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Communism- Socialism

Fervent

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I don’t think you can quantify “most”. I can agree to some.
Ok
Well, car mechanic work has also changed substantially. Newer cars just about diagnose themselves so they are relegated to part changers. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.
To a certain degree, but there's still a growing disparity when the shops are charging 5-8x what they're paying their mechanics compared to the roughly 50/50 split that most shops gave in the 80s. Especially since most shops require the mechanics to pay for their own tools.
 
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RDKirk

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Health care is poorly served precisely because it's not a free market, it's a captive market.
Well, so is food.
There is strong information disparity and buyers are pretty much stuck with whoever they can get care from in most cases.
Something similar happens with food.
 
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Fervent

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Well, so is food.
In some cases, but not to the same extent. Most people aren't faced with the choice of immediately buying a particular food or starving, and there isn't as much information disparity between buyers and sellers.
Something similar happens with food.
Similar, but its quite a bit different. It's far easier to comparison shop, to become informed about costs and quality issues, etc. Food does display some elements of captive markets, but competition pressure is far more viable in food than in healthcare. Especially given the number of patients who are unconscious when they receive medical treatment so basically have to pay whatever the hospital bills them at.
 
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RDKirk

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To me it is the same.
Price and value are often not the same.

First, value is always a matter of worth to the buyer. But just because a think is worth less doesn't always mean the price goes down. The market for new cars, for instance, is plunging...but the prices aren't going down.

And during the Covid lockdown, we learned that certain low-paying jobs were, in fact, essential to society...yet their pay doesn't match their essentiality.
 
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RDKirk

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Every company after Covid have raised their prices including all companies from small to large. I don’t like it. Some companies are probably taking advantage of it but others are just trying to recuperate from the banging they got under Covid.
So, what would be wrong with workers recuperating from the banging they also got under Covid. Yes, some areas got increased pay, but many didn't. And where pay was increased, it was only because workers staged what was effectively a strike in those areas.
Labor had also come up quite a bit particularly in the construction and automotive sector. Insurance, for example, had increased dramatically because of what it now costs to rebuild a house or repair a car. It’s obscene. Home contractors are making a killing.
That is not attributable to an increase in the pay of the workers themselves.
 
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Hentenza

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So, what would be wrong with workers recuperating from the banging they also got under Covid. Yes, some areas got increased pay, but many didn't. And where pay was increased, it was only because workers staged what was effectively a strike in those areas.
how many did not?
That is not attributable to an increase in the pay of the workers themselves.
You do not know that.
 
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Fervent

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That is not attributable to an increase in the pay of the workers themselves.
Yep...a friend of mine used to be in construction, started in the mid-80s at $18 an hour. A few years ago we were looking at job postings for construction workers, starting pay was $16 an hour. Which is fairly typical of most industries, where workers haven't seen nominal wages go up in a minimum of 30 years. On the other hand, productivity across the board has gone up many times over. So workers are getting paid less for the same work by quite a bit, and then businesses double down by raising prices so laborers dollars aren't going as far.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, car mechanic work has also changed substantially. Newer cars just about diagnose themselves so they are relegated to part changers. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.
Whoa, that is totally an argument based on ignorance of the matter.

It's totally untrue that "newer cars just about diagnose themselves." The basic lament for those who work on cars (including myself) is "Mechanics hate engineers." Modern cars are far, far, far more difficult to repair than older cars were. It takes at least five times longer, for instance, to change a head gasket today than it did 30 years ago. Heck, 30 years ago I overhauled an engine in my carport; today...no way.

They're not even easier to diagnose. Scanners merely point to what sensor is making a complaint; why that sensor is making a complaint still requires diagnosis. Very ignorant people (and there are many of them) will simply replace the complaining sensor...which is plainly stupid considering the sensor usually isn't broken, it's just complaining about the condition it was designed to monitor. That's like someone with a fever replacing the thermometer.

But why the condition is running out of specifications may be for a host of reasons that require much more examination of all the contributing factors, and there are far more contributing factors in today's much more complex automobiles.
 
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Hentenza

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Price and value are often not the same.
In practice it is.
First, value is always a matter of worth to the buyer. But just because a think is worth less doesn't always mean the price goes down. The market for new cars, for instance, is plunging...but the prices aren't going down.
Might want to look at the price of cars again. Most are no longer selling over invoice and most manufacturers are now giving rebates. Car dealerships are dealing price.
And during the Covid lockdown, we learned that certain low-paying jobs were, in fact, essential to society...yet their pay doesn't match their essentiality.
How so? For example, most hospitals in Houston added a hazard pay to their front line workers.
 
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RDKirk

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In some cases, but not to the same extent. Most people aren't faced with the choice of immediately buying a particular food or starving, and there isn't as much information disparity between buyers and sellers.
But people do have to buy food, and for many people there aren't that many different food outlets available.

My own neighborhood is about to become a technical food desert next month when the nearby Tom Thumb closes. The next closest grocery store will be a Whole Foods about five miles away...which is both too far and too expensive for many of the people who depended on that Tom Thumb.

Similar, but its quite a bit different. It's far easier to comparison shop, to become informed about costs and quality issues, etc. Food does display some elements of captive markets, but competition pressure is far more viable in food than in healthcare. Especially given the number of patients who are unconscious when they receive medical treatment so basically have to pay whatever the hospital bills them at.

The difference in available information is between "no information" for medical care and "misinformation" for food.
 
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Fervent

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But people do have to buy food, and for many people there aren't that many different food outlets available.

My own neighborhood is about to become a technical food desert next month when the nearby Tom Thumb closes. The next closest grocery store will be a Whole Foods about five miles away...which is both too far and too expensive for many of the people who depended on that Tom Thumb.
Food deserts are definitely an issue, especially the disproportionate impact they have on poorer neighborhoods. So yeah, food can operate as a captive market so its similar to health care in that regard. Though its more of an location by location issue, while healthcare is generally a global problem.
The difference in available information is between "no information" for medical care and "misinformation" for food.
Yeah, misinformation is a problem in food. As is the fact that healthier foods tend to be more expensive and less plentiful in poorer areas. But insurance has made healthcare costs a nightmare, especially since how much a given treatment costs depends largely on who it is that's paying and what agreements exist rather than being inherent to the procedure.
 
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Hentenza

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Whoa, that is totally an argument based on ignorance of the matter.

It's totally untrue that "newer cars just about diagnose themselves." The basic lament for those who work on cars (including myself) is "Mechanics hate engineers." Modern cars are far, far, far more difficult to repair than older cars were. It takes at least five times longer, for instance, to change a head gasket today than it did 30 years ago. Heck, 30 years ago I overhauled an engine in my carport; today...no way.

They're not even easier to diagnose. Scanners merely point to what sensor is making a complaint; why that sensor is making a complaint still requires diagnosis. Very ignorant people (and there are many of them) will simply replace the complaining sensor...which is plainly stupid considering the sensor usually isn't broken, it's just complaining about the condition it was designed to monitor.

But why the condition is running out of specifications may be for a host of reasons that require much more examination of all the contributing factors, and there are far more contributing factors in today's much more complex automobiles.
Great. I’m an engineer so now I know how you feel about me lol. While some of what you say is true, I am able to work on my two year old truck much easier these days because the computer gives me the error code and the program gives me the probable cause. I like working on my own cars. Repairing cars in the old days were simpler in the sense of less parts and easier to repair in the sense of part replacement because of more space in the motor compartment, however, much harder to tune and make them run efficiently.

As far as body shop mechanics, is all about part replacement these days. Most don‘t repair body components any more.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Prohibition merely gave the mob another product to peddle. They were already into quite other enterprises by then.
So which was it? Unions were already corrupted by the mob *before* Prohibition, or unions were corrupted *after* Prohibition when the mob needed new revenue streams?
 
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Hentenza

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So which was it? Unions were already corrupted by the mob *before* Prohibition, or unions were corrupted *after* Prohibition when the mob needed new revenue streams?
No need for the ”or”.
 
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Vambram

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BCP1928

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Great. I’m an engineer so now I know how you feel about me lol. While some of what you say is true, I am able to work on my two year old truck much easier these days because the computer gives me the error code and the program gives me the probable cause. I like working on my own cars. Repairing cars in the old days were simpler in the sense of less parts and easier to repair in the sense of part replacement because of more space in the motor compartment, however, much harder to tune and make them run efficiently.

As far as body shop mechanics, is all about part replacement these days. Most don‘t repair body components any more.
Yes, it's all part of the movement to de-skill the workforce so they can be paid less. The fantasy is that productivity improvements all belong to capital so there is no need to pay a worker any more just because he is more productive. That has been going on for some time. I was an industrial engineer myself back when GE first started getting into CNC, and they were quite frank about it in seminars and papers, They wanted skilled machinists out of the shop. It didn't really work out for them, but it has succeeded with some other trades in other industries.
 
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Hentenza

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Yes, it's all part of the movement to de-skill the workforce so they can be paid less. The fantasy is that productivity improvements all belong to capital so there is no need to pay a worker any more just because he is more productive. That has been going on for some time. I was an industrial engineer myself back when GE first started getting into CNC, and they were quite frank about it in seminars and papers, They wanted skilled machinists out of the shop. It didn't really work out for them, but it has succeeded with some other trades in other industries.
The sad part is that the trend will probably now accelerate with the advent of AI. The world is changing at a fast pace and I don’t think we have the leadership in either party to make the right decisions to keep up with these changes.
 
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BCP1928

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So which was it? Unions were already corrupted by the mob *before* Prohibition, or unions were corrupted *after* Prohibition when the mob needed new revenue streams?
Unions were corrupt from the very beginning, their whole purpose is corrupt from the standpoint of conservatives, stealing from honest and responsible business owners things like an eight hour day, a forty hour week, overtime pay, safe working conditions. Unions are bold and dangerous, sometimes pursuing their nefarious objectives in the face of actual gunfire. The laziness and greed of the working class is unbounded and unions are their enablers.
 
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RDKirk

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Great. I’m an engineer so now I know how you feel about me lol.
I'm aware that repairability is not one of the criteria that auto engineers are given to design for.
While some of what you say is true, I am able to work on my two year old truck much easier these days because the computer gives me the error code and the program gives me the probable cause. I like working on my own cars. Repairing cars in the old days were simpler in the sense of less parts and easier to repair in the sense of part replacement because of more space in the motor compartment, however, much harder to tune and make them run efficiently.
The components that require error codes didn't even exist on cars 30-50 years ago (going back to when I first started working on cars...ODB didn't exist, and its use was for components that were only developed after its emergence. IOW, it didn't solve any problems we already had, it just alleviated problems that came with it. The same is true, in spades, for CANBUS. The program doesn't really give you probable cause, it tells you what element is out of specification. That's like a thermometer telling you that you have a fever and a look-up source telling you all the things that can cause a fever.

Back in the day, a bad tail light didn't brick $5,600 worth of vital computerized components; a bad radio didn't brick $3,000 worth of vital computerized components.
As far as body shop mechanics, is all about part replacement these days. Most don‘t repair body components any more.
Not what we were talking about, though.
 
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BCP1928

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I'm aware that repairability is not one of the criteria that auto engineers are given to design for.

The components that require error codes didn't even exist on cars 30-50 years ago (going back to when I first started working on cars...ODB didn't exist, and its use was for components that were only developed after its emergence. IOW, it didn't solve any problems we already had, it just alleviated problems that came with it. The same is true, in spades, for CANBUS. The program doesn't really give you probable cause, it tells you what element is out of specification. That's like a thermometer telling you that you have a fever and a look-up source telling you all the things that can cause a fever.

Back in the day, a bad tail light didn't brick $5,600 worth of vital computerized components; a bad radio didn't brick $3,000 worth of vital computerized components.

Not what we were talking about, though.
You don't get it RD--blue collar workers are basically just parasites on the economy. :D
 
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