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Lake Mungo: Evidence of an early practice of religion and a problem for evolutionary biology(?)

sjastro

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In the late 1960s to the early 1970s human remains from a Pleistocene site at Lake Mungo Australia were found, which included the remains of a “Mungo Lady” and “Mungo Man” both dated around 42,000 years old.
“Mungo Lady” is the earliest example of human cremation found while the remains of “Mungo Man” were covered in red ochre indicating some ritual or religious significance.
The remains of the individuals indicated they were of a gracile form like modern day humans, but not far from Lake Mungo at Kow Swamp the remains of anatomically more robust individuals which were dated 9,000 – 13,000 years old.

Here is an AI summary of both sites.

FeatureLake MungoKow Swamp
LocationSouth-western New South Wales, within the Willandra Lakes Region (World Heritage-listed)North-central Victoria, near the Murray River
Age of RemainsApproximately 40,000 to 42,000 years agoApproximately 13,000 to 9,000 years ago
Key DiscoveriesMungo Lady (oldest known cremation) and Mungo Man (buried with red ochre)Over 22 individuals with robust cranial features; evidence of intentional cranial deformation
Burial PracticesComplex rituals including cremation and ochre use, indicating early spiritual beliefsBurials with robust skulls; some evidence suggests artificial cranial deformation, possibly cultural
Cranial MorphologyGracile, anatomically modern human featuresRobust features, including thick cranial bones and receding foreheads; debates on archaic traits vs. deformation
Cultural SignificanceProvides earliest evidence of ritualistic burial practices in AustraliaOffers insights into population diversity and cultural practices in late Pleistocene Australia

This presents a problem as the logical assumption was the initial migration to Australia 65,000 years ago were by the robust type individuals who later evolved into the more gracile form.
The current consensus is that there was no separate migration waves to Australia of peoples of robust and gracile forms or some form of evolutionary reversal, but over time, in-situ diversification—cultural, environmental, biological—led to robust variations in the late Pleistocene.

Here is a video on the Lake Mungo archaeological site including the issues of science clashing with indigenous peoples which is a global issue where excavations are considered desecrations of ancestral sacred sites.

 

Ophiolite

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Back to the drawing board.
Keep up. We no longer use drawing boards; too Victorian. CAD packages are what enable the granularity I referenced.

I know you are somehow offended (or amused, or disgusted) by the way science continually revises its findings. That is your problem, not a problem of science. The readiness to discard worn out ideas on the basis of new evidence is something to be celebrated. I find it sad that you deliberately exclude yourself from that opportunity; and very annoying that you keep subjecting others to your misinformed commentary on the topic.
 
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AV1611VET

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I know you are somehow offended (or amused, or disgusted) by the way science continually revises its findings.

Of the three: "amused."

"Intuitive" would be more accurate though.

I expect it.

That is your problem, not a problem of science.

Yup -- not a problem of science -- got it.

That's why scientists are out there performing manhours upon manhours of sweat equity, looking for ANYTHING to substantiate their claims, while finding just the opposite.

Then it's back to the CAD package for an update.

The readiness to discard worn out ideas on the basis of new evidence is something to be celebrated.

Funny how ideas go stale, isn't it?

I find it sad that you deliberately exclude yourself from that opportunity;

I wasn't called to be a scientist, so I'm not missing anything.

I just enjoy the fruits of their labor.

As long as no one gets hurt or killed.

Or the Bible gets contradicted.

... and very annoying that you keep subjecting others to your misinformed commentary on the topic.

I don't mind being misinformed.

For 76 years, how long was science misinformed about Pluto?

76 years
 
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trophy33

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For 76 years, how long was science misinformed about Pluto?
Funny fact is that nothing changed about Pluto as such. But astronomers discovered plenty of other small objects comparable to Pluto, in our solar system. So, two options arose:
a) forcing children in school to memorize dozens of planets
b) taking the status of planet from poor Pluto; instead, these objects are called dwarf planets, now
 
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AV1611VET

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BCP1928

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No argument there.

But when best isn't good enough -- you should admit it.
Good enough for what? Being a "Planet" was never an objective fact about Pluto, it was a conclusion about Pluto, a classification based on the limited information available at the time.
 
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The Barbarian

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For 76 years, how long was science misinformed about Pluto?
You do realize that "planet" is a man-made description, right? It's like arguing whether Australia is an "island" or a "continent." No one is confused about Australia itself.

When it became clear that there were many Pluto-sized objects out there in the Kuiper Belt, it was convenient to classify Pluto with them. You've illustrated a problem that some (not all) non-scientists have with understanding science. Astronomers could have, for example, classified anything the size of Pluto or larger as a planet. It's just as geographers chose to consider Greenland an Island; they might have also identified it as a continent.
 
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AV1611VET

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Funny fact is that nothing changed about Pluto as such.

No argument there.

Let's not blame the hardware for how the software portrays it on paper.

But astronomers discovered plenty of other small objects comparable to Pluto, in our solar system.

So I heard.

So, two options arose:
a) forcing children in school to memorize dozens of planets
b) taking the status of planet from poor Pluto; instead, these objects are called dwarf planets, now

a) Like they do, teaching the states and their state capitols? (we have dozens of states, you know)
b) Do we now have dwarf elements in the periodic table too, now?
 
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AV1611VET

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Good enough for what? Being a "Planet" was never an objective fact about Pluto, it was a conclusion about Pluto, a classification based on the limited information available at the time.

Ditto for Earth?

Are we just a "conclusion based on information" as well?
 
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AV1611VET

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You do realize that "planet" is a man-made description, right?

Right.

Only on paper.

It's like arguing whether Australia is an "island" or a "continent."

Yup.

Change the definition, and you have to change the category.

No one is confused about Australia itself.

As I said, let's not blame the hardware on the software that describes it.

When it became clear that there were many Pluto-sized objects out there in the Kuiper Belt, it was convenient to classify Pluto with them.

Do what'cha gotta do.

Just live with the consequences, and don't get in a huff if someone doesn't like it and speaks their mind.

This "road rage" that academia seems to have towards anyone who dares disagree with them borders on being a crime.

You've illustrated a problem that some (not all) non-scientists have with understanding science.

I'm not gong to lose any sleep over not understanding science.

But I tend to start looking over my shoulder when science's zero tolerance of us plebeians raises it's ugly head.

Need I post the "University of Winnipeg vs Bob Larson" article again?
 
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The Barbarian

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Regarding Kow Swamp hominids, it's noteworthy that this isn't the only example of early hominids persisting well into the time of anatomically modern humans in this part of the world.

H. floresiensis, apparently a race of H. erectus, existed in what is now Indonesia 50,000 years ago, and they were more archaic than the Kow Swamp people.
 
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AV1611VET

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That Earth is a planet? Yes.

Wow.

Looks like none of our planets are safe from being reclassified, are they?

Was "child in the womb" reclassified to "fetus"?

You know what a fetus is, don't you?

It's a child in his/her stage of life, where it's legal to terminate him before he has a chance to say anything about it.
 
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The Barbarian

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Do what'cha gotta do.

Just live with the consequences, and don't get in a huff if someone doesn't like it and speaks their mind.
Astronomers don't care if you understand it or not. No one loses any sleep over stuff like that. They make jokes about it.
This "road rage" that academia seems to have towards anyone who dares disagree with them
Is a fantasy mostly. My first course in evolutionary biology, the instructor brought in a creationist to present his case. I did graduate work in immunology in the same university with a professor who was a creationist. He had tenure, and the only person who expressed unhappiness with his stance was an undergraduate who seemed to take it personally.
borders on being a crime.
Well, the current president does seem to be considering that kind of thing to be "crimethink." Big Brother might be coming to your rescue.
 
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The Barbarian

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Wow.

Looks like none of our planets are safe from being reclassified, are they?
One astronomy website suggested "Uranus is next." Be very afraid.
 
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BCP1928

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Wow.

Looks like none of our planets are safe from being reclassified, are they?
So what? It's not like there is such a thing as "planetness" which they are being denied. What you are pitching here begins to look like Platonism, a blasphemous pagan philosophy inimical to Christianity
Was "child in the womb" reclassified to "fetus"?

You know what a fetus is, don't you?

It's a child in his/her stage of life, where it's legal to terminate him before he has a chance to say anything about it.
So what? Abortion has the same result whether you call it "child in the womb" or "fetus." BTW, "fetus" is the older term.
 
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The Barbarian

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Need I post the "University of Winnipeg vs Bob Larson" article again?
Do what'cha gotta do.


The U of W released a statement Thursday stating it wouldn't intervene, citing the importance of academic freedoms while reiterating the university's commitment to principles of diversity and inclusivity on campus.

"I ask, where do you draw the line between academic freedom and the safety of your students," Brie Villeneuve, 2SLGBTQ+ student director for the University of Winnipeg Students' Association, said at the rally Friday.

"The use of 'transgenderism' is often used by anti-trans individuals to claim that our identities are ideologies and not real."
 
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