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Communism- Socialism

Fervent

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Yarn? Now you are being disingenuous. If you want to have a civil conversation you don’t insult the people you are talking to. What I stated happened and something that I witnessed. Also, the card that workers sign at the beginning of the process allows the union to legally represent the worker. The union negotiators do have the legal power to sign the contract. By the way, the union reps got the workers to vote for the contract by telling them that it was a temporary contract and further negotiations would happen.
Unions don't have the power to sign the contract, it has to be voted on by the membership after it's been negotiated. They have the power to represent the membership to negotiate the contract, but the membership has to vote to approve the contract once it's been negotiated. And if the union reps lied to the memberhip to secure a vote, the membership could sue to have the contract vacated because it wasn't negotiated in good faith. So while you may have an anecdote of a bad union that doesn't negate the benefits that unions provide, it just shows that not all unions operate in good faith. I called it a yarn not because I don't believe you, but because anecdotes aren't arguments.
 
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CaDan

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The union negotiators do have the legal power to sign the contract.
This is not the case. I represented a small union in contract negotiations earlier this year and signed nothing. The contract had to be signed by the elected union reps--actual workers--and then ratified by vote of the workers.
 
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Hentenza

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What other reason could a business owner have in oppoing unions, other than an intention to take advantage of their employees disadvantaged bargaining position? Unions simplify the bargaining process by negotiating a single contract instead of having to negotiate with every single employee, so what possible reason besides an intent to exploit their employees could there possibly be to oppose them forming a union?
Here are a few reasons why workers don’t want to unionize. None of these relate to employers taking advantage of workers. These are real concerns.

  1. Politics – Unions spend a lot of members’ time and money on politics. They lobby, they donate to campaigns, they endorse candidates, and they mobilize their members to work for politicians at the local, state, and national level. Often unions speak out on issues, get involved in political races, and spend money in areas of the country that have nothing to do with the interests of their members. By engaging in politics, public-sector unions also politicize public employees and their concerns by virtue of association.
  2. Loss of Voice – Exclusive representation means public employees lose their voice and power with their employer. The union speaks for all bargaining unit members, crowding out individual employees’ influence.
  3. Buyer’s Remorse – Once a union is in place it is very difficult to get rid of. The process of decertification, which would remove a union from a bargaining unit, is arduous, and unions will fight aggressively any attempt to de-unionize a workplace. Many state politicians have also made it extremely difficult for public-sector employees to leave their union on an individual basis, even though the Supreme Court said in Janus v. AFSCMEthat they had that right.
  4. Lack of Accountability – Unions often spend money on lobbying and politics without asking their members how they would like their dues to be spent. And when a union spends money to promote an issue or candidate, it is difficult for individual members to get the union to change course. A significant amount of local dues are sent to state and national affiliates, which are even harder for individual union members to hold accountable. It is nearly impossible for public employees to oust union leadership or challenge internal union rules.
  5. Adversarial – American unions, unlike their European counterparts, are extremely adversarial, and this affects the workplace. They often do not behave like professional organizations, but rather like activist organizations. This creates a layer of distrust between public employees and their employers and can affect the trust between employees and the public. Moreover, in some public-sector workforces, supervisors are also unionized, adding another level of complexity and potential area for conflict.
  6. Cost – Members’ dues rarely support their local union and often go to bloated salaries, overhead, and political activism of the state and national level union employees. Unions collect a lot of money, and union dues are not typically progressive, so younger workers who make less money may feel they are carrying more of the load than older, better compensated employees.
  7. Workplace Restrictions – Unions often advocate for extreme positions on issues like pensions, pay, and work rules, and lock employees into one-size-fits-all contracts. The contracts also reduce the professionalism of employees by restricting what they can do and by binding them to specific rules, often making it difficult for them to do their jobs.
  8. Waiver of Legal Rights – Unionized employees are restricted from filing certain lawsuits without going through grievance processes set forth in a collective bargaining agreement. Worse, those who are union members often lose the right to take legal action against their union officials without exhausting the union’s internal dispute process first. These internal processes are often overseen by union officials with a vested interest in protecting their friends and punishing their enemies.
  9. Bad Apples – The union protects and advocates for all employees, even those who have clearly done wrong. This reflects poorly on other employees. In some unionized workplaces, unions have been known to create a culture that penalizes whistleblowing, making it difficult for employees who want an ethical workplace.
  10. Bullying – Unions often cultivate a culture of fear among workers, making them afraid to speak up if they don’t like something the union is doing. If you don’t like something your union is doing, who can you turn to? There is also social pressure within unions to speak with one voice on issues, making it difficult for those who disagree with their colleagues. Union leaders have been known to intimidate or bully public employees who disagree with the union’s position. And the union keeps dissenting members unaware that there may be other like-minded colleagues.
 
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Hentenza

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This is not the case. I represented a small union in contract negotiations earlier this year and signed nothing. The contract had to be signed by the elected union reps--actual workers--and then ratified by vote of the workers.
My experience does not match yours.
 
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bèlla

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What other reason could a business owner have in oppoing unions, other than an intention to take advantage of their employees disadvantaged bargaining position? Unions simplify the bargaining process by negotiating a single contract instead of having to negotiate with every single employee, so what possible reason besides an intent to exploit their employees could there possibly be to oppose them forming a union?

You will never understand because you don’t own a business. You’re thinking like an employee and it’s not the same. Just because you don’t agree with a decision doesn’t mean it‘s ill intentioned. And suggesting it is slanderous. You don’t know what they have in mind or what the Lord may be leading them towards if they’re believers. For someone who doesn’t have people relying on them en masse you have all the answers. And put everyone in the same boat. But you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You need to educate yourself on different approaches beyond the obvious and learn what companies are doing differently. Everyone isn’t a slavedriver.

~bella
 
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CaDan

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My experience does not match yours.
You identified yourself as a contract engineer. Any information you received was second-hand. I, on the other hand, was (and still am) the attorney for a small union and conducted the negotiations.

Of course our experiences do not match.

As an aside, there is something about the engineering profession that makes them tend toward a . . . well . . . "classical" view of economics and property. At least that is my experience over the years.
 
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Hentenza

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You identified yourself as a contract engineer. Any information you received was second-hand. I, on the other hand, was (and still am) the attorney for a small union and conducted the negotiations.

Of course our experiences do not match.

As an aside, there is something about the engineering profession that makes them tend toward a . . . well . . . "classical" view of economics and property. At least that is my experience over the years.
lol Have not changed much through the years have you? But is nice talking with you after all these years even when we are sometimes in different sides of the fence.

ETA: my contract with the company involved efficiency and systems so the information I received was first hand as it happened Because it affected my recommendations.
 
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CaDan

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lol Have not changed much through the years have you?
Older and fatter :D. And with a better understanding of Marxism (which puts me at odds with about 95% of the American "Left").
 
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CaDan

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You will never understand because you don’t own a business.
I'm certainly not asking you to dox yourself, but could you describe generally the type of business you own?
 
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Fervent

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Of course not. You can take that position as long as you accept the consequences. Everything has a price.
Sure, but megacorporations being given tax dollars to build is far more objectionable than tax dollars going to needy individuals, and if you're defending the megacorporations you're on the wrong side of things ethically.
The bible doesn’t absolve us from bad decisions. We must accept responsibility for our mistakes. But if you’ve spent enough time in proverbs you’d choose differently.
Sure, but the Bible isn't exacctly on the side of exploitative wealthy individuals. Might want to give Amos a read on that account.
What kind of nonsense is that? If someone wants to enrich their loved ones its no one‘s business. They don’t owe anyone an explanation or apology. People pass along money all the time. Everyone isn’t a spendthrift or living above their means or riddled with debt. Many live sensibly.

~bella
If your claim is about meritocracy by equating weath with talent, then generational wealth disproves your claim. Unless you think it takes talent to have a rich mom and dad.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Are you okay with America becoming a Communist and or Socialist country? Yes or No? And why?

Firstly, Communism and Socialism aren't the same thing.

Communist? No. Socialist? What kind of socialism? What implementation of socialist policies do you have in mind?

I think the US would benefit greatly with some implementation of some socialist policies which aim to produce just and equitable conditions in which people are given opportunity to thrive.

What I don't like is oligarchy, plutocracy, and authoritarianism.

What I do like is democracy, republican values of citizen participation in government, human liberty, and just conditions for human thriving.

Personally, I reject both Capitalism and Communism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Fervent

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You will never understand because you don’t own a business. You’re thinking like an employee and it’s not the same. Just because you don’t agree with a decision doesn’t mean it‘s ill intentioned. And suggesting it is slanderous. You don’t know what they have in mind or what the Lord may be leading them towards if they’re believers. For someone who doesn’t have people relying on them en masse you have all the answers. And put everyone in the same boat. But you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You need to educate yourself on different approaches beyond the obvious and learn what companies are doing differently. Everyone isn’t a slavedriver.

~bella
So what is objectionable about unions as a business owner, if it isn't that it reduces the inherent disparity in employer-employee power and makes it more likely that that disparity won't be taken advantage of? Do you think your employees owe you something for purchasing their labor? I'm looking at it from both sides, and the reason that business oowners oppose unions is because employees getting fairly compensated for their labor undermines the bottom line because they're less exploitable.
 
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Fervent

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Here are a few reasons why workers don’t want to unionize. None of these relate to employers taking advantage of workers. These are real concerns.

  1. Politics – Unions spend a lot of members’ time and money on politics. They lobby, they donate to campaigns, they endorse candidates, and they mobilize their members to work for politicians at the local, state, and national level. Often unions speak out on issues, get involved in political races, and spend money in areas of the country that have nothing to do with the interests of their members. By engaging in politics, public-sector unions also politicize public employees and their concerns by virtue of association.
And companies don't spend money lobbying politicians? Seems a rather strange objection that unions would *gasp* lobby for labor friendly laws.
  1. Loss of Voice – Exclusive representation means public employees lose their voice and power with their employer. The union speaks for all bargaining unit members, crowding out individual employees’ influence.
THis is nonsense. Unions increase membership voices by reducing the power imbalance inherent in a employer-employee relationship.
  1. Buyer’s Remorse – Once a union is in place it is very difficult to get rid of. The process of decertification, which would remove a union from a bargaining unit, is arduous, and unions will fight aggressively any attempt to de-unionize a workplace. Many state politicians have also made it extremely difficult for public-sector employees to leave their union on an individual basis, even though the Supreme Court said in Janus v. AFSCMEthat they had that right.
Where exactly is this happening?
  1. Lack of Accountability – Unions often spend money on lobbying and politics without asking their members how they would like their dues to be spent. And when a union spends money to promote an issue or candidate, it is difficult for individual members to get the union to change course. A significant amount of local dues are sent to state and national affiliates, which are even harder for individual union members to hold accountable. It is nearly impossible for public employees to oust union leadership or challenge internal union rules.
And the corporations spending money on lobbying against their interests? This is just point 1 repeated, and it's no more serious an objection than it was the first time.
  1. Adversarial – American unions, unlike their European counterparts, are extremely adversarial, and this affects the workplace. They often do not behave like professional organizations, but rather like activist organizations. This creates a layer of distrust between public employees and their employers and can affect the trust between employees and the public. Moreover, in some public-sector workforces, supervisors are also unionized, adding another level of complexity and potential area for conflict.
Adversarial to who? Unions attitudes depend on their membership and the employer's response. If the employer is trying to graft the members, why wouldn't they be adversarial?
  1. Cost – Members’ dues rarely support their local union and often go to bloated salaries, overhead, and political activism of the state and national level union employees. Unions collect a lot of money, and union dues are not typically progressive, so younger workers who make less money may feel they are carrying more of the load than older, better compensated employees.
This is a blanket statement that requires some kind of citation.
  1. Workplace Restrictions – Unions often advocate for extreme positions on issues like pensions, pay, and work rules, and lock employees into one-size-fits-all contracts. The contracts also reduce the professionalism of employees by restricting what they can do and by binding them to specific rules, often making it difficult for them to do their jobs
This is another spurious objection, that "one-size-fits-all" contract is likely to be a better contracct than individuals could secure on their own given the fact that the employer can do without any specific employee, but not their whole workforce.
  1. .
  2. Waiver of Legal Rights – Unionized employees are restricted from filing certain lawsuits without going through grievance processes set forth in a collective bargaining agreement. Worse, those who are union members often lose the right to take legal action against their union officials without exhausting the union’s internal dispute process first. These internal processes are often overseen by union officials with a vested interest in protecting their friends and punishing their enemies.
Against their employer? Yeah, there are arbitration issues. But members can sue their union. And generally the grievance processes are speedier and more beneficial to the union members than they could achieve through the courts due to the expense of legal precedings.
  1. Bad Apples – The union protects and advocates for all employees, even those who have clearly done wrong. This reflects poorly on other employees. In some unionized workplaces, unions have been known to create a culture that penalizes whistleblowing, making it difficult for employees who want an ethical workplace.
This is made up polemics, while the union does advocate for employees primarily there is no blanket advocacy. It just means the company has to go through the right procedures and documentation to get rid of employees rather than being able to dismiss them at will.
  1. Bullying – Unions often cultivate a culture of fear among workers, making them afraid to speak up if they don’t like something the union is doing. If you don’t like something your union is doing, who can you turn to? There is also social pressure within unions to speak with one voice on issues, making it difficult for those who disagree with their colleagues. Union leaders have been known to intimidate or bully public employees who disagree with the union’s position. And the union keeps dissenting members unaware that there may be other like-minded colleagues.
Another scaremongering falsehood.
 
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bèlla

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I'm certainly not asking you to dox yourself, but could you describe generally the type of business you own?

I built a digital business to fund a fashion label with zero loans or debt.

~bella
 
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CaDan

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Here are a few reasons why workers don’t want to unionize. None of these relate to employers taking advantage of workers. These are real concerns.

  1. Politics – Unions spend a lot of members’ time and money on politics. They lobby, they donate to campaigns, they endorse candidates, and they mobilize their members to work for politicians at the local, state, and national level. Often unions speak out on issues, get involved in political races, and spend money in areas of the country that have nothing to do with the interests of their members. By engaging in politics, public-sector unions also politicize public employees and their concerns by virtue of association.
  2. Loss of Voice – Exclusive representation means public employees lose their voice and power with their employer. The union speaks for all bargaining unit members, crowding out individual employees’ influence.
  3. Buyer’s Remorse – Once a union is in place it is very difficult to get rid of. The process of decertification, which would remove a union from a bargaining unit, is arduous, and unions will fight aggressively any attempt to de-unionize a workplace. Many state politicians have also made it extremely difficult for public-sector employees to leave their union on an individual basis, even though the Supreme Court said in Janus v. AFSCMEthat they had that right.
  4. Lack of Accountability – Unions often spend money on lobbying and politics without asking their members how they would like their dues to be spent. And when a union spends money to promote an issue or candidate, it is difficult for individual members to get the union to change course. A significant amount of local dues are sent to state and national affiliates, which are even harder for individual union members to hold accountable. It is nearly impossible for public employees to oust union leadership or challenge internal union rules.
  5. Adversarial – American unions, unlike their European counterparts, are extremely adversarial, and this affects the workplace. They often do not behave like professional organizations, but rather like activist organizations. This creates a layer of distrust between public employees and their employers and can affect the trust between employees and the public. Moreover, in some public-sector workforces, supervisors are also unionized, adding another level of complexity and potential area for conflict.
  6. Cost – Members’ dues rarely support their local union and often go to bloated salaries, overhead, and political activism of the state and national level union employees. Unions collect a lot of money, and union dues are not typically progressive, so younger workers who make less money may feel they are carrying more of the load than older, better compensated employees.
  7. Workplace Restrictions – Unions often advocate for extreme positions on issues like pensions, pay, and work rules, and lock employees into one-size-fits-all contracts. The contracts also reduce the professionalism of employees by restricting what they can do and by binding them to specific rules, often making it difficult for them to do their jobs.
  8. Waiver of Legal Rights – Unionized employees are restricted from filing certain lawsuits without going through grievance processes set forth in a collective bargaining agreement. Worse, those who are union members often lose the right to take legal action against their union officials without exhausting the union’s internal dispute process first. These internal processes are often overseen by union officials with a vested interest in protecting their friends and punishing their enemies.
  9. Bad Apples – The union protects and advocates for all employees, even those who have clearly done wrong. This reflects poorly on other employees. In some unionized workplaces, unions have been known to create a culture that penalizes whistleblowing, making it difficult for employees who want an ethical workplace.
  10. Bullying – Unions often cultivate a culture of fear among workers, making them afraid to speak up if they don’t like something the union is doing. If you don’t like something your union is doing, who can you turn to? There is also social pressure within unions to speak with one voice on issues, making it difficult for those who disagree with their colleagues. Union leaders have been known to intimidate or bully public employees who disagree with the union’s position. And the union keeps dissenting members unaware that there may be other like-minded colleagues.
I missed this in our other cross talk.

To be fair, there are a lot of valid points here. The small union I represent split off from a bigger AFSCME local because of several of them. They are now lean and have tight solidarity. Their costs are to hire me hourly when it's contract renewal time or when they have a grievance (rarely).

AFSCME, OTOH, is fat and bloated. They show up at negotiating sessions with like six staffers and various hangers on. We show up with me and the local president and the treasurer.

Anyway, it works out that the 10 points above are things that workers should consider in weighing the benefits of unionizing. And workers should be careful about WHICH union they join and think about WHY they are joining a union. Too many grad students are joining the Teamsters because it's the cool thing to do, not because they want to be Teamsters for life.
 
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BCP1928

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Here are a few reasons why workers don’t want to unionize. None of these relate to employers taking advantage of workers. These are real concerns.

  1. Politics – Unions spend a lot of members’ time and money on politics. They lobby, they donate to campaigns, they endorse candidates, and they mobilize their members to work for politicians at the local, state, and national level. Often unions speak out on issues, get involved in political races, and spend money in areas of the country that have nothing to do with the interests of their members. By engaging in politics, public-sector unions also politicize public employees and their concerns by virtue of association.
  2. Loss of Voice – Exclusive representation means public employees lose their voice and power with their employer. The union speaks for all bargaining unit members, crowding out individual employees’ influence.
  3. Buyer’s Remorse – Once a union is in place it is very difficult to get rid of. The process of decertification, which would remove a union from a bargaining unit, is arduous, and unions will fight aggressively any attempt to de-unionize a workplace. Many state politicians have also made it extremely difficult for public-sector employees to leave their union on an individual basis, even though the Supreme Court said in Janus v. AFSCMEthat they had that right.
  4. Lack of Accountability – Unions often spend money on lobbying and politics without asking their members how they would like their dues to be spent. And when a union spends money to promote an issue or candidate, it is difficult for individual members to get the union to change course. A significant amount of local dues are sent to state and national affiliates, which are even harder for individual union members to hold accountable. It is nearly impossible for public employees to oust union leadership or challenge internal union rules.
  5. Adversarial – American unions, unlike their European counterparts, are extremely adversarial, and this affects the workplace. They often do not behave like professional organizations, but rather like activist organizations. This creates a layer of distrust between public employees and their employers and can affect the trust between employees and the public. Moreover, in some public-sector workforces, supervisors are also unionized, adding another level of complexity and potential area for conflict.
  6. Cost – Members’ dues rarely support their local union and often go to bloated salaries, overhead, and political activism of the state and national level union employees. Unions collect a lot of money, and union dues are not typically progressive, so younger workers who make less money may feel they are carrying more of the load than older, better compensated employees.
  7. Workplace Restrictions – Unions often advocate for extreme positions on issues like pensions, pay, and work rules, and lock employees into one-size-fits-all contracts. The contracts also reduce the professionalism of employees by restricting what they can do and by binding them to specific rules, often making it difficult for them to do their jobs.
  8. Waiver of Legal Rights – Unionized employees are restricted from filing certain lawsuits without going through grievance processes set forth in a collective bargaining agreement. Worse, those who are union members often lose the right to take legal action against their union officials without exhausting the union’s internal dispute process first. These internal processes are often overseen by union officials with a vested interest in protecting their friends and punishing their enemies.
  9. Bad Apples – The union protects and advocates for all employees, even those who have clearly done wrong. This reflects poorly on other employees. In some unionized workplaces, unions have been known to create a culture that penalizes whistleblowing, making it difficult for employees who want an ethical workplace.
  10. Bullying – Unions often cultivate a culture of fear among workers, making them afraid to speak up if they don’t like something the union is doing. If you don’t like something your union is doing, who can you turn to? There is also social pressure within unions to speak with one voice on issues, making it difficult for those who disagree with their colleagues. Union leaders have been known to intimidate or bully public employees who disagree with the union’s position. And the union keeps dissenting members unaware that there may be other like-minded colleagues.
Wow! I never belonged to a union that good.
 
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CaDan

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I built a digital business to fund a fashion label with zero loans or debt.

~bella
Stripping away the marketing talk, you sell clothes online.

May I ask if you manufacture the product yourself?
 
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