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Communism- Socialism

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Fervent

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You dont but they way some whine about how terrible the US is should go give it a try.
Desiring a more equitable division of resources is not whining about how terrible things are. But the callousness that exists when we're sending celebrities to the moon while thousands sleep on the streets is at least as objectionable as those that existed in Israel when God sent prophets to denounce them for their cruelty towards the poor.
 
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Hentenza

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Desiring a more equitable division of resources is not whining about how terrible things are. But the callousness that exists when we're sending celebrities to the moon while thousands sleep on the streets is at least as objectionable as those that existed in Israel when God sent prophets to denounce them for their cruelty towards the poor.
Then why do so many migrants want to come to the US? I think your perception of the US is clouded by the far left ideology.
 
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bèlla

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That's basically my point in saying it's a culture thing. And more folks with money are warming to the idea of the wealthy paying more.

Did you read the information beforehand? I looked up the site and it sounds good at first. But the answers don’t line up with the rest. This is the only one you need to focus on. It represents their mindset. Look at the numbers.

~bella

IMG_0762.jpeg
 
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bèlla

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Desiring a more equitable division of resources is not whining about how terrible things are. But the callousness that exists when we're sending celebrities to the moon while thousands sleep on the streets is at least as objectionable as those that existed in Israel when God sent prophets to denounce them for their cruelty towards the poor.

Who funded the trip Bezos or NASA?

~bella
 
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Postvieww

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Right. It's called something different in right-wing autocratic economies--"socially disciplined commodification of labor" or something like that. But an autocratic economy is an autocratic economy, whether it is of the left or of the right there is little difference.
There is no one politician in absolute control of the economy. If you differ I challenge you to explain how that works and who that is. Maybe the idiot over the fed?????
 
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Fervent

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Then why do so many migrants want to come to the US? I think your perception of the US is clouded by the far left ideology.
You seem to be mistaking the exhorbinant amount of wealth that exists in the US for some modicum of equity, as if the fact that there are poor countries excuses the extreme disparity between your average worker and the political class. There's nothing far left about my ideology, I'm just not blinded to the gross immorality that is inherent in the current economic system. That you would appeal to people happily accepting mistreatment and exploitation because their countries are in an even sorrier state doesn't excuse the immorality of a nation that allows 1% of its populace to have enough wealth to solve just about every major social ill and choose to do nothing about those social ills.
 
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Fervent

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Who funded the trip Bezos or NASA?

~bella
Does it matter? How did Bezos acquire enough money to fund the trip? By exploiting government tax credits, exploiting small businesses through unfair business practices, etc....does it make a difference that it was supposedly private funds? There's no reason anyone should have that much wealth while thousands sleep on the streets.
 
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Hentenza

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You seem to be mistaking the exhorbinant amount of wealth that exists in the US for some modicum of equity, as if the fact that there are poor countries excuses the extreme disparity between your average worker and the political class. There's nothing far left about my ideology, I'm just not blinded to the gross immorality that is inherent in the current economic system. That you would appeal to people happily accepting mistreatment and exploitation because their countries are in an even sorrier state doesn't excuse the immorality of a nation that allows 1% of its populace to have enough wealth to solve just about every major social ill and choose to do nothing about those social ills.
I did not mentioned wealth in my post so I’m not sure what you are responding to. It sounds like a recitation. You are welcomed to feel this way but I don’t share your gloom. There is plenty of opportunity in this country for those who embrace it.
 
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Fervent

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I did not mentioned wealth in my post so I’m not sure what you are responding to. It sounds like a recitation. You are welcomed to feel this way but I don’t share your gloom. There is plenty of opportunity in this country for those who embrace it.
You replied to my statement about equitable distribution of resources, i.e. wealth. And my statements aren't about feelings, they're about economic realities. There may be opportunities, but there is a massive disparity between wage earners and the political/executive class that is ever increasing. The middle class is quickly disappearing while we see the fortunes of those at the top explode. While it's not exactly a zero sum game, there is a direct relationship between the shrinking middle class and mega-billionaires as regulatory structures have been steadily eroded for the past 45 years and the guardrails that used to protect the masses have been stripped away. So while there are still opportunities, they are fast disappearing and we're steadily headed towards a situation where there are rich and poor with none in between.
 
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Hentenza

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You replied to my statement about equitable distribution of resources, i.e. wealth. And my statements aren't about feelings, they're about economic realities. There may be opportunities, but there is a massive disparity between wage earners and the political/executive class that is ever increasing. The middle class is quickly disappearing while we see the fortunes of those at the top explode. While it's not exactly a zero sum game, there is a direct relationship between the shrinking middle class and mega-billionaires as regulatory structures have been steadily eroded for the past 45 years and the guardrails that used to protect the masses have been stripped away. So while there are still opportunities, they are fast disappearing and we're steadily headed towards a situation where there are rich and poor with none in between.

Distribution of U.S. Household Wealth​

Below, we show how the share of household wealth breaks down by wealth bracket:

Share of Household Wealth2023 (%)2020 (%)2010 (%)2000 (%)1990 (%)
Top 0.1%141311109
99-99.9%1718181714
90-99%3638403637
50-90%3129313436
Bottom 50%32<134


Figures are as of Q4 for each year aside form 2023 where Q3 data was used based on the most recently available data.

With $20 trillion in wealth, the top 0.1% earn on average $3.3 million in income each year.

The greatest share of their wealth is held in corporate equities and mutual funds, which make up over one-third of their assets. Since 1990, their total share of wealth has grown from from 9% to 14% in 2023—the biggest jump across all wealth brackets.

In fact, the richest 0.1% and 1% were the only two rungs to see their share increase since 1990.

Meanwhile, the greatest decline was seen across the 50-90% bracket—households in the lower-middle and middle classes. Those in this rung have a minimum $165,000 in wealth with the majority of assets in real estate, followed by pension and retirement benefits.

Averaging $51,000 in wealth, the bottom 50% make up the lowest share, accounting for 3% of the wealth distribution in America. Income growth across this bracket has increased by over 10%between 2020 and 2022, higher than all other brackets aside from the top 1%.


The numbers support your view but I still don’t believe that it is as gloomy as you paint it. Those with money will naturally make more money than those without, generally. The number of billionaires are increasing globally not just here. But the issue is not as simple given the vast array of circumstances in our society.

BTW- Migrants still want to come to this country in droves. What we have is enough for them.
 
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bèlla

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Does it matter? How did Bezos acquire enough money to fund the trip? By exploiting government tax credits, exploiting small businesses through unfair business practices, etc....does it make a difference that it was supposedly private funds?

Of course it does. If Bezos wants to fund a fake trip for his fiancee and other women he’s welcome to do so. It’s his money. He benefited most from timing and seeing the future for shopping online well before others did. They were fighting the shift. I was shopping with them when they were price matching and had glitches they’d honor. They were ahead of their time and it paid off well.

There's no reason anyone should have that much wealth while thousands sleep on the streets.

Are you going to seize his assets and redistribute them? Not that you could but I’m curious nonetheless.

~bella
 
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Fervent

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Distribution of U.S. Household Wealth​

Below, we show how the share of household wealth breaks down by wealth bracket:

Share of Household Wealth2023 (%)2020 (%)2010 (%)2000 (%)1990 (%)
Top 0.1%141311109
99-99.9%1718181714
90-99%3638403637
50-90%3129313436
Bottom 50%32<134


Figures are as of Q4 for each year aside form 2023 where Q3 data was used based on the most recently available data.

With $20 trillion in wealth, the top 0.1% earn on average $3.3 million in income each year.

The greatest share of their wealth is held in corporate equities and mutual funds, which make up over one-third of their assets. Since 1990, their total share of wealth has grown from from 9% to 14% in 2023—the biggest jump across all wealth brackets.

In fact, the richest 0.1% and 1% were the only two rungs to see their share increase since 1990.

Meanwhile, the greatest decline was seen across the 50-90% bracket—households in the lower-middle and middle classes. Those in this rung have a minimum $165,000 in wealth with the majority of assets in real estate, followed by pension and retirement benefits.

Averaging $51,000 in wealth, the bottom 50% make up the lowest share, accounting for 3% of the wealth distribution in America. Income growth across this bracket has increased by over 10%between 2020 and 2022, higher than all other brackets aside from the top 1%.


The numbers support your view but I still don’t believe that it is as gloomy as you paint it. Those with money will naturally make more money than those without, generally. The number of billionaires are increasing globally not just here. But the issue is not as simple given the vast array of circumstances in our society.
Recognizing trends isn't about being gloomy, and there's no reason for those with money to "naturaly" make more than those without, it's come because regulatory structures have been removed, wages have been suppressed through unfair business practices despite increases in productivity, and the wealthy benefit from inflation while it serves as a hidden tax on the middle class and poor. If the ship isn't made right by restoring the ability for the middle class to engage fairly in the market its only a matter of time before we see the middle class(which was an anomaly of the 20th century) disappears and we basically return to the feudal system.
 
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Fervent

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Of course it does. If Bezos wants to fund a fake trip for his fiancee and other women he’s welcome to do so. It’s his money. He benefited most from timing and seeing the future for shopping online well before others did. They were fighting the shift. I was shopping with them when they were price matching and had glitches they’d honor. They were ahead of their time and it paid off well.
You must not be familiar with much of the backend. Bezos undercut smal businesses that sold on his platform until they were forced to sell to him, forced them to eat the losses while Amazon took the profits, and took advantage of multiple tax credit opportunities where cities paid them to build warehouses using public funds.
Are you going to seize his assets and redistribute them? Not that you could but I’m curious nonetheless.

~bella
If I had that power, I'd certainly be open to it. I do believe there should be an upper limit(as a percentage of the median) for personal wealth.
 
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BCP1928

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Of course it does. If Bezos wants to fund a fake trip for his fiancee and other women he’s welcome to do so. It’s his money. He benefited most from timing and seeing the future for shopping online well before others did. They were fighting the shift. I was shopping with them when they were price matching and had glitches they’d honor. They were ahead of their time and it paid off well.



Are you going to seize his assets and redistribute them? Not that you could but I’m curious nonetheless.

~bella
Why? This is not about rich individuals. People can get rich in capitalist systems, hooray! (hopefully not by predatory practices) This is about formerly free markets being dominated by powerful corporate entities.
 
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RDKirk

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Recognizing trends isn't about being gloomy, and there's no reason for those with money to "naturaly" make more than those without, it's come because regulatory structures have been removed, wages have been suppressed through unfair business practices despite increases in productivity, and the wealthy benefit from inflation while it serves as a hidden tax on the middle class and poor. If the ship isn't made right by restoring the ability for the middle class to engage fairly in the market its only a matter of time before we see the middle class(which was an anomaly of the 20th century) disappears and we basically return to the feudal system.

There are specific things that happened in the 1980s that made the current runaway aggregation of wealth possible.

A wave of financial deregulation began in the 1980s and peaked with the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 (which, interestingly, was opposed by a single Congressman out of both houses: Sanders). Finance became a disproportionately profitable sector, with outsized compensation for top financiers.

Starting with the crushing of the air traffic controllers strike personally by President Reagan in 1981, union power began to collapse—encouraged by political hostility and corporate anti-union campaigns.

The 1980s saw a rise in leveraged buyouts (LBOs) and later, the growth of private equity (PE) firms. This may be the biggest threat of all to free enterprise, equal in effect to corporate trusts and monopolies.

The SEC's Rule 10b-18 in 1982 effectively legalized and encouraged stock buybacks.

Executive pay shifted from salary to stock options and equity grants, especially from the mid-1980s onward.

We could roll back just those specific things and enormously rectify the situation.
 
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Hentenza

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Recognizing trends isn't about being gloomy, and there's no reason for those with money to "naturaly" make more than those without, it's come because regulatory structures have been removed, wages have been suppressed through unfair business practices despite increases in productivity,
You are going to have to post some evidence to support your conclusions. I’m not sure what you mean by the removal of regulatory structures, and wages suppressed by unfair business practices.
and the wealthy benefit from inflation while it serves as a hidden tax on the middle class and poor.
What tax?
If the ship isn't made right by restoring the ability for the middle class to engage fairly in the market its only a matter of time before we see the middle class(which was an anomaly of the 20th century) disappears and we basically return to the feudal system.
How would you propose we do this?
 
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Fervent

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You are going to have to post some evidence to support your conclusions. I’m not sure what you mean by the removal of regulatory structures, and wages suppressed by unfair business practices.
@RDKirk explains a lot of the regulatory issues that have been eroded since the 80s in the post above yours.
What tax?
Inflation acts as a tax on the poor and middle class, by reducing their purchasing power as the real value of money decreases. The corporate class benefits especially as wages have been suppressed while inflation has been exacerbated.
How would you propose we do this?
Socially minded regulations that address the disparities in information and market impact, especially focusing on restoring the power of labor unions and other worker protections that have been eroded as market economies have become fetishized to the point that we're facing a new gilded age.
 
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BCP1928

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There are specific things that happened in the 1980s that made the current runaway aggregation of wealth possible.

A wave of financial deregulation began in the 1980s and peaked with the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 (which, interestingly, was opposed by a single Congressman out of both houses: Sanders). Finance became a disproportionately profitable sector, with outsized compensation for top financiers.

Starting with the crushing of the air traffic controllers strike personally by President Reagan in 1981, union power began to collapse—encouraged by political hostility and corporate anti-union campaigns.

The 1980s saw a rise in leveraged buyouts (LBOs) and later, the growth of private equity (PE) firms. This may be the biggest threat of all to free enterprise, equal in effect to corporate trusts and monopolies.

The SEC's Rule 10b-18 in 1982 effectively legalized and encouraged stock buybacks.

Executive pay shifted from salary to stock options and equity grants, especially from the mid-1980s onward.

We could roll back just those specific things and enormously rectify the situation.
Apparently people really think doing all that would be Socialism.
 
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Yarddog

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Are you okay with America becoming a Communist and or Socialist country? Yes or No? And why?
Communist -No.
Socialist - No, but we've always had a blend of Socialism and Capitalism.
 
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