Contemporary Protestant versus the Saints

David Lamb said:

I think one problem is the definition of "saint." In the bible, "saint(s)" is used to refer to all Christians. For example, Paul addresses the recipients of his letter to the local church in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

Nowhere in the bible is "saint" used as a title, such as "Saint Paul" or "Saint Matthew", or to mark out a special class of Christians.

Also, except for reporting prayers to false gods, such as Baal on Mount Carmel ("O Baal, hear us!") all prayers in the bible are addressed to God, not to Christians who are already in heaven. The pattern for prayer which Jesus gave His first disciples opens, "Our Father, who art in heaven," not "Saint So-and-so, who art in heaven."

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St. Paul doesn't address saints, but those called to be saints.

Nick Moser said:

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

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In the Protestant church I grew up in, there was a portrait sized photo of the church's founding pastor over a door in the front. He was a Baptist minister well known in the state at that time, and he had founded several churches. There was also a painting of Jesus, one commonly found in Protestant churches, hanging behind the pulpit.

The pictures were once reversed. The pastor's hung behind the pulpit, and Jesus' over the door. When someone in the congregation first suggested moving Jesus' behind the pulpit, they were informed by another member that "He had as much to do with founding the church as Jesus," and so it was years before the pictures were moved to what I remembered.

Frankly, I had a problem with that. As respected as that minister was, he was not Christ. I think, had he been alive, he would have been the first to point that out. And that, in a nutshell, is why Protestants have a problem with the idea of saints in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church sense, and that's before we get to the issue of an intercessor.

We know, from Hebrews 7:25, that Jesus intercedes for us. Christ Himself is our intercessor. Being that the God the Son is our intercessor, why, then, turn to another? What are we saying? That God may not hear us, but hear the petition of a saint who intercedes for us? If our request is such that God will say no to us, why would He say yes if another asked for us?

As to veneration of the saints, it depends on what is meant by it. Romans 13:7 seems to be cited as justification of the practice, yet Paul was writing of civil authorities. We know that when John fell down and worshiped an angel in Revelation 22:8-9, the angel told him to stand for he was a fellow servant, and to worship God. If by veneration you mean respect for how they served the Lord and for their writings, if they left any, That's something different. Otherwise the words of Augustine of Hippo, when he crossed the street to avoid a prostitute he knew from before he was converted and who was calling to him, wouldn't be repeated in Protestant texts. We wouldn't even know of it. But what then of C.S. Lewis? Protestants don't consider him a saint in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox sense, but do respect his writings. But somehow I don't think this respect for Augustine or Lewis or other contenders for the faith is quite the same as veneration in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox sense.

I'm sorry if some find any of this offensive. I've been careful not to write this so that it would give offense. It's simply an answer to the question about Protestants and their view of Roman Catholic and, by extension, Orthodox saints.

Chesterton said:

St. Paul doesn't address saints, but those called to be saints.

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Romans 1:7 which has Paul (he is not called "St Paul" in the bible) addressing those called to be saints is certainly not the only place in the New Testament where the word "saints" occurs. It appears 61 times, and not once is it used of a special class of Christian. For example, he opens his letter to the church at Ephesus:

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:” (Eph 1:1 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

Romans 1:7 which has Paul (he is not called "St Paul" in the bible) addressing those called to be saints is certainly not the only place in the New Testament where the word "saints" occurs. It appears 61 times, and not once is it used of a special class of Christian. For example, he opens his letter to the church at Ephesus:

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:” (Eph 1:1 NKJV)

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What's your definition of the word "saint"?

Nick Moser said:

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)?

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I don't have a problem with Mary who is the mother of Jesus, or of ones like Paul and Peter and James and others. But I venerate them by honoring and obeying Jesus. This is what they want. I need to first be attentive to God Himself in me personally guiding me at each moment >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

This way, I am following the basic example of any real saint who was submissive to God and how God works in our wills and our doing.

And God's word commands us to pray "for all the saints" >

"praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints---" (Ephesians 6:18)

So, we ourselves in Jesus are able to pray God's own grace to any and "all" children of God > our Apostle Peter says what supports this, I would say >

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:10)

But in the Catholic culture where I was, I was told to spend a lot of time seeking Mary and saints to pray for me. I heard not a word . . . that I remember . . . that God expects me to minister God's own grace to "all the saints", by praying for them. So, I was anti-Christ, like that.

That was not Mary's fault. That was not Paul's fault. That was not Peter's fault.

We all in Jesus are *commanded* to pray "for all the saints". So, if Mary and Paul and Peter are obedient to God's word, they might not need to have us constantly asking them to pray for us . . . if they are commanded to. And we likewise need to do what they are told to do . . . if indeed they are still interceding for people. But God's word tells us that Jesus Himself is making intercession for us, and the Holy Spirit is making intercession for us >

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)

Paul does not say Jesus needs to be asked to. He "is" making intercession for us. So, anyone with Jesus would not need to keep being asked for prayer, I would say. Because ones who love are already praying!!!

And we have Romans 8:26 >

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

So, this shows me that we do not need to go through Mary in order to get intercession and favor of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They already are favoring and praying for us. And we are expected to follow Their example, by also praying for any and all people, whether they beg us for prayer or not >

"Therefore I exhort first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence." (1 Timothy 2:1-2)

So, I can not prove with scripture that the real Mary is praying for people now, or not. But I see that the real Mary is already praying, as commanded by God, if she is; and we then would need to honor her by following her example and praying for any and all people like our Apostle Paul commands. Because if we are praying in the Holy Spirit, we are praying in all-loving love . . . not only spending much time begging people in heaven to pray only or mainly for us!! That would be caring only or mainly about my own self, versus caring in all-loving prayer.

Nick Moser said:

It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus.

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I think you mean to claim that veneration of Mary and others does not take the place of how we need to have faith in Jesus.

However > worship includes how much we give attention and submission to God. At every moment we need to submit to how God in us is transforming our character to be like Jesus and obey how God in us has us loving every person. This is where our attention belongs . . . with God Himself in us.

Now, if I am truly submissive to God in us, how much time does Jesus in me need to have me giving attention to Mary and Paul and Peter and others???? I am attentive to Jesus Himself >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

If I am in the "yoke" of Jesus in me, right now I am personally together with Jesus Himself. And He is guiding me and correcting my character so I am pleasing to our Father like Jesus is so pleasing, plus I am busy with loving any and all people like Jesus in us has us loving.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

And I now understand that the real Mary and others of Jesus have already prayed this for us, and we have in scripture how our Apostle Paul has prayed this for us > including Ephesians 3:14-21. Paul did not wait for ones to beg him to pray this for us. And we need to join him in praying all that is of God for any and all people.

Nick Moser said:

Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

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Well, as a basic, I do not need to go by what ones in the past make for claims. What they did might have been ignorant of God's word, for all I know. And I have offered things I have found which are said to be through our Apostles in the New Testament . . . ones who are confirmed by all Christian groups, and not only claimed by historians after the Scriptures were given.

Jesus has guaranteed how many will be false and deceived. So, if ones in history have made claims, I am to test what is claimed.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

You asked. And I have offered I have no problem with the real Mary who was with the disciples waiting for the Holy Spirit. And she was praying then, already . . . because she is obedient to God.

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers." (Acts 1:14)

This is how they became of one accord, by the way . . . I would say . . . because of how they prayed. So, if you pray with Jesus the way He has us praying, this will make you of one accord with whomever else is submitting to Jesus in His "yoke", "and you will find rest for your souls."

Chesterton said:

What's your definition of the word "saint"?

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A saint in the bible is simply another name for a Christian.

Often times, I see Catholic prayer to saints as a laundry list of things you want for the saint to do for you. If you want something you go to X saint b/c he can help you w/ that.
We don't think that's what praying is. We think praying is going to God & talking with him. It's not just giving him a laundry list of things you want help w/ but talking to him. He desires fellowship.

I don't think praying to a saint is similar to talking to someone here b/c often times it's wanting some kind of special power from the saint or the saint to intervene. I don't think we are to pray for special powers or some kind of direct intervention.

Another reason we object to praying to the saints is we don't actually know who is one. I don't think just b/c someone tells you 'that person was a saint', it means they are. How do I know this person just wasn't the most popular person in the room?

What ends up happening is people end up praying to people who were not saints