Contemporary Protestant versus the Saints

[Nick Moser]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

 

[2PhiloVoid]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

Nick, this isn't really a 'philosophy' topic. Probably it should be moved over to the controversial theology section of the forums.

 

[Nick Moser]

Nick, this isn't really a 'philosophy' topic. Probably it should be moved over to the controversial theology section of the forums.

My apologies

 

[Clare73]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

Why do we need intercessors when Jesus of Nazareth, the very Son of God, has been made our Intercessor/Mediator?

Is his arm too short?

 

[jas3]

Why do we need intercessors when Jesus of Nazareth, the very Son of God, has been made our Intercessor/Mediator?

Is his arm too short?

"Mediator" and "intercessor" are different things. We have "one mediator" but also St. Paul urges that "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

I believe the definition of veneration seems pretty innocent with no issues:

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines veneration as:
* respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

However , the actions associated with veneration goes beyond " respect" and elevates that meaning to a different level which causes tension within Protestant circles.

* Prayer and Invocation: Offering prayers to or through the venerated person (e.g., asking a saint for intercession).
* Rituals and Ceremonies: Participating in specific rites, liturgies, or ceremonies dedicated to them (e.g., attending Mass on a saint's feast day, performing ancestor veneration rituals).
* Bowing or Kneeling: As a sign of humility and reverence.
* Kissing: Kissing icons, relics, statues, or sacred objects associated with the venerated person.
* Offerings: Presenting flowers, candles, incense, food, or other symbolic items.

Blessings

 

[Clare73]

"Mediator" and "intercessor" are different things. We have "one mediator" but also St. Paul urges that "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men."

Intercession (enteuxis, prayer) - approaching God in intercession. . .does not require, nor is enhanced by a deceased saint (Christian), all those in Christ are intercessors.

 

[jas3]

all those in Christ are intercessors.

Weren't you just questioning why we needed intercessors at all?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

Prayers belong to God alone.

When desciples asked the Lord on how to pray, He started with 'Our Father' because only God is worthy of a prayer.

Luke 11 27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

If you could talk to the saints today, they would all tell you one thing; listen and obey the Lord.

 

[NBB]

is anti biblical bible never teaches that, also it would mean that they have God like abilities to listen to thousands of people prayers, which is not possible, also it would mean people could communicate with dead people, which the bible doesn't teach or supports

Also this scripture just seem to contradict it
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[linux.poet]

There is a difference between reading the ancient writings of a saint and respecting their contributions to the faith, and choosing to worship them as God or prayer to them as if they were.

Protestants have plenty of people in their history whom they honor and respect. Luther, Calvin, Wycliffe, William Carey, Spurgeon, Billy and Franklin Graham, and John Newton, just to name a few.

The problem is, the ND “Bible Church” view of church history is not the same as the Orthodox view of church history. We question the beliefs of ancient scholars and we actually believe that our knowledge of the Scriptures and theological understanding has improved with time. It’s a common matter to criticize Aquinas and Augustine as having theological errors or mistakes. And we’re not going to venerate errors, because everything must be consistent with the authority of the Scriptures and everything must be correct.

For some reason, the Orthodox view to me seems like it’s the opposite, like they think the church was good when it started and became more corrupt with time. So they would respect the ancient opinions of the saints and question Luther, Wycliffe, Spurgeon, Wayne Grudem et. al. Nobody is looking to make Billy Graham an Orthodox saint. It has to do with a different time chronology bias in honor and respect, not that we are all disrespectful people who don’t give anyone honor.

 

[jas3]

For some reason, the Orthodox view to me seems like it’s the opposite, like they think the church was good when it started and became more corrupt with time. So they would respect the ancient opinions of the saints and question Luther, Wycliffe, Spurgeon, Wayne Grudem et. al. Nobody is looking to make Billy Graham an Orthodox saint. It has to do with a different time chronology bias in honor and respect, not that we are all disrespectful people who don’t give anyone honor.

There are Orthodox saints from every century but the 21st (at least I'm not aware of any who reposed in the 21st), so it's not a matter of antiquarianism or thinking the faith got corrupted over time.

 

[IoanC]

It's not just a matter of correctness, but people often have deep feelings towards The Theotokos and the saints.

 

[David Lamb]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

I think one problem is the definition of "saint." In the bible, "saint(s)" is used to refer to all Christians. For example, Paul addresses the recipients of his letter to the local church in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

Nowhere in the bible is "saint" used as a title, such as "Saint Paul" or "Saint Matthew", or to mark out a special class of Christians.

Also, except for reporting prayers to false gods, such as Baal on Mount Carmel ("O Baal, hear us!") all prayers in the bible are addressed to God, not to Christians who are already in heaven. The pattern for prayer which Jesus gave His first disciples opens, "Our Father, who art in heaven," not "Saint So-and-so, who art in heaven."

 

[Clare73]

Weren't you just questioning why we needed intercessors at all?

The issue is deceased saints as intercessors. . .

 

[jas3]

The issue is deceased saints as intercessors. . .

Then I'm not sure why you were attacking the concept of intercessors in general. But on the note of deceased saints:

Intercession... does not require a deceased saint (Christian), all those in Christ are intercessors.

are the deceased not "in Christ"?

 

[Clare73]

Then I'm not sure why you were attacking the concept of intercessors in general. But on the note of deceased saints:
are the deceased not "in Christ"?

Does the sun not rise in the east?

 

[jas3]

Does the sun not rise in the east?

Then according to your statement, they can be intercessors just as well as those on earth.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

“GIVE HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE.” (Rom. 13:7)

Why do so many Protestants have such a problem with the veneration of saints especially Mary (Theotokos)? It's not replacing our faith of saints with Jesus. Additionally for centuries from the early church to even early reform saints were used as intercessors

It's because they're dead, so the main focus is on Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Then according to your statement, they can be intercessors just as well as those on earth.

Where in the NT do we find this practice or anything related to it?

Is this an invention of man?