Is Trump the new Lyssenko?

Perpetual Student · Jun 16, 2025

A little history lesson. In the former Soviet Union a biologist named Trofim Lyssenko challenged Darwin's theory of evolution. Joseph Stalin somehow labelled darwinism as "capitalist science" and all soviet science centers had to adopt Lyssenko's theories. Soviet agriculture was based on lyssenko's ideas, with disastrous results.

Trump has issued an executive order named: "Defending Women From Gender Ideology Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth to the Federal Government".

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.federalregister.gov

In the EO we can read "It is the policy of the United States to recognize two sexes, male and female. These sexes are not changeable and are grounded in fundamental and incontrovertible reality.". The USA has now a state imposed "biological truth". Just like Stalin and Lyssenko imposed a single view on biology, Trump imposes also a "biological truth".

IS that what you guys want - science dictate by the government?

edit for those who are confused, I equated Trump with Lyssenko. To equate him with Stalin seemed me a few bridges too far.

Always in His Presence · Jun 16, 2025

No, not any more than all the DEI and LGBTQ policies enacted in the last administration

It is just the other end of the pendulum swing

Perpetual Student · Jun 16, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
No, not any more than all the DEI and LGBTQ policies enacted in the last administration

It is just the other end of the pendulum swing

The swinging and missing is on your side, my friend. The previous administration didn't proclaim "biological truths". Policies can be based on science, policies aren't science.

FAITH-IN-HIM · Jun 16, 2025

The issue with Executive Orders (EO) is that they have historically been used by presidents primarily for national security purposes when there was insufficient time to go through the legislative branch. However, since President Obama's tenure, presidents have increasingly used EOs for domestic agendas. These orders are neither explicitly legal nor unlawful; rather, they represent the policies of the current administration. EO can be rescinded by a subsequent president, as evidenced by President Trump’s actions regarding the EOs issued by President Obama and President Biden.

We should return to a time where the President utilizes Congress to pass legislation rather than relying on executive orders.

GoldenBoy89 · Jun 16, 2025

Presidential proclamations don’t determine biology.

Always in His Presence · Jun 16, 2025

Biology, which is a science states there is male, female and a very rare anomaly where both sex organs are present.

No swing, no miss. Just science.

essentialsaltes · Jun 16, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Biology, which is a science states there is male, female and a very rare anomaly where both sex organs are present.

So there are more than two options in reality.
Trump's EO has exactly two options, as a matter of "incontrovertible reality"

Always in His Presence · Jun 16, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
So there are more than two options in reality.

Are we following biological science or someone’s reality based on culture?

essentialsaltes · Jun 16, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following biological science or someone’s reality based on culture?

The regulation of society or a government or a nation is not a scientific result, but a political one, although scientific knowledge can help guide decision-making. In part by determining what is real and what is not.

Always in His Presence · Jun 16, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
The regulation of society or a government or a nation is not a scientific result, but a political one, although scientific knowledge can help guide decision-making. In part by determining what is real and what is not.

Are we following the science? Are we not following the science just that simple question

essentialsaltes · Jun 16, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following the science? Are we not following the science just that simple question

I'm not sure who 'we' are supposed to be. But as you note, Trump is not following "Biological Truth".

In the social sciences, gender roles and gender expression in society are socially created categories.

In the biological sciences, sexes are much as you have stated with two prominent but not exclusive alternatives. And additional alternatives to the one you mentioned, such as having a phenotype that doesn't match that expected from the genotype.

The social regulation of society is more rooted in the social sciences, humanities and political philosophy.

Perpetual Student · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following the science? Are we not following the science just that simple question

We (you guys) should follow the science. Life sciences are more nuanced, more subtle and more complicated than what is thought in high school. Yes, the vast majority of the people are in one of the two categories (man or woman). But there is a tiny minority (I have seen estimates of 0.5%) that don't fit these two extremes and are somewhere in between. (You - singular) hint at that too.
But what is really irritating in this is that you now are burdened with a state-dictated science. The government dictates what the science says and not the scientists anymore. Hence the referrence to Stalin and Lyssenko.

A2SG · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following the science?

No.

Always in His Presence said:
Are we not following the science just that simple question

Trump's EO is not following the science.

Here's Why Human Sex Is Not Binary

Ova don’t make a woman, and sperm don’t make a man

www.scientificamerican.com

We know that humans exhibit a range of biological and behavioral patterns related to sex biology that overlap and diverge. Producing ova or sperm does not tell us everything (or even most things) biologically or socially, about an individual’s childcare capacity, homemaking tendencies, sexual attractions, interest in literature, engineering and math capabilities or tendencies towards gossip, violence, compassion, sense of identity, or love of, and competence for, sports. Gametes and gamete production physiology, by themselves, are only a part of the entirety of human lives. Plentiful data and analyses support the assertions that sex is very complex in humans and that binary and simplistic explanations for human sex biology are either wholly incorrect or substantially incomplete.

For humans, sex is dynamic, biological, cultural and enmeshed in feedback cycles with our environments, ecologies and multiple physiological and social processes.

So when someone states that “An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing” and argues that legal and social policy should be “rooted in properties of bodies,” they are not really talking about gametes and sex biology. They are arguing for a specific political, and discriminatory, definition of what is “natural” and “right” for humans based on a false representation of biology. Over the past few centuries this process of misrepresentation of biology was, and still is, used to deny women rights and to justify legal and societal misogyny and inequity, to justify slavery, racialization, racism and to enforce multiple forms of discrimination and bias. Today dishonest ascriptions of what biology is are being deployed to restrict women’s bodily autonomy, target LGBTQIA+ individuals broadly and, most recently, attack the rights of transexual and transgender people.

The fact is, human biology isn't as simple as some would like it to be. For example, according to some estimates, around 2% of humans are intersex:

People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don’t fit into a male/female sex binary. Their genitals might not match their reproductive organs, or they may have traits of both. Being intersex may be evident at birth, childhood, later in adulthood or never. Being intersex isn’t a disorder, disease or condition.

Science does not conclude that the "sexes are not changeable and are grounded in fundamental and incontrovertible reality." Science, in fact, observes that human sexuality is quite complex, and we surely don't know everything there is to know about it, which is why research is ongoing.

Trump is legislating based on a limited, incomplete and downright false idea about what the science of human sexual biology knows.

-- A2SG, I know, Trump acting on a complete lack of knowledge about something seems odd, don't it?

FAITH-IN-HIM · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following biological science or someone’s reality based on culture?

The issue is not about biology or science, but rather legislation. Does the United States have any federal law that only recognizes two genders? If not, the answer may be ambiguous.

If conservatives want to recognize only two genders in the USA, President Trump could ask Congress to pass a law to that effect. Since both Congress and the White House are currently under conservative control, passing such a law should not be difficult.

I would reiterate my earlier comment: as long as the president continues to use executive orders on domestic issues such as gender identification or immigration, this kind of debate will persist. We need proper legislation to address these matters.

For some people, it is common sense or what you described as “biological science”; for us, nothing more is required. However, there are those who are confused or seek to create a society that some of us consider nonsensical or contrary to the norms of nature. While we cannot prevent them from the way of thinking, we can establish order and normalcy through legislation.

Always in His Presence · Jun 17, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The issue is not about biology or science, but rather legislation. Does the United States have any federal law that only recognizes two genders? If not, the answer may be ambiguous.

Does the United States have any Federal Law that recognizes the multiple names in LGBTQ?

Or was this whole thing changed and in some cases exacerbated by Executive Order from the Previous President?

Biden signs executive order to fight anti-LGBTQ state bills - going against the will of the people and bypassing legislation

The president's order comes during LBGTQ Pride month and as advocates fight against a record number of anti-LGBTQ bills introduced in states across the country this year — more than 320, according to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the nation's largest LGBTQ advocacy group.

FAITH-IN-HIM · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Does the United States have any Federal Law that recognizes the multiple names in LGBTQ?

Or was this whole thing changed and in some cases exacerbated by Executive Order from the Previous President?

Biden signs executive order to fight anti-LGBTQ state bills - going against the will of the people and bypassing legislation

The president's order comes during LBGTQ Pride month and as advocates fight against a record number of anti-LGBTQ bills introduced in states across the country this year — more than 320, according to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the nation's largest LGBTQ advocacy group.

That is exactly my point

From my 1st post in the thread -“Since President Obama's tenure, presidents have increasingly used EOs for domestic agendas”.

President Biden's executive order, like President Trump's, can be overturned by the next president. It's crucial to revert to using Congress for domestic agendas as intended by the Founding Fathers, rather than relying on executive orders.

PloverWing · Jun 17, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The issue is not about biology or science, but rather legislation. Does the United States have any federal law that only recognizes two genders? If not, the answer may be ambiguous.

If conservatives want to recognize only two genders in the USA, President Trump could ask Congress to pass a law to that effect. Since both Congress and the White House are currently under conservative control, passing such a law should not be difficult.

This is a good point. "There are [only / more than] two genders" isn't really a law. Laws should be specific, addressing behaviors in well-defined situations. Which gender groups are permitted to serve in the military? Which gender groups are required to serve in the military when drafted? Which gender groups may be refused employment on the basis of their gender or gender identity? How many gender options are available on passports? Are people of particular genders required to dress in a certain way (e.g., wearing 3 items of clothing corresponding to the gender on their birth certificate, or wearing a hijab)? These are all gender-related questions that a law can address.

"Nonbinary people don't exist" isn't a law. What does it actually require people to do? Laws need to address actions, ideally actions that harm others in some way if transgressed. And I agree that Congress could undertake to write such laws, if they chose.

Perpetual Student · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are we following the science?

Is Trump following the science when he claims that windmills cause cancer?
Is Trump following the science when he claims that global warming is a hoax?
Is Trump following the science when he said that COVID-19 would disappear on its own?

Always in His Presence · Jun 17, 2025

Perpetual Student said:
Is Trump following the science when he claims that windmills cause cancer?
Is Trump following the science when he claims that global warming is a hoax?
Is Trump following the science when he said that COVID-19 would disappear on its own?

Are you derailing your own thread?

Pommer · Jun 17, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Are you derailing your own thread?

? It would seem as if our good friend is simply reenforcing their central point that Trump’s will is paramount, not the “science”.

Is Trump the new Lyssenko?

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Biden signs executive order to fight anti-LGBTQ state bills - going against the will of the people and bypassing legislation​

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Biden signs executive order to fight anti-LGBTQ state bills - going against the will of the people and bypassing legislation​

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