Are we God's "Experiment"?

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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I too have had such thoughts before and managed for the most part to get through them. This teaching helps, particularly this passage. "What is the purpose of man on the earth today? Paul says in verse 10 of Ephesians 3, “To the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” Why are we on the earth today? Our purpose is to display the wisdom of God to Satan and the principalities and powers." Man's Purpose on Earth — Bob Yandian Ministries

It might seem the "experiment has failed before, but I still assume God knew the outcome and had plans all along.

As to the judgment in front of billions. I refer you also to Matthew 12:36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Honestly, if this is done for every word it could take hundreds of years or more. But instead of a traditional trial or confrontation at judgment, what if our consciousness and responses can just be imparted and judged in mere seconds? That God could send his thoughts to everyone directly, sort of like how the Holy Spirit can speak to us at times so that we have the heart and mind of God on a matter that can change our own intellect instantly? I suppose it does not matter. Whatever the method it is going to happen.

There is so much too that we do not know. So cut yourself some slack, get into the word more and over time too you can draw out answers to your difficult questions.

In spite of man actually knowing very little, I lean on one thing that I know with certainty. That God is real, that spiritual forces are real (including evil ones). That if one does what the word says, they will be far better off than if they go on their own. I have tried to go in the wrong direction too many times to count. God in His grace though has shown me the better path. I still resist at times, but it is always best to lean into the word and the ways of God than to try and maintain or even create my own space from which my life is guided.
So to conclude, I imagine you too have had times where God has shown you he is real. Lean on that and look for more. Don't let your mind wander too far off though that you lose your focus on Jesus and the word. God bless you in your walk always.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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In a nutshell, all people are God's children and being taught what mercy is in a first hand exercise for all of us:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The evidence of disobedience is overwhelming.

Mercy is dispensed after the events of life. We can partake in small extensions, which is part of His gifts. Same with love.

But adverse judgment remains on all disobedience, regardless.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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God specifically revealed why He created man. Scripture makes it clear that God created everything for His glory and it was intentional not experimental and certainly not in vain.

For His glory:
Isaiah 43:7 "everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."
Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

For His pleasure:
Revelation 4:11
"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

To be inhabited:
Isaiah 45:18
"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

To reflect His image and have dominion: Genesis 1:26-28
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” ^{27} So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ^{28} Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

To make His wisdom known:
Ephesians 3:9-10
...and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places...

Be blessed

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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It's not an experiment. Rather, "creation" is a complex and complicated thing to do, and it takes time and change in a dynamic rather than a static universe.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don'tN understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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Not an experiment. . .

The deliberate plan of the wisdom of God before the foundations of the world whereby he is glorified through the glory of his Son in preparing a bride for him.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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Bible and namely the Old Testament (OT) is written from the view point of the iron age people. Do not take it literally. Whenever it says something weird about God (like God getting angry or regretting something etc.) read it as a teaching story, not as theology and not as literal history.

Natural theology teaches us that the perfections of God make such human emotions impossible. Natural theology was not very developed in the era of the OT, people back then used rather myths and anthropomorphism.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners. Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them". But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth. So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God. Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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That is why Christian Universal Redemption is the only way to have scripture as a whole make sense. There are so many scriptures that if you read them as written talk of this yet most reject the idea that God had a plan and in the end according to 1Cor 15:28 in the end " God will be all in all" or 2 Cor 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the cosmos to himself, not burning forever or annihilating most of his creation. or Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, the Greek word is Apokatastasis, the restoration of ALL things not a small portion of it.
That is why when I studied the idea and read the early church fathers who understood this it made so many of my questions go away.

2PhiloVoid said:

It's not an experiment. Rather, "creation" is a complex and complicated thing to do, and it takes time and change in a dynamic rather than a static universe.

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That is why for me creation is not complete till 1 Cor 15:28 when God will be all in all.

Jeff Saunders said:

That is why for me creation is not complete till 1 Cor 15:28 when God will be all in all.

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Well.................let's hope that your personalized reading of the Bible is correct then.

dowthut said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't get away from the idea that mankind is God's "experiment". Look at the proof.

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There isn't any proof.
There may be incidents/Bible verses that seem to indicate something, but that's not proof.

dowthut said:

First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin

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Genesis 3:15 - one of Eve's descendants would bruise the serpents head. Both Christians and Jews consider this to be a Messianic prophecy - the difference being that Jews do not believe they speak of Jesus.
1 Peter 1:19 - Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God provided a Saviour, Jesus, before we ever needed one.
God was not caught "off guard". he knew that Adam would sin, but he already had a plan to save him, and mankind.

dowthut said:

Then comes the time of Noah (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

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Yes, he was deeply troubled that his creation - those made in his image - had largely chosen to disobey and reject him.

dowthut said:

But instead of wiping us out, He continues His "experiment" by allowing Noah and his family to live and replenish the earth.

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Well exactly - he didn't wipe mankind out.
Noah, at least, believed in, served and obeyed God. God saved him and his family.
It's interesting that you see this as God choosing to continue with an "experiment"; I see it as God showing mercy to those who loved him.
Noah didn't build the ark overnight - people would have asked him what he was doing and been told that God was going to send a flood to punish them for their sin. They just mocked, and carried on rejecting God.

dowthut said:

So, the earth is replenished but most of mankind continues to sin and ignore God.

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Many did; not everyone. Even Israel did not ignore God all the time. God sent judges, prophets and kings to lead them - Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Gideon, David, Elijah and Elisha, Isaiah, Hosea, Ezekiel etc. etc.

dowthut said:

Moving up to the time of Jesus, He makes this statement: John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". So, God goes from "I regretted that I have made human beings" to "He so loved the world". That is confusing.

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When God led the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, he led them to Mt Sinai, made a covenant with them and gave them his law. Israel who had been rescued by God, became his people. Throughout the OT however, Israel broke their covenant with God - not just once but again and again. Each time God punished, or corrected, them, they repented, he forgave them and restored them. Read Hosea 11 for an example of God's love for his people.
Finally, God said that he was going to make a new covenant with his people, Jeremiah 31:31-34. They were incapable of keeping the old one and many thousands of animals were being sacrificed in an attempt to atone for their many sins. The sacrifice for sin, or guilt, was a perfect lamb (in some cases, goat). When Jesus came he lived a perfect life. He was the Lamb of God who gave his perfect life for the sins of the world, John 1:29. Before he died he told his disciples that his blood was the blood of the New Covenant poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 10:1-18 explains how Jesus' sacrifice was made once, for all.

dowthut said:

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind.

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He wants people to know and believe in his Son.

dowthut said:

Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation.

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What makes you think that our creation was "an experiment" in the first place?
"Experiment" suggests that someone doesn't know what will happen and they want to find out. God knows everything.

I don't believe God annihilates anyone.

dowthut said:

I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged.

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Who are the "billions" who will stand before Jesus - Christians, or unbelievers?
Who is the one person in those billions who will be judged?

dowthut said:

How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions?

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I don't get what you're asking.
If you're saying that the "billions" are unbelievers and only one in so many billion will be a Christian, what evidence do you have that that will be the case?
If you are saying that the billions are all the people who have ever lived and the one person being judged will be Jesus, that is completely wrong and I think you need to go back and read the NT.
Jesus won't be judged; he never did anything wrong. People who do not know Jesus as their Saviour will be judged. People who once knew Jesus but rejected him, or were given an opportunity to meet Jesus but did not take it, will be judged, maybe more severely. Christians who believe in Jesus and have eternal life, will be asked to give an account of their lives, but will not be judged for their sin - Jesus has taken that and they have received his forgiveness.
Who exactly will be judged - eg babies and people who never heard the Gospel - and what criteria will be used, is unknown and best left to God.

trophy33 said:

Bible and namely the Old Testament (OT) is written from the view point of the iron age people.

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Jesus does not share your low view of the OT.

Jesus believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Jn 10:35, Lk 11:28, 5:1),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).

Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).

Belief in the authority and truth of the OT as the word of God was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

dowthut said:

That goes against the idea that the Word of God is perfect. 2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness".

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Where do you see "perfect" or "the Word of God" in the verse and what would "perfect" even mean? How do you define "All Scripture"? What "breathed out" means? Is "profitable" enough or do you feel it should to be something more, like "perfect" (similar letters, but totally different meaning)?

I think people try to read their specific religious traditions into the frequently ambiguous, unclear or opaque Bible texts.

2PhiloVoid said:

Well.................let's hope that your personalized reading of the Bible is correct then.

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This is the view from some of the early church fathers not my personal reading, i figure those closest to the beginning, being Greek speakers and understanding the culture, so I think I am on firm ground to say that.

Jeff Saunders said:

This is the view from some of the early church fathers not my personal reading, i figure those closest to the beginning, being Greek speakers and understanding the culture, so I think I am on firm ground to say that.

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Ok. You're opinion has been noted. Thank you!

dowthut said:

You said - "What makes you think that our creation was "an experiment" in the first place?
"Experiment" suggests that someone doesn't know what will happen and they want to find out. God knows everything".
That's what makes it so confusing. God knew even before He created us and knew that He would "regret" making us.

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If he had really regretted making us he didn't need to wait until Noah - he could have killed Adam and Eve and started again. Or killed Cain and waited for Adam and Eve to die of old age.

I don't know exactly why it says "God regretted ....". It may, or may not, say that in the original Hebrew, it could be that a translator used that word to try to explain God's feelings, or forthcoming actions.
But God didn't destroy everyone - and if he had been truly sick of all his creation, he could easily have done so.

dowthut said:

Why didn't He just give up the plan then?

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What plan?
He didn't give up on human beings because he didn't want to.

dowthut said:

There wouldn't be billions of people who exist and have good memories only to go the grave and be as if they never existed.

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Ah, but that's not what happens after death.
Because Jesus was raised from the dead, we can be too; 1 Corinthians 15. Eternal life means life forever - not physical life on this earth and then oblivion.

dowthut said:

What's the purpose in that? God would have been less frustrated if He just ditched the plan to create us.

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If you don't believe in life after death, if you believe that people are free to believe in God, or not and then die and are annihilated, maybe there is no point.

So I'd like to ask you the same thing; what's the point?
What does it matter if people live good, righteous, inspirational lives or sinful, cowardly lives of greed and serving themselves - if everyone is going to be annihilated? Who cares if someone is born into wealth or a family of drug addicts, if they die eventually and then it will be as if they'd never been born?
What was the point of Jesus, who is and was God, being born, teaching people about God, healing those who were ill and raising the dead? They all died eventually and then, according to you, there was nothing.
What was the point of Jesus having offered his life for our sin? His death wasn't a mistake or tragedy; he knew it was going to happen and he knew it was the only way we would be reconciled to God. What was the point of going through all that physical agony - in fact why do we even need to be reconciled to God if we all die and then cease to exist?
What's the point of going through life tying to do the right thing, believing/not believing if it's all for nothing?

dowthut said:

Look at the proof. First, Gods seems to be caught off guard when Adam and Eve sin and all of mankind from then on are considered by God to be sinners.

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God wasn't caught off-guard. He is outside of time and space, He knew it would happen and He allowed it to happen. Everything God does is for His glory.

Does that mean Adam and Eve had no choice? Absolutely not, they chose freely to sin.

dowthut said:

I believe in God and the Trinity, but I just don't get His plan for mankind. Today there are billions of people who are lost, and I just don't understand why He continued His experiment, only to send billions to annihilation. I try to visualize the day of judgement with billions standing before Jesus and that one person in the midst of those billions who will be judged. Can you visualize it? How can that one person be judged in the midst of billions? It just boggles my mind. And yes, I know that God does things that are above our mind, but some things just don't make sense.

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Experiment? God created us to His image, so we reflect His glory like a mirror, so we do good that He does. God created us so we can enjoy eternal intimate relationship with Him, with no evil, no pain, no suffering, only perfect love.

But we rejected it, it was our choice. And our rebellion has consequences. Why? Because God is good, therefore He must punish all evil.

The problem with humanity is ofc they blame God for everything. We constantly sin, but when evil happens to us because of our sin, we blame God. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Let me tell you something. No one loves you more than God, yet all we do is sin. You see now?

God desires no one to perrish. That's why He sent His only Son to suffer and die, so whoever believes in Him might be saved.

If we were an experiment, He would never sent His Son.