Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands?

JohnClay said:

I believe I'm probably in a simulation and there is a non-obvious intelligent force. I think most of the Bible isn't historical but I think it is special. When I was in a mental ward in 2019 I was reading a Bible upside down in order to curse myself so there was evidence that I was being poisoned. Here is the upside-down Bible I got a day or two later from my wife:

Even though I see that as evidence of God most people would just think that was a coincidence - i.e. God isn't obvious.
I see the Bible as a test of character - some people would unquestioningly obey it all - others would use their own judgment (like myself).

Click to expand...

With that in mind, I will leave you to your self godness.

JohnClay said:

I see the Bible as a test of character

Click to expand...

I came to this conclusion as well several years ago. Not exactly to teach or guide but to test one's character. Even the non-biased LLM (AI in layman) I'm using recently have arrived to the same conclusion.

It was always going to be the Holy Spirit. The only thing Jesus promised to guide us into the Truth and nothing else. People who didn't have it can only hang everything on something they can see and touch.

JohnClay said:

I was wondering what "your self godness" means? I think God is completely separate from myself and I think I can play hide and seek with them.

Click to expand...

You seem to have made yourself your god.

bèlla said:

They don’t discuss things like that as I demonstrated earlier with the family I mentioned. Each person shares their life or may teach a recipe or skill that would be helpful to interested parties. What you’re suggesting usually occurs on christian channels which often results in positive and negative feedback. Most of the anti tradwife furor is because of believers.

~bella

Click to expand...

Part of the problem is with modern society, because the division of labor has changed. Several years ago, when I was working full-time and worked the farm, a feminist colleague asked me if I do any of the housework. At the time I didn’t. She said that was bad and that I should help. I said that my wife doesn’t help with sheering sheep, cleaning barns, feeding animals, cutting hay, pruning, repairing equipment or buildings, and several other farm chores. She did help with harvesting hay. So I didn’t feel too bad about housework. The lady was unhappy. My wife also worked full-time.

Jerry N. said:

Part of the problem is with modern society, because the division of labor has changed. Several years ago, when I was working full-time and worked the farm, a feminist colleague asked me if I do any of the housework. At the time I didn’t. She said that was bad and that I should help. I said that my wife doesn’t help with sheering sheep, cleaning barns, feeding animals, cutting hay, pruning, repairing equipment or buildings, and several other farm chores. She did help with harvesting hay. So I didn’t feel too bad about housework. The lady was unhappy. My wife also worked full-time.

Click to expand...

I read an interesting book on the founders of the feminist movement and it’s not the people the majority assume. The women working behind the scenes and funding it were very wealthy and prominent. I found myself chuckling a time or two at their ability to convince everyday folks to follow their advice given the differences in their circumstances and they rarely questioned their motives. And that still holds true. Like sheep being led to slaughter a movement began that promised one thing at the onset while hiding the cost. Such is the fate of liberated women. In their quest for equality they forgot about home and didn’t consider who’d pick up the slack their liberty wrought.

If they had a morsel of sense they would have remained at home and waited until the roles that would provide the resources to have extra hands were available to them. But that requires forethought and silly women don’t think like that and here we are. I had a similar conversation with my daughter about the future and asked her to paint me a picture of the life she had in mind and listened while she spoke. I asked a few questions when she finished for clarity’s sake and followed with a number. It wasn’t randomly chosen and I calculated it in her presence. I wanted her to understand the price she’d pay to have the life she described.

It’s important to have a goal and equally important to count the cost. You don’t make big decisions on a lark and leave the details to chance. Unlike some, I don’t believe in superwomen. We have 168 hours at our disposal on a weekly basis and when we take away our rest the number shrinks. If we allocate a traditional workweek into that figure with rest in mind half of your time is gone. What sensible person would agree to that?

Housework never took forty hours to complete and going to work didn’t remove it from her plate. Now she has two things to do instead of one plus her husband and children. The gravity of their foolishness astounds me and I don’t feel sorry for them. I studied the wealthy growing up and worked in a field servicing them financially. There was a time when the ladder appealed but a conversation with my boss changed that. She mentioned her boyfriend casually and said he was retired which piqued my interest. He was 40 at the time and I was younger and she told me what he’d done for a living with a twinkle in her eye. We had the same background. She altered the trajectory of my life in one sentence and I was home in a year and never returned.

I was very ambitious as a child and talented too. But I was never taught how to apply it in a manner that would enrich me and allow me to remain home. I should have never gone to work and been an entrepreneur all along. And I figured it out with her assistance and established the principle for my daughter. I believe that home is a woman’s domain and that isn’t going to change. We can do other things as well but they must be in light of the other.

I’ve never coveted a man’s place or wanted to be like him. Adam has his domain and he’s welcome to it. Most women aren‘t in the company of someone who will help them see where their desires lead and where adjustments are needed. They start with good intentions but fail to study men before doing so. You don’t plan your life and worry about the man later on. Because the plan determines the one you’ll get. You’ll waste a lot of time doing it backwards or make the wrong choice.

The woman in your example embodies the problem we see today. They select their companions based on emotion and fail to discuss the realities of daily living with the intended before agreeing. A person with a modicum of self-awareness knows their position on domesticity beforehand. You know if you like to cook, clean, and if you’re neat and organized. No one has to tell you that. With that in mind, it isn’t difficult to imagine how you’d handle a larger space and more people to look after. If you can’t master a bedroom you’ll have difficulty managing a home because you haven’t conquered the easier task.

Knowing that upfront leaves you with three decisions. Learn to become a good home manager. Work in an industry that will provide the resources you require for assistance or marry someone who’s willing to provide it. You don’t ask a man to assist with housework. You remove it from your plate if that’s your desire. Now there’s nothing to argue about. A lot of women don’t see men as they are and view them as extensions of themselves. You’re not going to domesticate him.

I’ve never had a conversation about division of labor. I ask him to paint me a picture from the moment he wakes until he retires for bed. I have to know what he has in mind to determine what I need and if I’m suited for the job. Every man is different and you have to let him talk. That’s how you find your complement. A lot of women are unhappy because they failed to do that.

~bella

Maybe the good wife isn’t receiving something to keep her from doing all that yapping. The husband may not be fulfilling his marriage obligations

Kathleen30 said:

Maybe the good wife isn’t receiving something to keep her from doing all that yapping. The husband may not be fulfilling his marriage obligations

Click to expand...

Her behavior is indicative of a wayward spirit and she has no conception how her ignorance shames him. We didn’t know the depth of her folly until she opened her mouth. A man’s failings don’t make you a foul mouthed fool unless the propensity existed beforehand. She’s a disgrace to her sex and embarrassment to him. And every man who sees it is wondering what the hell were you thinking?

A sensible woman knows she’s on camera and reels herself in. For the sake of herself and the other. Now she’ll be a meme and a lesson to unruly women. There is no excuse for acting a fool on film.

~bella

bèlla said:

I read an interesting book on the founders of the feminist movement and it’s not the people the majority assume. The women working behind the scenes and funding it were very wealthy and prominent. I found myself chuckling a time or two at their ability to convince everyday folks to follow their advice given the differences in their circumstances and they rarely questioned their motives. And that still holds true. Like sheep being led to slaughter a movement began that promised one thing at the onset while hiding the cost. Such is the fate of liberated women. In their quest for equality they forgot about home and didn’t consider who’d pick up the slack their liberty wrought.

If they had a morsel of sense they would have remained at home and waited until the roles that would provide the resources to have extra hands were available to them. But that requires forethought and silly women don’t think like that and here we are. I had a similar conversation with my daughter about the future and asked her to paint me a picture of the life she had in mind and listened while she spoke. I asked a few questions when she finished for clarity’s sake and followed with a number. It wasn’t randomly chosen and I calculated it in her presence. I wanted her to understand the price she’d pay to have the life she described.

It’s important to have a goal and equally important to count the cost. You don’t make big decisions on a lark and leave the details to chance. Unlike some, I don’t believe in superwomen. We have 168 hours at our disposal on a weekly basis and when we take away our rest the number shrinks. If we allocate a traditional workweek into that figure with rest in mind half of your time is gone. What sensible person would agree to that?

Housework never took forty hours to complete and going to work didn’t remove it from her plate. Now she has two things to do instead of one plus her husband and children. The gravity of their foolishness astounds me and I don’t feel sorry for them. I studied the wealthy growing up and worked in a field servicing them financially. There was a time when the ladder appealed but a conversation with my boss changed that. She mentioned her boyfriend casually and said he was retired which piqued my interest. He was 40 at the time and I was younger and she told me what he’d done for a living with a twinkle in her eye. We had the same background. She altered the trajectory of my life in one sentence and I was home in a year and never returned.

I was very ambitious as a child and talented too. But I was never taught how to apply it in a manner that would enrich me and allow me to remain home. I should have never gone to work and been an entrepreneur all along. And I figured it out with her assistance and established the principle for my daughter. I believe that home is a woman’s domain and that isn’t going to change. We can do other things as well but they must be in light of the other.

I’ve never coveted a man’s place or wanted to be like him. Adam has his domain and he’s welcome to it. Most women aren‘t in the company of someone who will help them see where their desires lead and where adjustments are needed. They start with good intentions but fail to study men before doing so. You don’t plan your life and worry about the man later on. Because the plan determines the one you’ll get. You’ll waste a lot of time doing it backwards or make the wrong choice.

The woman in your example embodies the problem we see today. They select their companions based on emotion and fail to discuss the realities of daily living with the intended before agreeing. A person with a modicum of self-awareness knows their position on domesticity beforehand. You know if you like to cook, clean, and if you’re neat and organized. No one has to tell you that. With that in mind, it isn’t difficult to imagine how you’d handle a larger space and more people to look after. If you can’t master a bedroom you’ll have difficulty managing a home because you haven’t conquered the easier task.

Knowing that upfront leaves you with three decisions. Learn to become a good home manager. Work in an industry that will provide the resources you require for assistance or marry someone who’s willing to provide it. You don’t ask a man to assist with housework. You remove it from your plate if that’s your desire. Now there’s nothing to argue about. A lot of women don’t see men as they are and view them as extensions of themselves. You’re not going to domesticate him.

I’ve never had a conversation about division of labor. I ask him to paint me a picture from the moment he wakes until he retires for bed. I have to know what he has in mind to determine what I need and if I’m suited for the job. Every man is different and you have to let him talk. That’s how you find your complement. A lot of women are unhappy because they failed to do that.

~bella

Click to expand...

The division of labor was very important. We were both very busy, and it avoided many conflicts. I felt sorry for the man in the video with the wife out of control, but they might deserve each other. There is no way to tell. It is best to start a family when you are in your 20s, but most people are not very wise at that age, and it is easy to make bad choices.

bèlla said:

Her behavior is indicative of a wayward spirit and she has no conception how her ignorance shames him. We didn’t know the depth of her folly until she opened her mouth. A man’s failings don’t make you a foul mouthed fool unless the propensity existed beforehand. She’s a disgrace to her sex and embarrassment to him. And every man who sees it is wondering what the hell were you thinking?

A sensible woman knows she’s on camera and reels herself in. For the sake of herself and the other. Now she’ll be a meme and a lesson to unruly women. There is no excuse for acting a fool on film.

~bella

Click to expand...

bèlla said:

Her behavior is indicative of a wayward spirit and she has no conception how her ignorance shames him. We didn’t know the depth of her folly until she opened her mouth. A man’s failings don’t make you a foul mouthed fool unless the propensity existed beforehand. She’s a disgrace to her sex and embarrassment to him. And every man who sees it is wondering what the hell were you thinking?

A sensible woman knows she’s on camera and reels herself in. For the sake of herself and the other. Now she’ll be a meme and a lesson to unruly women. There is no excuse for acting a fool on film.

~bella

Click to expand...

Well agreed there be plenty of Karins out there and plenty of bad men that make them that way. Some people are brought up and others are dragged up I guess. Discern wisely who you get involved with.

JohnClay said:

Ephesians 5:22-25


The following video of a street preacher reminded me of that Bible passage. The comments for that video seem to be overwhelmingly supporting the preacher. (so far I haven't found any negative comments)

I was wondering what Christians think about that passage being used to encourage men to have more power in a marriage...

Click to expand...

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the passage to use it to teach that men are supposed to be "the boss" or act in some authoritarian way in the home.

The thesis of this portion of text is "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ". In most of the older manuscripts the following statement which is translated as "wives, submit to your husbands" actually lacks the verb "submit", so that literally it is "wives, your husbands". This isn't a problem grammatically in the source text, because the verb is effectively being "borrowed" from the previous statement. Essentially it's like this, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ; wives, do this toward your husbands". But it doesn't stop, a few verses later it moves from speaking to wives to husbands, instructing husbands (and this is still in the context of "submit to one another") to love their wives in the way Christ loves His Church, in laying down one's life. Christ came as Servant, "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many"--that is instruction given to husbands. Wives are called to submit to husbands, and husbands are called to submit to their wives--to view themselves not as masters but as servants, serving their wives in the general call to mutual submission.

This isn't about control, this is about loving one another; it's about not viewing oneself as chief but as servant. In marriage both husbands and wives are to see themselves as servants, serving and caring and loving the other. It's not about power dynamics--it's about love. And this whole discussion continues beyond husbands and wives, as it continues in chapter 6 in the discussion of children and parents. Children are called to honor their parents, and parents are called not to provoke their children, but love them. Again, this is a call to mutual submission, to viewing oneself as a servant, with the goal to be love, to be an imitator of Jesus. And then, also, the text speaks of the relationships even between slaves and masters; going so far as to call masters to view themselves as slaves of their slaves; thus actually eroding and functionally abolishing the slave-master relationship altogether.

The text is a subtle subversion of ordinary interpersonal social politics within the ancient world. Wherein Christians are to understand themselves as having a distinct mentality toward each other, as brothers and sisters. There is something radically subversive, but Christians are never called to outright disrupt and destroy the social order; yet the kind of life they are called to have is one that places them at odds with the ordinary social order. This can be found again and again throughout the New Testament. Even as Paul tells Christians to recognize governing authorities as existing because of God's authority; yet Christians do not live in such a way as to confess that Caesar is lord, but rather to live in such a way that Christ is Lord. Thus while the Church does not pick up torches and pitchforks to Caesar's doorstep, yet in quietness and peaceableness, the Church confidently proclaims Christ, not Caesar, as Lord.

The systems of power, the powers and principalities of this fallen world in all their varied forms, are confidently declared to be overcome; yet it is not with the call of revolution that the Church proclaims them fallen--it is in the confidence of the Risen Christ who is seated at the right hand of God, who by His Cross He has defeated the powers. That is true all the way from the cosmic scale, where Christ has even defeated death itself; all the way down to the microcosms of our everyday life--where we exist in all our ordinary social vocations--as friends, neighbors, spouses, parents, children, etc. Because of the Victory of Christ over the cosmic powers of darkness, then our lives are defined not by the power of this fallen age--but by the hope and life of the future age. Thus we do not lord over one another, we do take one another to court, we do not compete with one another except in living honorably and in godly charity toward all. We should not be a people who strive against each other, but cooperate; who do not envy, but rejoice together and share and are endlessly generous with one another.

It is a radical kind of life that the New Testament calls Christians to have, a life defined by Jesus, His Cross, His Empty Tomb, and the hope of the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran