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Communism- Socialism

bèlla

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Sure, but megacorporations being given tax dollars to build is far more objectionable than tax dollars going to needy individuals, and if you're defending the megacorporations you're on the wrong side of things ethically.

If you’re bothered by that why don’t you do something different? Christians always complain about what isn’t right but never want to be the example. You sit at home typing your grievances instead of rolling up your sleeves and getting involved. It’s getting old and tiresome.

~bella
 
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Fervent

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If you’re bothered by that why don’t you do something different? Christians always complain about what isn’t right but never want to be the example. You sit at home typing your grievances instead of rolling up your sleeves and getting involved. It’s getting old and tiresome.

~bella
What, pray-tell, do you want me to do besides exercising my political rights and raising awareness about the unethical nature of paying megacorporations tax money? I vote my conscience and speak out on it, do you expect me to wave some magic wand and eliminate such corrupt practices?
 
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RDKirk

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Sorry but I could never agree to increasing the power of labor unions. There is a lot of corruption among them. I witnessed their corruption personally during my professional career. What RD Kirk proposes seems a bit more reasonable.
Heck, there is a lot of corruption in Congress. There's a lot of corruption on Wall Street.

“If labor is to enter into the life of the Republic, it must organize; for organized capital is already entrenched.” -- Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Hentenza

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Heck, there is a lot of corruption in Congress. There's a lot of corruption on Wall Street.
Definitely and it’s being going on for decades.
“If labor is to enter into the life of the Republic, it must organize; for organized capital is already entrenched.” -- Theodore Roosevelt
Most ideologies are beautiful on paper, such as labor unions or even communism, but in practice not so much. Unions have also been corrupted for decades.
 
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RDKirk

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Definitely and it’s being going on for decades.

Most ideologies are beautiful on paper, such as labor unions or even communism, but in practice not so much. Unions have also been corrupted for decades.
Unions are the reason Communism did not invade the US...which is the reason Theodore Roosevelt supported them. Unions gave enough power to labor against the established power of the robber barons that fire-stopped Communist revolution.

If you work a 40-hour week, get breaks during the day, get overtime pay, get holidays and vacations...union members literally shed blood to force those labor expectations into the national zeitgeist.

And what happened when the power of unions was broken by President Reagan...labor began losing all those gains because ultimately business wants labor to be free. It is a constant human tension.
 
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Hentenza

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Unions are the reason Communism did not invade the US...which is the reason Theodore Roosevelt supported them. Unions gave enough power to labor against the established power of the robber barons that fire-stopped Communist revolution.

If you work a 40-hour week, get breaks during the day, get overtime pay, get holidays and vacations...union members literally shed blood to force those labor expectations into the national zeitgeist.

And what happened when the power of unions was broken by President Reagan...labor began losing all those gains because ultimately business wants labor to be free. It is a constant human tension.
Here is a short history of union corruption from the late 1800 to the 1970’s. It’s not a long read.

The enactment of Prohibition made America’s beer taps run dry, but it caused mobsters’ coffers to overflow from a booming bootleg liquor business. Flush with cash and power, criminal gangs such as the American Mafia transformed into sophisticated enterprises that diversified their illegal activities to include gambling, prostitution and labor racketeering. Mobsters such as Al Capone and New York’s Five Familiesexpanded their underworld empires by infiltrating organized labor. Through intimidation and corruption, the mob used the labor unions for everything from extortion, bribery and embezzlement to price-fixing and kickbacks.

 
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Hentenza

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Here s another article regarding corruption in unions. This one extends to present time.

Corruption by labor union officials, whether in service to themselves, political allies, or organized crime syndicates, has been a fixture of American labor history since the labor movement first began to organize in the late 19th century. While the extent of criminal influence in organized labor has declined thanks to extensive federal law enforcement activity and judicial oversight, major corruption scandals continue to dog the union movement. From the recent kickback scheme at the United Auto Workers to the downfall of Philadelphia union boss and political fixer Johnny Doc Dougherty to the confession of former Teamsters boss John Coli, who was well connected to Chicago politicos, systemic corruption persists.

 
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Hans Blaster

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Here is a short history of union corruption from the late 1800 to the 1970’s. It’s not a long read.

The enactment of Prohibition made America’s beer taps run dry, but it caused mobsters’ coffers to overflow from a booming bootleg liquor business. Flush with cash and power, criminal gangs such as the American Mafia transformed into sophisticated enterprises that diversified their illegal activities to include gambling, prostitution and labor racketeering. Mobsters such as Al Capone and New York’s Five Familiesexpanded their underworld empires by infiltrating organized labor. Through intimidation and corruption, the mob used the labor unions for everything from extortion, bribery and embezzlement to price-fixing and kickbacks.


Looks like busybody Christians (temperance movement) triggering a crime wave and the associated lawlessness downstream.
 
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Hentenza

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Looks like busybody Christians (temperance movement) triggering a crime wave and the associated lawlessness downstream.
Is always the Christians lol. I guess you didn’t read the article.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Is always the Christians lol. I guess you didn’t read the article.
I'm just working the causality backward. The mob moved into corrupting groups (like unions) after prohibition for new sources of revenue. The mob would never have been so powerful in the first place without prohibition, so we need to ask ourselves who was behind that. The answer is clear -- Anglo-Protestant temporence fanatics.
 
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7thKeeper

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And companies don't spend money lobbying politicians? Seems a rather strange objection that unions would *gasp* lobby for labor friendly laws.

THis is nonsense. Unions increase membership voices by reducing the power imbalance inherent in a employer-employee relationship.

Where exactly is this happening?

And the corporations spending money on lobbying against their interests? This is just point 1 repeated, and it's no more serious an objection than it was the first time.

Adversarial to who? Unions attitudes depend on their membership and the employer's response. If the employer is trying to graft the members, why wouldn't they be adversarial?

This is a blanket statement that requires some kind of citation.

This is another spurious objection, that "one-size-fits-all" contract is likely to be a better contracct than individuals could secure on their own given the fact that the employer can do without any specific employee, but not their whole workforce.

Against their employer? Yeah, there are arbitration issues. But members can sue their union. And generally the grievance processes are speedier and more beneficial to the union members than they could achieve through the courts due to the expense of legal precedings.

This is made up polemics, while the union does advocate for employees primarily there is no blanket advocacy. It just means the company has to go through the right procedures and documentation to get rid of employees rather than being able to dismiss them at will.

Another scaremongering falsehood.
Being from a nation where approx 75% of workers belong to an union, I always find American scaremongering about unions to be amusing. Theres also a large participation from the employers side in their own unions as well.
 
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Hentenza

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I'm just working the causality backward. The mob moved into corrupting groups (like unions) after prohibition for new sources of revenue. The mob would never have been so powerful in the first place without prohibition, so we need to ask ourselves who was behind that. The answer is clear -- Anglo-Protestant temporence fanatics.
Prohibition merely gave the mob another product to peddle. They were already into quite other enterprises by then.
 
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RDKirk

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Here is a short history of union corruption from the late 1800 to the 1970’s. It’s not a long read.

The enactment of Prohibition made America’s beer taps run dry, but it caused mobsters’ coffers to overflow from a booming bootleg liquor business. Flush with cash and power, criminal gangs such as the American Mafia transformed into sophisticated enterprises that diversified their illegal activities to include gambling, prostitution and labor racketeering. Mobsters such as Al Capone and New York’s Five Familiesexpanded their underworld empires by infiltrating organized labor. Through intimidation and corruption, the mob used the labor unions for everything from extortion, bribery and embezzlement to price-fixing and kickbacks.

Shall I begin posting articles about corruption in just about everything?
 
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RDKirk

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Prohibition merely gave the mob another product to peddle. They were already into quite other enterprises by then.
So, all those other enterprises (ahem, businesses) were already corrupted.
 
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Hentenza

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So, all those other enterprises (ahem, businesses) were already corrupted.
I’m sure that you understand which enterprises they were into from their beginnings in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. I’m sure you would not consider racketeering, prostitution, gambling, and other enterprises to not have been corrupted.
 
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Hentenza

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Shall I begin posting articles about corruption in just about everything?
Sure. Let’s have some fun but I thought the topic was labor unions.
 
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durangodawood

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Sure. Let’s have some fun but I thought the topic was labor unions.
Seems like youve been trying to disparage the idea of labor unions in principle by pointing out instances of corruption.

But that argument is significantly blunted when we realize how much corruption has occured on the corporate side. Corruption becomes just this thing we have to look out for in human endeavor generally.
 
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