If universalism is true then why did God send His Son to die for our sins?

Hentenza said:

In Catholic teachings those that go to purgatory are those who die in God’s grace and just need additional cleansing. No unbelivers are included.

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The Son of God's arm was too short? Something must be added to his "inadequate" atonement?

I'm thinkin' NOT!

Hentenza said:

We have 10000 plus denominations because we have “high level Christian scholars” that know scripture. lol To me if the teaching is taught throughout scripture evenly then it is true but if it is only “taught” via a few verses that are in tension with others, then is not true. Of course, I don’t pretend to understand God‘s ways and mechanisms that He chose not to reveal In scripture.

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Well when it comes to the entirety of scripture, the OT doesn't say anything about hell, except maybe for Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:24. As for what's attributed to being about hell in the NT, that could actually be Jesus talking about the cataclysmic doom Jerusalem would experience 40 years later. Cast out, weeping and gnashing of teeth, Jerusalem in flames etc. So perhaps scripture says a lot less about damnation in hell than tradition says it does.

Hentenza said:

Judgement of the unbelievers.

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭26‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL C | New American Standard Bible -

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL C

bible.com

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Yes the judgement of those who rejected Jesus is not going to be fun, its going to be painful, but it is unto reconciliation, not eternal.
Notice how it said " the Lord will judge his people" all people are Gods, That is why as Jesus taught us that God is our Father, all humanity.

Maria Billingsley said:

Hyper has different meanings depending on the context. I am using this definition:

An excessive, exaggerated, or uncontrolled degree of something, often to the point of being detrimental or dysfunctional. It suggests a state that goes beyond what is normal, healthy, or desirable.

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Do you think that God saving all his creation is hyper love?

Clare73 said:

He also demonstrates that not all Israel is "Israel."

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These statements are both from Romans but talking about different things.
Rom 11:25 the mystery is that a hardness has come upon one part of Israel until the full totality of the gentiles enter in, And thus all of Israel shall be saved, just as has been written. This is talking about the end of the age.
vs 32 For God shut up everyone on obstinacy so that he might show mercy to everyone.
Rom 9:6 For not all of those who come from Israel are Israel. This is not talking about the end of the age, Paul was talking about the Israel that was there at that time, not future.
What was Paul talking about, I am not sure, but reading both scriptures and the surrounding verses I don't know for sure what he was talking about, I have ideas but like scripture says its a mystery.

Jeff Saunders said:

Do you think that God saving all his creation is hyper love?

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Hyper as defined:
An excessive, exaggerated, or uncontrolled degree of something, often to the point of being detrimental or dysfunctional. It suggests a state that goes beyond what is normal, healthy, or desirable.

So no.

He has Divine Love towards His creation. Perfect.

Hentenza said:

Why should I even follow Jesus and continue sinning at will if at the end it does not matter since I will be saved anyway?

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How can one who has been awakened to the abhorrent state they are in apart from Christ desire it any longer?

Not meaning to defend universalism, but your objection seems to lack a certain recognition.

Hentenza said:

Nothing in Hebrew 10 about reconciliation.

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All of scripture is about Jesus and Jesus is the savior of the world, remember ,God was reconciling the world to himself in Jesus.

Hentenza said:

Nowhere is scripture does it teach that anyone can “believe” in Him after death. No where in scripture does it teach that there is salvation after death.

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Equally true is nowhere in Scripture does it say there is no hope for life in Jesus after death …

Hentenza said:

“And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment

bible.com

Die once get judged. Pretty clear.

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That‘s a pretty cut and dry stance my brother. Care to enlighten me on how, if man is to die once … how is it the Scripture states there is a Second Death? That Is a contradiction in your staunch stance. Doesn’t seem so clear now does it?

Perhaps it’s our view of death that needs to be refined. If the 1st death is temporary, and it is, why do we insist that the Second Death is final? Note the words of Jesus:

”Do not fear anything that you are about to suffer. Look, the Devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you will be tested, and you will suffer for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Whoever has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬-‭11‬ ‭EHV‬‬

This passage is written to believers yes? And those who are “faithful until death” will receive the “crown of life!” This seems to imply those who were not faithful until death do not receive the crown of life and will endure some sort of pain in the LOF; but Jesus does not pronounce this pain to be eternal. And why does Jesus say “hurt by” instead of “killed by?”

I am slowly working my way through the following verses found in Strongs. Very interesting indeed … check it out.

- Greek -
Strongs nt:91
ἀδικέω {ad-ee-keh'-o}

• ἀδικέω from ἄδικος; to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically): hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.

Used 23 times in the Bible

A couple questions:
1). How do you reconcile the apparent contradiction in Scripture stating man dies once but yet Scripture speaks of second death?

2). Have you ever taken the time to truly seek to understand why those of your brothers/sisters in Christ adhere to their position of Universal Reconciliation? I don’t mean taking a look at ”supposed” Universal Reconciliation verses so you can refute them. I mean, have you prayerfully considered, with a hopeful heart, that this might just be true?

3). Why wouldn’t you? You most certainly must have family members, friends and acquaintances that are, according to your interpretation, destined to a place of eternal pain and suffering. As a matter of fact, most of humanity, according to your interpretation, is destined to this fate.

4). Consider your comment about living a sinful life and doing as you please etc… what does this type of statement reveal about the state of your heart? Think about it …

blessings,

Hentenza said:

The scriptures do not give us the answer, however, God is a fair God and all truth will be fully revealed when the believer gets to heaven. At that point we will fully agree with God’s punishment. What the scriptures do not teach is universalism.

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I agree, they don't. But what I was pointing out is your objection in that post is only valid if you haven't truly repented and understood what it means to live in sin. As CH Spurgeon said, "If I hate sin because of fear of punishment, I have not repented of sin, I merely regret that God is just." Understanding sin for what it is provides more than enough reason not to abandon the path of righteousness even if all rewards are equivalent.

Hentenza said:

Which means that you cant build a theology around it. Does it?

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Lol … I don’t.

Hentenza said:

Awwww you think you have an aha moment dont you? The second death relates to the end on times and only to unbelievers. You never addressed the verse that I posted.

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Not so fast Mr. Accuracy … You are not standing on your position of ”to die once” but rather making up your own rules of interpretation. It matters not if in the current life or judgement day. Scripture says man dies once and you can’t account for it except to make up something to deflect away from your unstable position. Once means once. No? Still have an unaccounted for contradiction.

Hentenza said:

“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

bible.com

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Not sure what you mean by this Scripture without any comments about how you are applying this passage? I believe this passage states exactly what it says. Not sure what else to say.

Hentenza said:

These verses do not talk about the lof at all instead those that persevere will not be included in the second death. You have to be accurate.

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Your passage above says the Second Death IS the LOF. How do you arrive at using them as distinct one from the other?

Hentenza said:

Here are the verses. Where does it say hurt instead of killed by?

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See highlighted/underlined below in the same passage I quoted only a different translation. It says “hurt” not “killed.”

Hentenza said:

““And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 2:8-11 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b | New American Standard Bible -

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b

bible.com

I don’t have to and already answered.

Yes. And is still not in scripture. Even the 5th ecumenical council in 553 ad determined that is was anathema.

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Do you stand on the Scriptures and the guiding of the Spirit of Truth or a council? Ah yes. Safety in numbers …

Hentenza said:

Fear mongering arent we. Can you actually quantify what you just said?

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No fear mongering my friend just pointing out the gravity of your position and the implications of your interpretation. Live with it …

Hentenza said:

my heart is for Christ. Never did I believed because of fear of the lof but about what He did for us. My faith is because of my love for God and His Son,

Blessings for you too.

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Ok

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

Lol … I don’t.

Not so fast Mr. Accuracy … You are not standing on your position of ”to die once” but rather making up your own rules of interpretation. It matters not if in the current life or judgement day. Scripture says man dies once and you can’t account for it except to make up something to deflect away from your unstable position. Once means once. No? Still have an unaccounted for contradiction.

Not sure what you mean by this Scripture without any comments about how you are applying this passage? I believe this passage states exactly what it says. Not sure what else to say.

Your passage above says the Second Death IS the LOF. How do you arrive at using them as distinct one from the other?

See highlighted/underlined below in the same passage I quoted only a different translation. It says “hurt” not “killed.”

Do you stand on the Scriptures and the guiding of the Spirit of Truth or a council? Ah yes. Safety in numbers …

No fear mongering my friend just pointing out the gravity of your position and the implications of your interpretation. Live with it …

Ok

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Greek word is adikeo -to hurt, injure, be an offender. no mention of kill at all.