The beast out of the sea

PesachPup said:

The dividing of time, found in Dan 7:25, does not equal 3.5 years. It's different wording than that found in Dan. 12:7. As i noted to Doug, 3 Hebrew (lunar) years will always have 37 or 38 months. The 42 months of Rev 13, because it is the same period as found in Dan 7:25, can only be 4 or 5 months longer than 3 years, and is not 3.5 years. The "dividing of TIME" can refer to any portion of a year, short of a whole year/ time. It is the same word used in verses 12 and 25 of Dan 7, but you are ignoring the part about the dividing of time. This time, times, and the "dividing" of time, refers to the time that the saints of the most High are given into the hand of him that arises AFTER the ten horns (and the little horn), see verse 24. If you can grasp that, you can then realize that the 42 months is not going to be equal to 3.5 years.

Be Blessed
The PuP

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I agree that the expression time, times, half time does not equate to exactly 3 1/2 years, but is an approximation.

Douggg said:

The little horn person goes through 5 stages.

1. as the little horn leader of a group of ten EU leaders. (this is what to look for, should happen soon)

2. then after Gog/Magog, he becomes the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26-27.

3. then, he is anointed the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah becoming the Antichrist.

4. then, after about 3 years, he reveals himself to be the man of sin, 2Thessalonians2:4. End of his time as the Antichrist as the Jews will reject his claim of having achieved God-hood.

5. then, after being killed and come back to life, he becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13, and becomes dictator over the EU, supported by the ten kings that will rule with him.

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You say it yourself: after Gog, he's anointed as king. The 'Antichrist' (as you put it, I wouldn't term it this) confirms the covenant. This is when Dan 7:25 (and Dan 12:7) time, times, half a time occurs.


Where does it say anything about the EU or Beast-King here? Nowhere. The 'antichrist' has control over the saints during this timeframe. Literally nothing you have said contradicts this.

When he's anointed as king then that starts Dan 7:25 & Dan 12:7. These are the 1st half.

Douggg said:

Yes, this is the eschatology forum. We discuss a lot of complex topics, which there are numerous explanations and disagreements. It is the nature of the forum. Which is why I don't make personal degrading comments of other posters who disagree with me and/or I with them.

Posters who post long posts, many of which, if not most, are hard to follow - does indicate that they have spent a lot of time studying the scriptures and have a dedicated interest in eschatology.

So to make personal degrading comments about and to such posters is not appropriate imo.

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Did you take my reply as personal and degrading? It was not. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was merely addressing your rejecting my post because the subject of the 4 kings is not covered by John in Revelation. The scriptures i posted (too lengthy?) was to help you connect Daniel to revelation and the things not mentioned by John. Most people don't get it either. If I were to cover all the things you believe about revelation that are not addressed by John, it would be a lengthy book.
Be Blessed
The PuP

tranquil said:

You say it yourself: after Gog, he's anointed as king. The 'Antichrist' (as you put it, I wouldn't term it this) confirms the covenant. This is when Dan 7:25 (and Dan 12:7) time, times, half a time occurs.

Dan 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.​

Where does it say anything about the EU or Beast-King here? Nowhere. The 'antichrist' has control over the saints during this timeframe. Literally nothing you have said contradicts this.

When he's anointed as king then that starts Dan 7:25 & Dan 12:7. These are the 1st half.

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Daniel 7 alone does not reveal all 5 stages the little horn goes through. Only 2 of the stages.

Daniel 7 addresses stage 1 - his first emergence, to come to power over ten kings.

and stage 5 - his beast-king stage which in Daniel 9:25 he will oppress the saints for a time, times, half time. During the 2nd half.

Douggg said:

The little horn person goes through 5 stages.

1. as the little horn leader of a group of ten EU leaders. (this is what to look for, should happen soon)

2. then after Gog/Magog, he becomes the prince that shall come of Daniel 9:26-27.

3. then, he is anointed the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah becoming the Antichrist.

4. then, after about 3 years, he reveals himself to be the man of sin, 2Thessalonians2:4. End of his time as the Antichrist as the Jews will reject his claim of having achieved God-hood.

5. then, after being killed and come back to life, he becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13, and becomes dictator over the EU, supported by the ten kings that will rule with him.

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Rev 12:3's '7 heads, 10 horns, 7 crowns' is the 1st half. = Dan 7:25

Rev 13:1's '10 horns, 7 heads, 10 crowns' is the 2nd half. = shortened great tribulation to a 'season & a time' in Dan 7:12

You pretty much are describing this, but I don't necessarily agree about the person who confirms the covenant is the same one who is mortally wounded and resurrects.

Dan 9:26's 'people of the prince to come destroy the city & sanctuary' = Attack of the Assyrian at the start of the Trumpets & the attack of Gog at the start of God's wrath at the start of the Trumpets (Ezek 38:18-19)

'Locusts' are the army of the Assyrian
These 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet are the 'forces of the Assyrian' that place the abomination of desolation in Dan 11:31 at the 6th Trumpet.

Here is Joel's locusts. They are an invading army that cuts off the daily grain & drink offerings.

The Daniel 7 Little Horn is not the Assyrian that is invading Israel.

After Gog is destroyed, the Daniel 7 Little Horn (the Rev 10 Mighty Angel) (Tyre) (Lucifer Morningstar of Isaiah 14) (the 'dragon') confirms the covenant of Dan 9:27.

The Dan 7 Little Horn is the 'man in linen' of Daniel 12. What you call the 'antichrist' is the Dan 12 Man in Linen. After the events of Daniel 11:29-45, which includes the placement of the abomination of desolation, the 'man in linen' confirms the covenant and it is broken at the 7th Trumpet.

PesachPup said:

Did you take my reply as personal and degrading? It was not. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

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No, I did not. I just wanted to assure you that even though I may disagree with you, I am not going to make any personal degrading remarks against you.

Douggg said:

Daniel 7 alone does not reveal all 5 stages the little horn goes through. Only 2 of the stages.

Daniel 7 addresses stage 1 - his first emergence, to come to power over ten kings.

and stage 5 - his beast-king stage which in Daniel 9:25 he will oppress the saints for a time, times, half time. During the 2nd half.


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Posting a graph does not prove anything. Nor does it disprove my point. Instead of posting a graph, prove that my point is wrong with verses.

tranquil said:

Dan 7:25's 'time, times, half a time' is written in Aramaic (Dan 2:4-Dan 7:28 is in Aramaic).

Dan 12:7's 'time, times, half a time' is written in Hebrew - hence the discrepancy.

The 42 months of Rev 13 is not the same time period as Dan 7:25. Dan 7:25 (and Dan 12:7) are the 1st half.

The 42 months of Rev 13 is shortened to the aforementioned 'season and a time' of Dan 7:12.

The 'dividing of time' in Dan 7:25 is the Aramaic word, 'pelag', which means 'half'.

Dan 7 Little Horn arises when the ten horns have no power (Rev 12:3's 'seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns). The 7th king: 1 lion, 1 bear, 4 Leopard, + 1 king of the 4th Beast = 7th head.

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Though I agree with "most" of what you say here, I disagree with the two statements about the 42 months. If you understood revelation the way I do, you would see that there is no 1st half to be found in the book. [I don't reject a final period of 7 years, it's just not found in the book.] All the different time references (42 months, 1260 days & T,T&half T), are all associated with the last 3.5 years, and use different time references to help the reader to understand the different starting [AND ENDING] points within those 3.5 years.
Be Blessed
The PuP

Douggg said:

Daniel 7 alone does not reveal all 5 stages the little horn goes through. Only 2 of the stages.

Daniel 7 addresses stage 1 - his first emergence, to come to power over ten kings.

and stage 5 - his beast-king stage which in Daniel 9:25 he will oppress the saints for a time, times, half time. During the 2nd half.


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Rev 9:13-21 is the destruction of Gog followed by the arrival of the 'messiah'/ 'anointed one' who will confirm the covenant (the Rev 10 mighty angel) (who is the 'dragon' who is deceiving the world (Rev 12:9).

The start of the Trumpets plus Rev 9:13-21 = Dan 9:26's 'people of the prince to come destroy the city & sanctuary' ('Locusts' of the 5th Trumpet are led by Apollyon, the 'Destroyer')

Rev 10:1-6 is Dan 9:27's confirming covenant

tranquil said:

Rev 12:3's '7 heads, 10 horns, 7 crowns' is the 1st half. = Dan 7:25

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Revelation 12:3, the 7 crowns indicate that king 7 of Revelation 17:10 has come to power, right before the 7 years begin. King 7 is the little horn person. King 8 (Revelation 17:11), the beast, is after the little horn person has been killed and come back to life.

It is in Daniel 7:24, that he first comes to power. Daniel 7:25 is later - His final time, times, half time, functioning as the beast-king.

PesachPup said:

Though I agree with "most" of what you say here, I disagree with the two statements about the 42 months. If you understood revelation the way I do, you would see that there is no 1st half to be found in the book. [I don't reject a final period of 7 years, it's just not found in the book.] All the different time references (42 months, 1260 days & T,T&half T), are all associated with the last 3.5 years, and use different time references to help the reader to understand the different starting points within those 3.5 years.
Be Blessed
The PuP

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The whole reason that Israel ('Israel') is receiving wrath is because they are breaking the covenant. The bowls of wrath are the punishment for worshiping the abomination of desolation in Mystery Babylon.

To just say there is a mysterious 3.5 year period characterized by antichrists and false prophets, great tribulation, etc renders the whole story nonsensical.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:3, the 7 crowns indicate that king 7 of Revelation 17:10 has come to power, right before the 7 years begin. King 7 is the little horn person. King 8 (Revelation 17:11), the beast, is after the little horn person has been killed and come back to life.

It is in Daniel 7:24, that he first comes to power. Daniel 7:25 is later - His final time, times, half time, functioning as the beast-king.

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You keep saying this and not proving it. When he confirms the covenant - that starts 'time, times, half a time'... I guess you are being willfully ignorant because you need the covenant to be broken 1185 days in or some such incorrect notion.

tranquil said:

When he confirms the covenant - that starts 'time, times, half a time'...

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When he confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27 - the 7 year 70th week begins.

All of the time, times, half time time frames are in the second half. They end the day that Jesus returns.

On my diagram, I have all the identical times colored coded and grouped together.

for the 42 months there are two bible references
for the time, times, half time, there are three bible references
for the 7 years, there are two bible references
for the 1260 days, there are two bible references.

In Revelation 12, Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days is the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half time is the second half. Added together makeup the 7 years.

Do you not see the organization built into the time frames. It is not by accident. And gives us a good understanding of how things are going advance once the 7 year 70th week begins.

@tranquil

On my diagram fit of all the end times time frames - which ones do you agree with my placement of and which ones you don't agree with my placement of ?

Douggg said:

When he confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27 - the 7 year 70th week begins.

All of the time, times, half time time frames are in the second half. They end the day that Jesus returns.

On my diagram, I have all the identical times colored coded and grouped together.

for the 42 months there are two bible references
for the time, times, half time, there are three bible references
for the 7 years, there are two bible references
for the 1260 days, there are two bible references.

In Revelation 12, Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days is the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half time is the second half. Added together makeup the 7 years.

Do you not see the organization built into the time frames. It is not by accident. And gives us a good understanding of how things are going advance once the 7 year 70th week begins.


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This graph is useless. It doesn't illustrate anything.

You should be more upfront about how you twist the scriptures so blatantly. When Dan 9:27 says he breaks the covenant in the middle of the week, you willfully twist it to your own vain understanding - willfully twisting it to mean it is broken not really in the middle, but sort of not really middle!

Isn't it time you stop twisting scriptures so badly?

This is how the 1290, 1335 days relates to the 1260 days:



This graph above is supported by scripture:


It's Gog that is part of the abomination of desolation. Gog's locusts result in the placing of the abomination of desolation (Joel 1:4-9) and 'destroy the sanctuary' (Daniel 9:26).

This starts the great tribulation. Gog is destroyed

30 days later the 'messiah' (what you call the antichrist) confirms the covenant (the Rev 10 Mighty Angel's swearing of an oath to heaven confirms the covenant) (Dan 9:27).

He breaks it 1260 days later in the middle of the 7 years at the 7th Trumpet (see, no funny business required!).

When he breaks it, Gog returns again (the beast who comes up from the abyss).

PesachPup said:

If you understood revelation the way I do, you would see that there is no 1st half to be found in the book. [I don't reject a final period of 7 years, it's just not found in the book.]

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The 7 years are in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, is the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half time is the second half. Added together is the 7 years.

tranquil said:

This is how the 1290, 1335 days relates to the 1260 days:

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show the 1290 days, the 1335 days, how they relate to the 7 years. Use a 7 year base line.

tranquil said:

The whole reason that Israel ('Israel') is receiving wrath is because they are breaking the covenant. The bowls of wrath are the punishment for worshiping the abomination of desolation in Mystery Babylon.

To just say there is a mysterious 3.5 year period characterized by antichrists and false prophets, great tribulation, etc renders the whole story nonsensical.

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Let me see if I can make it a little more sensical to you. From Jeremiah 52 we learn that the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar began in the 5th month [of 586 bc]. This means that he began reigning 18 years earlier in 604 BC. From Jeremiah 25:1 we learn this same year was the 4th year of Jehoiakim. From the Babylonian chronicle we can discern that Jehoiakim begins his reign around the 11th month of the year, approximately Feb/March. From Dan 1:1,2 we learn that the captivity of Daniel and his friends, as well as the departing of the vessels from the temple began in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim. This would be sometime between March of 605 BC and February of 604 BC. Jer 25: 18 calls that result the desolation of Jerusalem and their captivity... in the 4th year of Jehoiakim.

The desolation and captivity ended in the 1st year of Cyrus when he decreed that year the children of Israel and the vessels were to be returned to Jerusalem. The 1st year of Cyrus began in 539 BC when he conquered the Babylonians. This would be the 67th year of their captivity. Jeremiah said that the children of Israel must serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. It ended 3 plus years before the 70 years were complete. The exact length of time is not known because we don't know what month Daniel was taken to Babylon . Most conquests occur during the summer, so this is probably when Daniel was taken there.
Any way, the children still owe God for the unfulfilled years of captivity. Micah declares that Israel's redemption will be completed while they are dwelling there
... in Babylon. They must return there to fulfill that obligation. Their servitude to the king of Babylon, I see, as the times of the Gentiles. The exhortation found in Jeremiah 51 and Rev 18 is for my people to flee out of Babylon. It is because they will return there to fulfill her obligation (to make reconciliation for iniquity). The book of Daniel makes it clear that the desolation of Jerusalem (will resume) in the middle of the 70th week, cf Dan 9 & 12, when the sacrifices cease! According to Jer 25, the King of Babylon will not escape the judgment of God. Jer 25 and Rev. 17&18 detail the nations (including Babylon) who will be made to drink of the cup of the wrath of God. The unseen focus of the book of Revelation is the redemption of the children of Israel. As I said earlier, the desolation will resume in the midst of the 70th week. The 1st half of the week is not seen in the revelation because that period is centered around the gathering of Israel (for the unfilled judgment against her) and the rebuilding of the temple that is to be made desolate in the middle of the week. The thrust of that judgment begins when the 4 kings of Daniel 7 arrive on the scene in Rev 6:1 with the opening of the 1st Seal.
I'll not go there but the 4 sore judgments on Jerusalem, found in Eze 5 & Eze 14, includes that of evil beasts. These 4 judgments are found in the 4 seals of Rev 6.
The 1st Seal=noisome (or evil) beasts.
The 2nd seal=the sword.
The 3rd seal=famine.
The 4th seal=pestilence.

The trumpets are Joel's precursory events/SIGNS leading up to the DOTL.

The seals, trumpets and vials correspond to the three times the children of Israel are required to be in Jerusalem... the feasts of unleavened bread, weeks, and tabernacles. The three plus years of Israel's final desolation, will occur after the scattering of Israel at the time of the trumpets and their regathering at the day of Atonement, just prior to the feast of tabernacles fulfillment of the 7 vials.
Be Blessed
The PuP

Douggg said:

The 7 years are in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, is the first half. Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half time is the second half. Added together is the 7 years.

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The 1260 days (fleeing of the woman from the face of the serpent) can not begin until after Satan has been cast down to earth in the middle of the 70th week. Satan is cast out of heaven exactly 3.5 years before he is sent to the bottomless pit... in the middle of the 70th week. That 3.5 years runs from the 21st of Nisan (the 6th day of the Feast of unleavened bread) until the 21st of Tishri (the last day of the Feast of tabernacles) 3.5 years later.

Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

The 1260 days (fleeing of the woman from the face of the serpent) can not begin until after Satan has been cast down to earth in the middle of the 70th week. Satan is cast out of heaven exactly 3.5 years before he is sent to the bottomless pit... in the middle of the 70th week. That 3.5 years runs from the 21st of Nisan (the 6th day of the Feast of unleavened bread) until the 21st of Tishri (the last day of the Feast of tabernacles) 3.5 years later.

Be Blessed
The PuP

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It is not 1260 days that the woman fly's into the wilderness in Revelation 12:14, but a time, times, half time.

After the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6, there will be the Revelation 12:7-9 war in (the second ) heaven and Satan cast down to earth. Then comes the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

1260 days + war in second heaven time + time, times, half time = 7 years.