraphrasing and going by memory here) When he first started preaching it was like carrying buckets of water out to the people. When he received the Holy Spirit he was carried along in a great river.

If you're hungry for more of God and interested here are several short messages on how to receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said he will give the HS to those who “ask him” The laying on of hands isn't always necessary.

I didn't read the entire post, as it was way too long.
But, I agree with your contention.
The gifts are still being given today...to those deserving of them.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Cessationism isn't biblical

Now to present the other side of the "controversy"

The people stating they represent the biblical gifts have many fruits of occultism.

For example: When tongues events do not involve translation and include animal noises, this sounds like Shamanism, not the tongues of pentecost. As the bible teaches, test everything, keep to the good, avoid the appearance of evil.

Another example: Prophets rise up and act more like fortunetellers and double down when they're wrong.

Another example: healings are performed but people feel a burning in their hands taking on the appearance of buddhist practices like "Reiki."

During worship services people fall on the ground and start acting like a demon is being cast out of them, but based on the above indicators it is difficult to tell if a demon is going out or in.

I also believe God still gives gifts like at the beginning of the New Testament, but testing whether it is of God is essential.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Now to present the other side of the "controversy"

The people stating they represent the biblical gifts have many fruits of occultism.

For example: When tongues events do not involve translation and include animal noises, this sounds like Shamanism, not the tongues of pentecost. As the bible teaches, test everything, keep to the good, avoid the appearance of evil.

Another example: Prophets rise up and act more like fortunetellers and double down when they're wrong.

Another example: healings are performed but people feel a burning in their hands taking on the appearance of buddhist practices like "Reiki."

During worship services people fall on the ground and start acting like a demon is being cast out of them, but based on the above indicators it is difficult to tell if a demon is going out or in.

I also believe God still gives gifts like at the beginning of the New Testament, but testing whether it is of God is essential.

No doubt there are bad actors but it still doesn't nullify the gifts of His Holy Spirit. After all, they are gifts and His Holy Spirit still dwells in the faithful. Or has He simply " reclaimed " His gifts? I don't think so and we would need clear scriptural support to prove it.
Be blessed.

 

[DamianWarS]

Those who believe the gifts have continued up till today say there is nowhere in the bible that says they will stop. His answer was there is nowhere it says they will continue either. My response is both are specious. The very fact they are in the bible is the evidence they will continue.

If we accept sola scriptura (SS) it is a moot point. We defacto value all the gifts of the Spirit just as the new testament presents it. If we add a post biblical interjection then we are adding exceptions to SS (and to scripture) which is not how SS works. Either we value by scripture alone or we reject scripture as the sole infallible authority and use tradition to shape them as well but you can't have both.

 

[DamianWarS]

Now to present the other side of the "controversy"

The people stating they represent the biblical gifts have many fruits of occultism.

For example: When tongues events do not involve translation and include animal noises, this sounds like Shamanism, not the tongues of pentecost. As the bible teaches, test everything, keep to the good, avoid the appearance of evil.

Another example: Prophets rise up and act more like fortunetellers and double down when they're wrong.

Another example: healings are performed but people feel a burning in their hands taking on the appearance of buddhist practices like "Reiki."

During worship services people fall on the ground and start acting like a demon is being cast out of them, but based on the above indicators it is difficult to tell if a demon is going out or in.

I also believe God still gives gifts like at the beginning of the New Testament, but testing whether it is of God is essential.

The Corinthians church was over zealous about tongues too which prompted Paul's correction in Ch 12-14. Paul's focus is to be edification driven with the gift as it pertains to the body of believers but despite his correcting remarks he still concludes saying saying "do not forbid speaking in tongues" (14:39)

I would say this still applies and despite abuse it should still be taught (and corrected) exactly how the Bible presents it. Charismatics tend to be heavily motivated by experience and have even been known to use experience to inform doctrinal nuances regarding the gifts. With more main stream charismatics this doesn't tend to occupy official positions but still these experience-driven nuances are widely in practice which are not responsible places to be in.

With tongues, and broadly any manifestation of the Spirit, I lean towards 2 variants, one according the Paul and one according the Acts. Paul's speaks of edification of the body of Christ as the primary goal and that not all demonstrate the same gifts with his thought out examples of the functions of the body liken to the functions of the gifts, so the gifts are given discriminatly. However with Act we see all speak on tongues, all prophecy, all speak on boldness, etc... so the HS in Acts pours out these gifts indiscriminately to all which violates how Paul says the gifts should operate. So what gives?

The way I reconcile these differences is Paul speaks of conduct within the church, where Acts demonstrates manifestations upon outpouring events of the HS that have primary evangelistic goals in mind. This is not something I've seen identified within charismatics circles or outside. It seems it's all lumped as the same and with wide confusion. It may be part reason why its left unchecked because of poor understanding of the purpose of these gifts where in the church it's primarily focus should be of edification and outside more engaged with a Spirit led evangelistic response.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Corinthians church was over zealous about tongues too which prompted Paul's correction in Ch 12-14. Paul's focus is to be edification driven with the gift as it pertains to the body of believers but despite his correcting remarks he still concludes saying saying "do not forbid speaking in tongues" (14:39)

I would say this still applies and despite abuse it should still be taught (and corrected) exactly how the Bible presents it. Charismatics tend to be heavily motivated by experience and have even been known to use experience to inform doctrinal nuances regarding the gifts. With more main stream charismatics this doesn't tend to occupy official positions but still these experience-driven nuances are widely in practice which are not responsible places to be in.

With tongues, and broadly any manifestation of the Spirit, I lean towards 2 variants, one according the Paul and one according the Acts. Paul's speaks of edification of the body of Christ as the primary goal and that not all demonstrate the same gifts with his thought out examples of the functions of the body liken to the functions of the gifts, so the gifts are given discriminatly. However with Act we see all speak on tongues, all prophecy, all speak on boldness, etc... so the HS in Acts pours out these gifts indiscriminately to all which violates how Paul says the gifts should operate. So what gives?

The way I reconcile these differences is Paul speaks of conduct within the church, where Acts demonstrates manifestations upon outpouring events of the HS that have primary evangelistic goals in mind. This is not something I've seen identified within charismatics circles or outside. It seems it's all lumped as the same and with wide confusion. It may be part reason why its left unchecked because of poor understanding of the purpose of these gifts where in the church it's primarily focus should be of edification and outside more engaged with a Spirit led evangelistic need.

I've only focused on the Charismatic element of the puzzle, since it's the reason why there is cessationism at all.

Gifts continue to be given out by the Holy Spirit, people who have them avoid churches that won't help them grow in faith according to their gifts. It is probably also wise to avoid congregations that applaud the occult with the divine.

 

[Guojing]

Cessationism isn't biblical​

1Cor 12/9
Then there are gifts of Healing. Its in the plural as there are many diversities and kinds. A good eg is Acts 8/7. Phillip had gifts of healing for palsies and lameness. It has often happened in meetings I was in that someone would have word of knowledge that God wanted to heal something. It was always right on and sometimes for multiple people. I've seen the same thing with someone having a vision.

How do you think the gift of healings, if its still operational, operates today?

Do you know of anyone with that gift? And if they do have, are they 100% successful when they pray for healing, or is it still largely a random process, "depending on God's will"?

It is a known language. That is clearly said in Acts 2. Its not gibberish or ecstatic. It is a language that was, is or will be spoken in our world. Its just an unknown language to the person speaking it. My professor taught in a major seminary and prayed for many hundreds to receive the Holy Spirit. On occasion he would hear them speak Hebrew (which he taught) or Greek or German. Sometimes French or Arabic which he knew enough to recognize. My pastor visited a church with his family and Korean sister in law. Someone gave an utterance in tongues with the interpretation. She heard him speaking perfect Korean and the interpretation was the same. They are known languages.

Interestingly you are willing to restrict the gift of tongues to known languages.

If that is correct, then do you agree that most of what people do today in charismatic churches, under that "gift", are not known languages?

 

[DamianWarS]

It is a known language. That is clearly said in Acts 2.

Tongues, or other manifestations of the HS in Acts are given indiscriminately, all speak in tongues, all prophesy, all speak in boldness, etc... this goes against the teaching of the gifts of the HS according to Paul in 1 Cor 12-14 which he is explicit the gifts are given out discriminatly by the HS and not all speak in tongues, not all prophesy, etc...

I would suggest that Paul is speaking in a context within the church/gathering of the body of believers which is why his goal is about edification with all gifts. In Acts it is a unique evangelistic goal that is not described as the "gifts" of the HS ("charisma") but upon the onset of the "gift" of the HS ("dorea"), it also acts as evidence of the dorea of the HS as evident with Simon the sorcerer or with the house of Cornelius event. I'm not speaking of initial evidence with tongues which is a bit different topic but still evidence base.

I'm not even sure if we can say Acts is demonstrating the gifts of the HS at all. The word charisma is never used and the context is always dorea. All speak in tongues in Acts so does that mean all have the gift of tongues? This would conflict then Paul's teaching or is this a unique manifestation of the HS parallel to the charisma of the HS received upon the dorea of the HS intented for an empowering in a evangelistic role?

I do beleive there is enough to establish a subsequent experience since the way the HS looks in Act does not align with the discriminatly given gifts that Paul teaches in 1 Cor 12-14 nor is the same language used. With that said can we responsibility use Acts to inform us what the charisma of the HS looks like in Corinthians?

In Acts they speak in known languages to people who would recieve them so the known part was integral if used for an evangelistic role such as the classic case in Acts 2. In Corinthians the context is within a gathering of the body of believers and tongues always has a subsequent interpretation so everyone can understand but wether the tongue has known origins or not is really not the focus. Paul even characterizes the gift of tongues saying "no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (14:2) to establish the importance of an interpretation so that all can be edified.

I'm not trying to say gibberish is something we should encourage if it is truely gibberish or disorder which goes against Paul's teaching; we should only encourage that which is from the HS of course. But discernment of the language in question to identify its origins or to validate it is not the point, the validation comes from the interpretation which is also a gift of the HS and not from natural knowledge. It also comes from how it edifies the body of believers, this and the interpretation should be what validates it. But what business is it to me what language is spoken or even if it can be discernable so long as there is an interpretion and it edifies? I don't see Acts informing us the gift of tongues must be a naturally discernable language, but rather Paul's comments more leans on its indiscernible qualities which is why interpretation is needed.

Interpretation also as a whole is only paired with tongues biblically speaking and I don't see a biblical context of the gift of interpretation operating from an individual speaking in their natural tongue without anyone being able to naturally interpret. I'm not saying that can't happen but biblically speaking the gift is paired with the gift of tongues, but whether the tongue in question is discernible is not the focus (the focus actually is the tongue is defacto indiscernible)

 

[ARBITER01]

It is a known language. That is clearly said in Acts 2. Its not gibberish or ecstatic. It is a language that was, is or will be spoken in our world. Its just an unknown language to the person speaking it.

The gifts of The Spirit is a very mature topic of our Christian walk. You should spend more time getting things correct doctrinally before you try to teach others. In other words, yes, the gift of tongues is not understandable.

 

[Hoping2]

How do you think the gift of healings, if its still operational, operates today?

Yes.

Do you know of anyone with that gift? And if they do have, are they 100% successful when they pray for healing, or is it still largely a random process, "depending on God's will"?

No.

Interestingly you are willing to restrict the gift of tongues to known languages.

I believe in, as Paul said..."diversities of tongues". (1 Cor 12:28)
One style, is like the initial dispensation of it on the day of Pentecost...foreign languages.
The other style is the speaking of the Holy Spirit through us when alone, or in a church environment with an interpreter present.
The first is for a witness to probable foreigners. The second, is for our own edification; or if an interpreter is present, those present with us.

If that is correct, then do you agree that most of what people do today in charismatic churches, under that "gift", are not known languages?

I agree, type 2, and mostly without an interpreter. (which should not be done)

 

[ARBITER01]

As a Triune believing Pentecostal that our church does operate in the gifts, I'll entertain your cessationist questions for a bit,...

How do you think the gift of healings, if its still operational, operates today?

Yes, GOD does not discriminate with the gifts. If a born again Christian seeks the filling of The Holy Spirit, they will receive. The gifts of healings is a greater gift, one of the power gifts.

Do you know of anyone with that gift? And if they do have, are they 100% successful when they pray for healing, or is it still largely a random process, "depending on God's will"?

I don't know of anyone currently operating in that gift/ministry. I doubt there is anyone if the body currently with that ministry.

The only Christian that I have ever read about that operated 100% successfully with that ministry was Maria Woodworth-Etter. Anyone she laid hands upon for healing was healed, no matter what the ailment was. That is actually quite rare as most Christians who have such a ministry will only specialize in an area or maybe 2 of healing from GOD.

Interestingly you are willing to restrict the gift of tongues to known languages.

If that is correct, then do you agree that most of what people do today in charismatic churches, under that "gift", are not known languages?

The gift of tongues has never been in known languages. It has always required the gift of interpretation to be understood in human languages.

 

[Guojing]

Yes.

No.

As in no, you do not know anyone who is alive today, with the gift of healing?

I believe in, as Paul said..."diversities of tongues". (1 Cor 12:28)
One style, is like the initial dispensation of it on the day of Pentecost...foreign languages.
The other style is the speaking of the Holy Spirit through us when alone, or in a church environment with an interpreter present.
The first is for a witness to probable foreigners. The second, is for our own edification; or if an interpreter is present, those present with us.

So now you expand the definition of tongues to free speech type as well.

What do you think Paul meant then when he said in 1 Cor 14 that tongues are for a sign not to those who believe but those who believe not, and he referenced Isaiah 28?

Are you aware that, whenever Israel heard a foreign language that they do not understand during the OT, such as during the exile in Isaiah 28, its always a sign of judgement from God?

 

[Guojing]

I don't know of anyone currently operating in that gift/ministry. I doubt there is anyone if the body currently with that ministry.

Nowadays, when I am unwell or when people ask me to pray for them if they are unwell, I just follow what Paul instructed us in Philippians 4:6-7 and trust that God will give us the peace no matter what happens after that.

The gift of tongues has never been in known languages. It has always required the gift of interpretation to be understood in human languages.

Paul made that clear in 1 Corinthians 14:22 tongues are for a sign

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. [KJV]

All signs are for the nation Israel (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)

In the specific case of tongues, tongues are a sign of impending judgment to unbelieving Israel.

This teaching from Paul came from Isaiah 28 (1 Corinthians 14:21), so to understand what Paul meant there, you have to understand first the context of that chapter.

If you are aware of the context of Isa 28, when Israel rejected God's covenant of the Law, and made fun of the prophet Isaiah who was sent to warn them in Isaiah 28, in judgement, God caused the northern kingdom of Israel to fall to the Assyrians.

The Israelites (the northern kingdom) were so hard-hearted and stubborn in breaching their covenant with God that God sent a judgment upon them (the Assyrian nation – who spoke in the Akkadian language – a foreign language that Israel would not have known) by bringing them into Assyrian captivity.

So I certainly disagree with your point that "It has always required the gift of interpretation to be understood in human languages.".

If I am a member of the nation of Israel in exile then, no one needed to interpret the Akkadian language for me to understand that it was an actual human language, and that I am being judged by God.

The cross reference can be found in Jeremiah 5:15

15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

Other cross references include

Deuteronomy 28:49
The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand,

Isaiah 33:19
You will see no more the insolent people, the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend, stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.

 

[swordsman1]

Cessationism isn't biblical​

I wasn't sure where to put this so here it is
One teacher defines cessationism as “the gifts and senior ministries have ceased as normative following the apostolic age”. In other words they are not part of the church anymore.
I think that defies common sense. Why would the Holy Spirit put all this instruction and teaching in the bible if 99% of the church would never have any benefit from it? It could easily have been taught in the early church without taking up all this room in the bible. Why did the early church get these blessings but not us? Is God playing favourites? I've heard some say they were only to get the church going. My response is what do the gifts of 1 Cor. 12 & 14 have to do with getting the church going

The same teacher said this:
Those who believe the gifts have continued up till today say there is nowhere in the bible that says they will stop. His answer was there is nowhere it says they will continue either. My response is both are specious. The very fact they are in the bible is the evidence they will continue.

My question is why are we encouraged to seek the best gifts, be zealous for and stir up excel and desire the gifts if the gifts are no longer there for us? It just simply defies all logical explanation.
The history of the church shows these gifts and ministries have continued right down through history A good book on that subject is:
2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity By Eddie L. Hyatt Its available on Thrift Books as well as Amazon.
I sometimes hear that there were only three main times in history when God moved supernaturally on the earth. However it would be more true to say that whenever the bible takes a detailed look at the world we see God moving supernaturally.
John Knox, George Fox, Martin Luther, The Wesleys, All functioned to some degree in the supernatural with some being considered prophets by their contemporaries. I think Saint Patrick of Ireland and some of those who followed him were Apostles.

Lets look at Apostles and Prophets.
Did they cease at the end of the apostolic age.?That belief really shows a serious lack of understanding of the purpose and role of these ministries. We're told that Apostles “were there” to get the church going. My contention is they “are there” to keep the church going.

Just to point out one issue among many.

Eph. 6/12
Apostles deal with the powers in the heavens. They have authority to to deal with the spiritual rulers of this world. One reason the early church was so successful is they overcame principalities and powers that keep this world in darkness. They also have authority to protect the church. I think it was a common office in the early church and will be common again in the last days. An apostle is all 5 of the ministry gifts.

What about prophets? Just an abysmal lack of understanding on their role in the church. Again just one issue. One of the ways God brings his will to pass in this world is through the prophesying of a prophet. He (or she) is not just foretelling the future but causing it to happen. There is a reason why Amos 3/ 7 says . . . “Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he reveals his secrets unto his servants the prophets”

Revelation 10/8-11
Notice verse 11 “thou must prophesy” MUST. The Greek word is the same as the English. Meaning: obliged, required, commanded, necessary, compelled, urged. In other words it had to be done. It was important and necessary.

Here's another one.
Jeremiah 1/5 ordained a prophet unto the nations
Jeremiah.1/10 set thee over nations kingdoms, to root out to pull down to destroy to throw down to build to plant”
You also see that said in various ways in the rest of the prophets.
Both 1 Cor. 12/28 and Eph 4/11-14 show God has set these ministries in the church ”until” we get to the same maturity Jesus walked in. Where does someone get the authority to take them out? Let alone the common sense!

If you're interested in more teaching concerning these ministries someone did a couple Youtube sermons on them. Also some good original music there. Warning. He is not a great orator. But like Paul he may be rude in speech but not in knowledge

The problem is what people today claim to be charismatic gifts of the Spirit do not match the biblical definition of those gifts.

In scripture, apostles are always referring to a unique group of authoritative leaders ("THE apostles"). They were the foundation that the church was built on (Eph 2:20). They had to be an eye witness of the risen Lord Jesus in the flesh (Acts 1:22, 1 Cor 9:1) and they were personally appointed by Christ or another member of the Godhead (Mark 3:14; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:2, 24; 10:41; Gal. 1:1). They had as much authority as Christ himself (Luke 10:16, 2 Peter 3:2, 1 Cor. 14:37). They were able to perform miraculous signs to confirm their authority (2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:3–4, Matt. 10:1–2; Acts 1:5–8; 2:43; 4:33; 5:12; 8:14). Consequently there cannot be apostles today as the bible describes that gift. Missionaries or church planters are not apostles, nor are those self-appointed, self-aggrandising apostles of the despicable NAR.

Prophecy in scripture is only ever described as God verbally speaking to a prophet in a dream or vision which was then passed on verbatim to its intended recipient. The mechanism of prophecy is clearly described in 1 Samuel 3, and throughout scripture it was always "Thus says the Lord: <exact words quoted>". Nowhere in scripture is it described as having a strong impression which is what people today claim is prophecy.

Tongues, as you rightly point out, was always known languages. The only description of tongues is in Act 2 and it is clearly people miraculously speaking in a foreign human language they have never learned. There is no other scripture that overrides that description to create a 2nd type of "heavenly language" tongues. Foreign language tongues is fully compatible with 1 Corinthians. Appeals to 1 Cor 14:2 or 1 Cor 13:1 is taking those verses out of context. Historically the church has always understood tongues to be foreign languages, right up until the beginning of the 20th century when the Pentecostal movement invented a new definition. Although there are many claims of proper foreign language tongues today, the problem there is never any undisputable proof. It is always hearsay.

If the Holy Spirit comes automatically at conversion or salvation then when and where did this change occur? Where is it in the bible?

Rom 8.9 "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Eph 1:13 " In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"

Gal 3:2 "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"

John 7:38-39 "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit"

Gal 3:14 "so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."

1 Cor 12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."

 

[ARBITER01]

Nowadays, when I am unwell or when people ask me to pray for them if they are unwell, I just follow what Paul instructed us in Philippians 4:6-7 and trust that God will give us the peace no matter what happens after that.

There are quite a few ways in scripture that a Christian can seek healing from GOD, the ministry gift of the gifts of healings is just as valid, the problem is it is not an easy gift/ministry to obtain and keep. It takes quite a bit of dedication.

Paul made that clear in 1 Corinthians 14:22 tongues are for a sign,....

Given that big paragraph of spam you just posted, you don't understand this particular gift and it's operation, and I doubt you ever will.

 

[Guojing]

There are quite a few ways in scripture that a Christian can seek healing from GOD, the ministry gift of the gifts of healings is just as valid, the problem is it is not an easy gift/ministry to obtain and keep. It takes quite a bit of dedication.

Well, if the gift of salvation, which is the greatest gift, is given and received freely by faith, I won't think the gift of healing, if indeed is present today, requires anything more than that.

Given that big paragraph of spam you just posted, you don't understand this particular gift and it's operation, and I doubt you ever will.

I used scripture in my explanation.

If you have a different interpretation of those passages in order to derive your particular doctrine of "It has always required the gift of interpretation to be understood in human languages.", that is fine with me. We can agree to disagree,

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, if the gift of salvation, which is the greatest gift, is given and received freely by faith, I won't think the gift of healing, if indeed is present today, requires anything more than that.

If it was that easy, then everyone would have it.

Ministries are given by The Lord Jesus, and it is up to Him if a person is really ready for such a thing.

 

[Hoping2]

As in no, you do not know anyone who is alive today, with the gift of healing?

Correct: I answered the questions in order.

So now you expand the definition of tongues to free speech type as well.

Yes, as there were two types of the gift of tongues in the bible.

What do you think Paul meant then when he said in 1 Cor 14 that tongues are for a sign not to those who believe but those who believe not, and he referenced Isaiah 28?

The type of tongues Paul refers to in 1 Cor 14:22, is the foreign language type.
If an unbeliever hears a (believing) foreigner speaking his native language, it will compel that man to sit up and take heed.
As for Isaiah, (v21), even the gift of tongues won't make Israel believe.

Are you aware that, whenever Israel heard a foreign language that they do not understand during the OT, such as during the exile in Isaiah 28, its always a sign of judgement from God?

I do not feel that is necessarily true.

 

[Guojing]

As for Isaiah, (v21), even the gift of tongues won't make Israel believe.

No one said the tongues will make the nation of Israel believe.

I am saying if Israel hear tongues, its a sign that they are unbelieving.

Its the same situation in Acts 2. The nation is in judgement for crucifying their Messiah (Acts 2:36). Even then, only a small remnant believe and were cut in their hearts (Acts 2:37)

I do not feel that is necessarily true.

Then you need to show scripture that says when Israel heard a foreign language that they do not understand, it is something else other than judgement from God.

This actually goes way back before Israel was even formed, if you recall the story of the Tower of Babel.