Did the sacrifice on the day of Atonement cover all Israel's or only those who believed that it would?

Hentenza · Jun 24, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Paul is saying be reconciled to the fact, that God is not counting sins against people. Paul is not saying God is counting against the majority of people, but not counting for a few, which is the futile case you're attempting by context. It doesn't compute.

You do realize that Romans and 2 Corinthians were written by Paul, right? Are you saying that Paul contradicts himself?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Uh, that also is not true. Firstly, there are many different forms of Universalism. SOME, you may be surprised to know even hold to eternal forever and ever hell for the devil and his messengers. So "not all" are getting into heaven, are they?

Once you get into teachings that are not biblical folks can go every which way.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Even people who believe in hell hold to a form of universalism because they too believe ALL devils, universally, will be in hell/the LoF.

Not really but yes, all devils go to hell as well as all reprobates. In fact, all that don’t believe are heading that direction also.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Secondly in Roman catholic orthodoxy it is 'heterodox' meaning it's not common but it is allowed to believe ALL people will either be in heaven or in purgatory.

I’m not catholic.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Belief in hell for any people is not therefore mandatory in orthodoxy. It's acceptable to believe otherwise. NOR have any in orthodoxy determined from the Bible, that there is a single named person that will be in hell/the LoF. There are no named examples. Which at a minimum should hold out the possibility of Prevailing over all, Grace of God in Christ.

No one is in hell right now. All that have died are in the grave until the resurrection. At that time the wicked will go to hell.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The Episcopal church has a similar position. Hell for people is not mandatory.

I‘m not an Episcopalian either.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
If you ever rolled up your sleeves and studied it out, you'd come to a logical conclusion, that loving ALL our neighbors is actually Biblically legit.

I’m yet to see anyone love ALL of their neighbors in particular the predators and such. I will preach to them in prison though.

I‘ve been studying the Bible and theology for years and have never been led to theologies that are unbiblical. Maybe you should study the Bible without the unorthodox commentaries.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 24, 2025

Hentenza said:
You do realize that Romans and 2 Corinthians were written by Paul, right? Are you saying that Paul contradicts himself?

Not at all and you haven't eliminated Paul's 2 Cor. 5:19 statement by citing Paul's statement in Romans or any other statement by Paul.

Hentenza said:
Once you get into teachings that are not biblical folks can go every which way.

Last I checked it wasn't against Christianity to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Hentenza said:
I’m not catholic.

Play the orthodox heresy card attempt and get trumped by the facts of what orthodoxy really believes.

Hentenza said:
I’m yet to see anyone love ALL of their neighbors in particular the predators and such. I will preach to them in prison though.

Why do you condemn captives of the devil who are not one bit different of a sinner than you? Romans 3:9

Are you better than other sinners?

Hentenza said:
I‘ve been studying the Bible and theology for years and have never been led to theologies that are unbiblical. Maybe you should study the Bible without the unorthodox commentaries.

See previous orthodox positions and Romans 13:8-10 to polish up on the scriptural facts.

Do you think Jesus loves all our neighbors?

Hoping2 · Jun 24, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Why do you not deal with the word in question? Why is the definition that I have used a lie? How do you not know that it is not those who believe that God is going to do what he said are not the one’s believing a lie?

The only reward the disobedient will receive, is eternity in a lake of fire.
God hates the workers of iniquity.
I knew that when I was still one of them, but my sins sickened me, and I turned from them.
That God given gift of repentance is still available to all the disobedient who are still alive.
Those that died in their sins, are lost forever.

Hoping2 · Jun 24, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Did not Jesus say he came not for the healthy but for sinners?

Yes, He did.
As there were no "healthy" people yet, it just shows He came for all.

Jeff Saunders said:
Or that Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?

Yes again.
Jesus came to deliver us from sin; by the gifts of repentance from sin and baptism into Him, His death, burial, and resurrection.
Those who refuse His blood bought gifts, shall perish in their sins.

Jeff Saunders said:
Why would God create something that you say he hates, that sounds more like the gods of old not the God of creation.

God created Adam and Eve.
We are creations of our parents...not God...until one turns from sin and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and is born again...this time "of God".

Jeff Saunders · Jun 24, 2025

Hentenza said:
God is indeed reconciling the world to Himself, however, only those that justified by the grace of God will be saved. A clearer teaching of reconciliation is in Romans 5. Here are verses 1 -11.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous person; though perhaps for the good person someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:1-11 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we | New American Standard Bible - NAS

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we

bible.com

If we are not justified by the grace of God then we are not reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

“If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and impious men, let him be anathema.” Page 465 section IX.

https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0553-0553,_Concilium_Constantinopolitanum_II,_Documenta_Omnia_%5BSchaff%5D,_EN.pdf

Please read what was actually said. Many other topic were discussed and one of them was universal restoration.

Yes, you continue to take the verses out of context. Worse yet, you ignore the verses that do not support your philosophy. For example, using 2 Cor. 5 but ignoring Romans 5. Paul has never taught universalism.

Rom 5:10 For while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son.
When was humanity reconciled according to this verse ? While we were enemies, not reconciled after we believed that is the key.
What justifies us " by his blood" his death brought our , all of humanity, justification.
Tradition blinds the church to the truth that God will complete the work he set out to do, He will reconcile the world, God will not fail, mans will does not trump Gods will.
Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven by Jesus. Not some things or a few things not christians but all things, it doesn't get any clearer than that.
Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL.
1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all died as in Jesus ALL will live.
Rom 5:18 Just as the result of on trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN.
1 tIM 4:9-11 Because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord . Also in Rom 14:11
You are correct that Paul never taught universalism, that is the philosophy that all roads lead to the same place.
Paul taught Christian Universal Redemption that in the ages to come God will reconcile all to himself, its not going to happen in this age but God is not bound by time as we are, in the ages to come he will complete his plan.
These verses from Paul if read plainly to me say God is going to save his whole creation through Jesus, you say that I am taking them out of context, ok what is the context because if you look at the Greek word used for ALL its pas in every verse and it means all the whole, not part or a fraction of.
As far as the council of 533 AD, I don't care what they said it has no authority , it was corrupt and really was a stain on the church, so personally I just don't care.

Jeff Saunders · Jun 24, 2025

Hoping2 said:
Yes, He did.
As there were no "healthy" people yet, it just shows He came for all.

Yes again.
Jesus came to deliver us from sin; by the gifts of repentance from sin and baptism into Him, His death, burial, and resurrection.
Those who refuse His blood bought gifts, shall perish in their sins.

God created Adam and Eve.
We are creations of our parents...not God...until one turns from sin and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and is born again...this time "of God".

How can someone perish in their sins if jesus conquered sin, either he took the sins of the world away or he didn't, if he did then how can you die in something that is not there?
Jer 32:27 God is God of all flesh.
Eph 4:6 God is Father of all.
I think we are Gods creation.

Hoping2 · Jun 24, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
How can someone perish in their sins if jesus conquered sin,

Jesus brought the way to live without sin, and that way is "in Him".
Those not "in Him" have had no atonement for their sins...and will suffer the consequences.

Jeff Saunders said:
either he took the sins of the world away or he didn't, if he did then how can you die in something that is not there?

Those who persist in their disobedience, have rejected the way to eternal life in Christ.
Only "in Christ", can a man's sins be washed away.

Jeff Saunders said:
Jer 32:27 God is God of all flesh.

There are no other gods.

Jeff Saunders said:
Eph 4:6 God is Father of all.

Look at who Paul is talking to.
The children of God, and not the devil's children.

Jeff Saunders said:
I think we are Gods creation.

Only through rebirth, can a man become a child of God.
And rebirth necessitates repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, first.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 25, 2025

Hoping2 said:
The only reward the disobedient will receive, is eternity in a lake of fire.
God hates the workers of iniquity.
I knew that when I was still one of them, but my sins sickened me, and I turned from them.
That God given gift of repentance is still available to all the disobedient who are still alive.
Those that died in their sins, are lost forever.

You know, I understand when believers need to threaten themselves with hell to keep their own demons in check. I get it. IF you remove the threat, would you act different?

I've heard believers say that a lot, that if it weren't for hell, they'd do what they want to do. So I ask, what is it you really would want to do and do you think God doesn't know that already?

Paul was clear about "when" we become sinless in 1 Cor. 15, when we put off corruption, weakness and dishonor and have a new eternal body, NOT a natural body subject to all those things.

That has not happened, yet. But again, people fall into various delusions when they think God won't accept them and will send them to hell if they aren't sinless. These kinds of mindsets are simply illusions, fooling only the holders.

Jesus saves sinners. That's all there is to it.

Jeff Saunders · Jun 25, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You know, I understand when believers need to threaten themselves with hell to keep their own demons in check. I get it. IF you remove the threat, would you act different?

I've heard believers say that a lot, that if it weren't for hell, they'd do what they want to do. So I ask, what is it you really would want to do and do you think God doesn't know that already?

Paul was clear about "when" we become sinless in 1 Cor. 15, when we put off corruption, weakness and dishonor and have a new eternal body, NOT a natural body subject to all those things.

That has not happened, yet. But again, people fall into various delusions when they think God won't accept them and will send them to hell if they aren't sinless. These kinds of mindsets are simply illusions, fooling only the holders.

Jesus saves sinners. That's all there is to it.

If fear of hell is the only reason someone " gets saved" and does whatever box they have placed themselves into, I would question if they know and understand God, when you have an encounter with the living God, Yahweh, you see and taste his love, you will want him and desire to have a relationship with him because of who he is not out of fear of "hell".
Would you serve and worship God if this life was it, nothing of an afterlife at all, we were just gone? If fear of "hell" is why you do the "religious " thing then you have no relationship and miss out on the lovelife God has called us to, the only good part for them is that at least they will have behavior modification so that in the next age there will be less to have to give account for.

Clare73 · Jun 25, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You know, I understand when believers need to threaten themselves with hell to keep their own demons in check. I get it. IF you remove the threat, would you act different?
I've heard believers say that a lot, that if it weren't for hell, they'd do what they want to do. So I ask, what is it you really would want to do and do you think God doesn't know that already?

Paul was clear about "when" we become sinless in 1 Cor. 15, when we put off corruption, weakness and dishonor and have a new eternal body, NOT a natural body subject to all those things.
That has not happened, yet. But again, people fall into various delusions when they think God won't accept them and will send them to hell if they aren't sinless. These kinds of mindsets are simply illusions, fooling only the holders.
Jesus saves sinners. That's all there is to it.

That is not all there is to it. . .Jesus saves repentant sinners.

Hoping2 · Jun 25, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You know, I understand when believers need to threaten themselves with hell to keep their own demons in check. I get it.

If you think you have demons, you need more help than I can supply on line.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
IF you remove the threat, would you act different?

No, as it was my love for God, myself, and those I lived with, that caused me to change my ways.
BTW, it is written that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. (Ps 111:10)
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge:" (Pro 1:7)
"The fear of the Lord prolongeth days: " (10:27)
"In the the fear of the Lord is strong confidence:" (Pro 14:26)
Without the fear of the Lord, is only catastrophe.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I've heard believers say that a lot, that if it weren't for hell, they'd do what they want to do.

Are you an unbeliever ?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
So I ask, what is it you really would want to do and do you think God doesn't know that already?

God knows everything, as He can be in any time period He desires.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Paul was clear about "when" we become sinless in 1 Cor. 15, when we put off corruption, weakness and dishonor and have a new eternal body, NOT a natural body subject to all those things.

That physical corruption has nothing to do with our own sins.
"We" become sinless when we quit committing sin.
That is the result of repentance from sin.
Thanks be to God for all the tools to remain free after repentance !

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That has not happened, yet. But again, people fall into various delusions when they think God won't accept them and will send them to hell if they aren't sinless. These kinds of mindsets are simply illusions, fooling only the holders.

Was Jesus fooled when He said..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)
Was Jesus fooled when He said..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:21-23)
I think it is the fools who ignore such statements from the Son of God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus saves sinners. That's all there is to it.

Jesus saves sinners who cease from sin.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 25, 2025

Clare73 said:
That is not all there is to it. . .Jesus saves repentant sinners.

Romans 11:26-32 shows even enemies of the Gospel are saved from nothing they did or do of themselves

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 25, 2025

Hoping2 said:
If you think you have demons, you need more help than I can supply on line.

All have sin. Sin is of the devil. We've done this drill before. Even though your position doesn't hear it

Hoping2 said:
No, as it was my love for God, myself, and those I lived with, that caused me to change my ways.

No one makes themselves sinless

Hoping2 said:
That physical corruption has nothing to do with our own sins.

Corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that dies because of sin is the state of every person who has lived other than Jesus.

Hoping2 said:
"We" become sinless when we quit committing sin.

No one changes their state until they are made spirits in an eternal body. Per previous citing by Paul in 1 Cor. 15

Hoping2 said:
That is the result of repentance from sin.
Thanks be to God for all the tools to remain free after repentance !

And rinse and repeat. People are not the only agency involved in sin.

Hoping2 said:
Was Jesus fooled when He said..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Oh, you mean sentencing every person who doesn't fit your theology mold to burn alive forever?

Is that what you term measure to others as you would have done unto you?

Hoping2 said:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)
Was Jesus fooled when He said..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:21-23)
I think it is the fools who ignore such statements from the Son of God.

I have no issues with any scripture. It applies to everyone. Your position on the other hand flees from the Words of God and doesn't want to hear them. Jesus can look at anyone and address the tempter in them just as He did with Peter, Mary Magdalene, and countless others in whom He engaged the enemy.

Hoping2 said:
Jesus saves sinners who cease from sin.

Paul was the chief of sinners, after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15, "sinners of whom I AM chief." Not was or used to be.

Hoping2 said:
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

The sheep know that the devil doesn't change his stripes

Do you think Jesus loves all people?

Hentenza · Jun 25, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Not at all and you haven't eliminated Paul's 2 Cor. 5:19 statement by citing Paul's statement in Romans or any other statement by Paul.

Last I checked it wasn't against Christianity to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Play the orthodox heresy card attempt and get trumped by the facts of what orthodoxy really believes.

Why do you condemn captives of the devil who are not one bit different of a sinner than you? Romans 3:9

Are you better than other sinners?

See previous orthodox positions and Romans 13:8-10 to polish up on the scriptural facts.

Do you think Jesus loves all our neighbors?

God and Jesus love everyone but not everyone will be saved. You only use verses that you consider help your case but the fact is that you are fooling yourself. If you have faith you will be save if you do not have faith you will not.

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Peter 3:7-9 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, tha | New American Standard Bible - NAS

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, tha

bible.com

All must repent IF you want all to be saved. But not all will repent. Ooops, there goes universalism.

“This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. For after all it is only right for God to repay | New American Standard Bi

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. For after all it is only right for God to repay

bible.com

There is goes again. Retribution for who? What is their penalty? Who is saved? Those who believe.

“But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their indecent behavior, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Peter 2:1-9 But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bring | New American Standard Bible - NAS

But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bring

bible.com

What happens to the false prophets? Oh look, the Lord knows how to rescue the godly and to keep the unrighteous under punishment. Doesn’t sound like all will be saved or restored since the unrighteous will be kept under punishment.
I dont think the heresy of universalism is destructive although it teaches that no one needs to repent of their sins nor does anyone have to have faith in our Lord and Savior.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 25, 2025

Hentenza said:
God and Jesus love everyone

Yeah, you know we could stop right there and be good

Hentenza said:
but not everyone will be saved

Never said everyone will be saved.
Here is where our positions will, as they say, "cut the mustard." Or not.

People in scripture are not just and only people. All people are under the influences of the devil and his own "internally." We're all tempted in mind. Jesus gave us thousands of examples of devils within people in the Gospels as well as acts of the Apostles, the same.

IF you get this picture, which is epitomized by Mark 4:15 for example, then and there the picture of people changes to an accurate picture of people/devils overlapped, walking in the same pair of shoes.

Your position unfortunately sees only people, and my position would see that as a form of spiritual blindness imposed by our mutual adversary.

Hentenza said:
All must repent IF you want all to be saved. But not all will repent. Ooops, there goes universalism.

There are all kinds of variations on salvation. Giving a cold cup of water will not lose a reward for example.

All kinds of various sects have attached various "formulas" to "prove" salvation. I'd suggest they are all valid, yet failure to perform any of them wouldn't disqualify any person from heaven, because John tells us this:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

I see no basis to condemn a single person based on John's very simple observation above. I'm sure every person has loved in some way, at some time, even if it's only to love their own sorry hides.

Additionally we can see that even enemies of the Gospel are saved, after death no less, in Romans 11:26-32

ALL people will in fact receive Mercy from God in Christ. And most are simply oblivious to their current state.

Every time you cite a "people only" citing, it is the citing of blinded paraphrasing that utterly fails to take into account the captor of all mankind, and his own.

Jesus came to set those captives free. All of them. And He Will Not Fail a single person.

Additionally I have no issues applied to any damnation, wrath and eternal torture scripture as they all, every last jot and tittle of those, apply to the devil and his messengers IN MANKIND.

All have sin. Romans 3:9

Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Your positions are simply blind to the enemy. That's really all there is to it

Hentenza · Jun 25, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Rom 5:10 For while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son.

yep.

Jeff Saunders said:
When was humanity reconciled according to this verse ?

Nope read verse 1.

Jeff Saunders said:
While we were enemies, not reconciled after we believed that is the key.

Nope read verse one.

Jeff Saunders said:
What justifies us " by his blood" his death brought our , all of humanity, justification.

How are the saved justified?

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we | New American Standard Bible - NASB

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we

bible.com

You should take verses in context. I know, I keep pointing that out.

Jeff Saunders said:
Tradition blinds the church to the truth that God will complete the work he set out to do, He will reconcile the world, God will not fail, mans will does not trump Gods will.

My friend, you can’t justify universalism in scripture. It simply is not there. You have listened and drank the kool aid of unorthodoxy. You must reconcile the Bible to itself not to a few verses that “seem” to support your view. Why do you not support your view with verses like:

“in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:2-9 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too | New American Standard Bible - N

in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too

bible.com

Jeff Saunders said:
Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS on earth or in heaven by Jesus. Not some things or a few things not christians but all things, it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Continue reading the chapter.

“And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colossians 1:21-23 And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and | New American Standard Bible

And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and

bible.com

Faith is necessary for salvation.

Jeff Saunders said:
Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL.

And just in the chapter before Paul teaches:
“But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭8‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 10:8-13 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your | New American Standard Bible - NA

But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your

bible.com

Everyone that does not call on the name of the Lord will not be saved. Do you think Paul teaches this in chapter 10 only to change his mind and teach universalism in chapter 11?I think not. Tell me, why don’t you exegess the verses above?

Jeff Saunders said:
1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all died as in Jesus ALL will live.

Once again read the chapter so you get a context. You are once again misreading the word of God through the rose color lenses of universalism.

“Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭2‬, ‭15‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 15:1-17 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I | New American Standard Bib

Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I

bible.com

Read these verses. How are we saved? What happens to our faith if we don’t believe in the resurrection of Christ?

Jeff Saunders said:
Rom 5:18 Just as the result of on trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN.

We cover this verse several posts back.

Jeff Saunders said:
1 tIM 4:9-11 Because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe.

Keep reading.

“Prescribe and teach these things. Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.

bible.com

why is Paul exhorting his followers to act like Christ when preaching the gospel? Why act in faith?

Jeff Saunders said:
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord . Also in Rom 14:11

keep reading.

“So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bibl

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

bible.com

i guess only the believers have to work their salvation in fear and trembling? How about the unbelievers, no trembling or fear since God is going to give it to them anyway? Again read verses in context.

Jeff Saunders said:
You are correct that Paul never taught universalism, that is the philosophy that all roads lead to the same place.
Paul taught Christian Universal Redemption that in the ages to come God will reconcile all to himself, its not going to happen in this age but God is not bound by time as we are, in the ages to come he will complete his plan.

Nope. Nothing in Paul’s writings does it teach ur. Does he teach ur in the following verses?

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:21-25 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b | New American Standard Bible - NA

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b

bible.com

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:21-25 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b | New American Standard Bible - NA

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b

bible.com

Jeff Saunders said:
These verses from Paul if read plainly to me say God is going to save his whole creation through Jesus, you say that I am taking them out of context, ok what is the context because if you look at the Greek word used for ALL its pas in every verse and it means all the whole, not part or a fraction of.

Dont just isolate the verse but read it in full regards of the chapter (sometime even chapters). Interpret them consistent with the message.

Jeff Saunders said:
As far as the council of 533 AD, I don't care what they said it has no authority , it was corrupt and really was a stain on the church, so personally I just don't care.

You asked me to read it and study it a few posts back. I did and now you don’t care because it no longer says what you thought it said?

Hoping2 · Jun 25, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
All have sin.

I disagree, as some have truly repented of sin, and gone on to rebirth from God's own seed.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Sin is of the devil. We've done this drill before. Even though your position doesn't hear it

Please provide one scripture claiming sin is the devil.
Until you can do that, I will keep considering it just man's faulty logic.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
No one makes themselves sinless

Correct, as it is God, through faith in Christ, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, who does the cleansing.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that dies because of sin is the state of every person who has lived other than Jesus.

That is the same state as any animal on earth...who committed no sins.
The bodies frailty is not necessarily associated to one's obedience to God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
No one changes their state until they are made spirits in an eternal body.

I disagree.
Jesus brought the way, as I listed earlier.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Per previous citing by Paul in 1 Cor. 15

The only "state" that changes at the resurrection of the dead, is the vessel's state.
The obedient/faithful will get new vessels !

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And rinse and repeat. People are not the only agency involved in sin.

If that were true, then God's penalty for sin is unfair.
But just as Sodom was destroyed for the sins of the Sodomites, so too will all men be judged for their own deeds.
Justice will prevail.
BTW, if it was "rinse and repeat", it would only show that the repentance from sin was a lie to God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Oh, you mean sentencing every person who doesn't fit your theology mold to burn alive forever?

It is Jesus's words you doubt. (Matt 25:45-46)

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Is that what you term measure to others as you would have done unto you?

I can only forgive those who have sinned against me.
Those who sin against others may not be forgiven by the folks they sinned against.
God will handle their fates justly.
Just as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah, and Edom, and the Canaanites, and Persia, and the Assyrians, etc..
Even Jerusalem eventually suffered God's wrath for their sins...but you expect to escape judgement ?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I have no issues with any scripture. It applies to everyone. Your position on the other hand flees from the Words of God and doesn't want to hear them.

As Jesus said what will happen to the disobedient, (Matt 25:45-46), your point proves false.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus can look at anyone and address the tempter in them just as He did with Peter, Mary Magdalene, and countless others in whom He engaged the enemy.

You are conflating possession with temptation.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Paul was the chief of sinners, after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15, "sinners of whom I AM chief." Not was or used to be.

Paul was the chief sinner of those saved by Christ.
Had he known of some of the sinners to follow afterwards, he would have used other words.
But his word were proper at that time, as he was a persecutor of the early church...something he stopped doing after his conversion.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The sheep know that the devil doesn't change his stripes

The Shepherd knows that the sheep can change their stripes.
Many have fallen for the cares of this world, and for false doctrines that seem to always accommodate more sinful behavior.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Do you think Jesus loves all people?

He does not.
It is written..."The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:5-6)

Thankfully, Jesus delivered to mankind the means of escape from such actions...and their eventual recompense.

Grafted In · Jun 25, 2025

It's been my understanding that their smallest denomination of money was all that was required...that it was basically free.
2 days pay.
In response to the original question, Scripture mentions many times that there were always Jews who looked for Jesus prior to Him revealing Himself.

Hoping2 · Jun 25, 2025

Grafted In said:
It's been my understanding that their smallest denomination of money was all that was required...that it was basically free.
2 days pay.
In response to the original question, Scripture mentions many times that there were always Jews who looked for Jesus prior to Him revealing Himself.

To what, and to whom, are you responding ?

Grafted In · Jun 25, 2025

Hoping2 said:
To what, and to whom, are you responding ?

Post 5

The heading of the thread, if you are referring to my 2nd comment.

I hope this clear things up.

Did the sacrifice on the day of Atonement cover all Israel's or only those who believed that it would?

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

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Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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