The rise of Democratic Socialism

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T08:46:08-0500

bèlla said:
The point is this isn’t Europe. Looking at another country and comparing your experience to theirs is unrealistic. If Americans wanted the same we’ve had years to pursue it. But it wasn’t a concern and they were satisfied with their quality of life in spite of the points you‘ve raised.

~bella

That was then, when we really were something like a free market economy. This is now.

bèlla · 2025-06-30T08:48:20-0500

BCP1928 said:
I make an argument for free market capitalism and you respond with a rant like that? You really are afraid of it. Good.

What is there to rant about? I have no interest in socialism and wouldn’t use the services anyway. Nor do I need them. And what is there to be afraid of? That’s only an issue if you don’t have options or discretionary income. Stop projecting your problems.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T08:52:30-0500

bèlla said:
What is there to rant about? I have no interest in socialism and wouldn’t use the services anyway. Nor do I need them. And what is there to be afraid of? That’s only an issue if you don’t have options or discretionary income. Stop projecting your problems.

~bella

So if you have no problems with neoliberalism it must be OK? Good for you. I reject both socialism and your beloved neoliberalism because I would have more options and discretionary income in a free market economy.

bèlla · 2025-06-30T09:18:43-0500

BCP1928 said:
So if you have no problems with neoliberalism it must be OK? Good for you. I reject both socialism and your beloved neoliberalism because I would have more options and discretionary income in a free market economy.

I’m not a neoliberal and it’s not my fault you can’t compete. Maybe you aren’t doing enough or your work isn‘t worthy of better compensation. Maybe you lack the skills to build something society wants and they’re willing to pay for. People with the capacity for success will find a way. You are the reason for your condition.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T10:47:38-0500

bèlla said:
I’m not a neoliberal

Maybe not, but you just painted free market capitalism as a refuge for the lazy and incompetent. You're definitely off the rails somewhere.

bèlla said:
and it’s not my fault you can’t compete. Maybe you aren’t doing enough or your work isn‘t worthy of better compensation. Maybe you lack the skills to build something society wants and they’re willing to pay for. People with the capacity for success will find a way. You are the reason for your condition.

~bella

rjs330 · 2025-06-30T14:25:12-0500

BCP1928 said:
No, I think that a free market solution ought to be tried first. though it might be easier to change the Consitution than to get Conservatives interested in free markets again.

I think you are wrong about that. We haven't really had a free market system in a very long time. Neither party has shown any interest in moving that way. It's the left politically that primarily doesn't believe in them as they want the government through taxes to supply things that should be handled by the free market.

I honestly don't think there are many people who really understand what a free market is.

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T14:34:12-0500

rjs330 said:
I think you are wrong about that. We haven't really had a free market system in a very long time. Neither party has shown any interest in moving that way. It's the left politically that primarily doesn't believe in them as they want the government through taxes to supply things that should be handled by the free market.

Neither party wants free market capitalism, they are both far gone into neoliberalism. It's ironic that the people who come closest to promoting free market capitalism are the Berniecrats.

rjs330 said:
I honestly don't think there are many people who really understand what a free market is.

BCP1928 said:
Free markets were defined in The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, who is considered to be the father of modern economics. His book was published (coincidentally) in 1776 and sets forth three conditions for a free market, which off the top of my head can be summarized as follows;

1. Free access to the market.
2. Free circulation of information about prices and quality
3. Particpants, buyers and sellers, are of comperable market power.

Of course, that is an ideal rarely achieved but the best examples of a classical free markets in operation today are probably the commodities exchanges, which are in fact heavily regulated--to achieve those conditions as closely as possible. The notion that a market is "free" to the extent that it is not regulated by the government comes straight from Milton Friedman and hls Chicago School of Fascist Apologetics.

rjs330 · 2025-06-30T14:41:45-0500

BCP1928 said:
It's ironic that the people who come closest to promoting free market capitalism are the Berniecrats.

Id like to know why you think that. What do they believe in that is so free market? How is socialism free market?

bèlla · 2025-06-30T14:55:26-0500

BCP1928 said:
Maybe not, but you just painted free market capitalism as a refuge for the lazy and incompetent. You're definitely off the rails somewhere.

Do you know how to share an opinion without applying it to the person you’re speaking to? I would be happy to recommend resources to improve your communication and deportment.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T15:01:06-0500

rjs330 said:
Id like to know why you think that. What do they believe in that is so free market? How is socialism free market?

They believe in free market capitalism except where some goods and services are delivered by the government or by private utilities, but where government remains effectively democratic. Neoliberalism advocates closed markets dominated by large corporate entities which exercise social discipline through their domination of autocratic government and no or very few goods and services are delivered by the government or public utilities. It's really about more than social safety nets or the culture war.

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T15:03:45-0500

bèlla said:
Do you know how to share an opinion without applying it to the person you’re speaking to? I would be happy to recommend resources to improve your communication and deportment.

~bella

I would rather know why you think free market capitalism is a refuge for the lazy and incompetent, even if I am not one of them.

CaDan · 2025-06-30T15:05:38-0500

BCP1928 said:
They believe in free market capitalism except where some goods and services are delivered by the government or by private utilities, but where government remains effectively democratic. Neoliberalism advocates closed markets dominated by large corporate entities which exercise social discipline through their domination of autocratic government and no or very few goods and services are delivered by the government or public utilities. It's really about more than social safety nets or the culture war.

I think you need to add that the provision of public goods (roughly defined) should be through private entities paid by the state in sufficient amounts to prevent too much unrest in the populace.

bèlla · 2025-06-30T15:47:33-0500

BCP1928 said:
I would rather know why you think free market capitalism is a refuge for the lazy and incompetent, even if I am not one of them.

Those are your words not mine.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T16:03:03-0500

bèlla said:
Those are your words not mine.

~bella

Here are my words, emphasis added.

BCP1928 said:
So if you have no problems with neoliberalism it must be OK? Good for you. I reject both socialism and your beloved neoliberalism because I would have more options and discretionary income in a free market economy.

Here is your reply

bèlla said:
I’m not a neoliberal and it’s not my fault you can’t compete. Maybe you aren’t doing enough or your work isn‘t worthy of better compensation. Maybe you lack the skills to build something society wants and they’re willing to pay for. People with the capacity for success will find a way. You are the reason for your condition.

~bella

How am I to take that, but that you think that the reason I want a free market economy is because I "can't compete?" BTW, my condition is just fine, thank you.

SimplyMe · 2025-06-30T16:15:58-0500

rjs330 said:
I think you are wrong about that. We haven't really had a free market system in a very long time. Neither party has shown any interest in moving that way. It's the left politically that primarily doesn't believe in them as they want the government through taxes to supply things that should be handled by the free market.

I honestly don't think there are many people who really understand what a free market is.

Because it was found that laissez-faire capitalism does not work, and forgive me if that isn't what you mean by "free market capitalism." When we've come closest to it, it has led to individuals controlling the market and actually preventing free markets. It has led to child labor, unsafe working conditions, and subsistence level wages (which is why we had to have child labor, parents could not earn enough for families in the factories).

So, yes, in response we've allowed provided protections, so that no one person/company (or group of companies colluding together) can control the market of a particular good or resource. It let to child labor laws, to protections for labor unions (since there were "wars" when companies attempted to use violence to quell worker strikes), etc.

And let's quit using "Neo-liberalism" as some type of boogeyman; if there was a single, strong definition I likely wouldn't care. The issue is, it is being used so liberally that the term is meaningless on this forum. This is particularly true when you use the term to refer to Ronald Reagan, George W Bush, and even Democrats -- each being different politically.

bèlla · 2025-06-30T16:30:51-0500

BCP1928 said:
How am I to take that, but that you think that the reason I want a free market economy is because I "can't compete?" BTW, my condition is just fine, thank you.

You admitted you’d have better options and discretionary income in a different market. There’s many succeeding in the current one without complaint including yours truly. We don’t need a free market economy and if we had one the same would hold true. Because we’ve learned how to thrive in all conditions including covid. There’s few situations where I don’t see an opportunity to make money. Which is the result of prowess. And if you have it you’ll do well no matter what.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T16:32:00-0500

SimplyMe said:
Because it was found that laissez-faire capitalism does not work, and forgive me if that isn't what you mean by "free market capitalism." When we've come closest to it, it has led to individuals controlling the market and actually preventing free markets. It has led to child labor, unsafe working conditions, and subsistence level wages (which is why we had to have child labor, parents could not earn enough for families in the factories).

Right. Laissez-fair is not the same as free markets. Free markets require regulatory oversight to make sure that the conditions required for a free market continue to exist.

SimplyMe said:
So, yes, in response we've allowed provided protections, so that no one person/company (or group of companies colluding together) can control the market of a particular good or resource. It let to child labor laws, to protections for labor unions (since there were "wars" when companies attempted to use violence to quell worker strikes), etc.

And let's quit using "Neo-liberalism" as some type of boogeyman; if there was a single, strong definition I likely wouldn't care. The issue is, it is being used so liberally that the term is meaningless on this forum. This is particularly true when you use the term to refer to Ronald Reagan, George W Bush, and even Democrats -- each being different politically.

There certainly isn't a single strong definition--or a short one. In general neoliberalism calls for markets and trade dominated by a relatively few large corporate entities with strong social disciple of the workforce. The varients tend to be about how that discipline is to be achieved, with or without safety nets, who will win the culture war, how autocratic the government has to be. etc. But both parties are into it (think NAFTA) because that's what bankrolls them. Do we need a new word? Bernie just calls it "oligarchy" and stressed the difference between that and authentic free markets.

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T16:40:51-0500

bèlla said:
You admitted you’d have better options and discretionary income in a different market. There’s many succeeding in the current one without complaint including yours truly.

Good for you, but the truth is that more people succeed in a free market economy. Controlled economies, left or right, never really work out in the end, even though some people like you do well in them.

bèlla said:
We don’t need a free market economy and if we had one the same would hold true. Because we’ve learned how to thrive in all conditions including covid. There’s few situations where I don’t see an opportunity to make money. Which is the result of prowess. And if you have it you’ll do well no matter what.

~bella

"We don't need a free market economy." I thought that was the Socialst line. They say that because they want a controlled economy. Is that what you want?

bèlla · 2025-06-30T17:20:45-0500

BCP1928 said:
Good for you, but the truth is that more people succeed in a free market economy. Controlled economies, left or right, never really work out in the end, even though some people like you do well in them.

But that isn’t my experience. I come from a family where everyone worked hard to improve their lives and benefit the next. I’ve added to that principle and instructed my daughter on how to do the same. We’re too busy making the system work for us to complain. And we’re not alone in that. Others have followed suit and they’re training their children and people with a similar interests.

BCP1928 said:
"We don't need a free market economy."

We as in people like myself. We’re legacy minded and purpose driven. That’s our priority. The bible gives specific guidelines on financial responsibilities. Which includes your household, grandchildren, and loved ones to some degree. These are the people you’re expected to support continually if required. It isn’t the government’s responsibility to pick up the slack. You’re supposed to be working together but you don’t.

My daughter wants 5 children or more. That’s a wedding + five upbringings + five tuitions and marriages. That doesn’t include my life, work or the things I want to support philanthropically. I’m not giving all my resources to the government. I have responsibilities to attend to and they come first.

~bella

BCP1928 · 2025-06-30T17:27:44-0500

bèlla said:
But that isn’t my experience. I come from a family where everyone worked hard to improve their lives and benefit the next. I’ve added to that principle and instructed my daughter on how to do the same. We’re too busy making the system work for us to complain. And we’re not alone in that. Others have followed suit and they’re training their children and people with a similar interests.

You sound like someone who has embraced the free market and made good in it. Then you say you don't want a free market?

bèlla said:
We as in people like myself. We’re legacy minded and purpose driven. That’s our priority. The bible gives specific guidelines on financial responsibilities. Which includes your household, grandchildren, and loved ones to some degree. These are the people you’re expected to support continually if required. It isn’t the government’s responsibility to pick up the slack. You’re supposed to be working together but you don’t.

You're right. It sounds like you are making Good in a free market economy. Why don't you want a free market??? I don't get it.

bèlla said:
My daughter wants 5 children or more. That’s a wedding + five upbringings + five tuitions and marriages. That doesn’t include my life, work or the things I want to support philanthropically. I’m not giving all my resources to the government. I have responsibilities to attend to and they come first.

~bella

Why should you give all your resources to the government? I agree with you. I want as little of my money as possible filtered through the government. That's why I prefer free markets. Why don't you?

The rise of Democratic Socialism

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