Gal 2:16 and Rom 2:13 : Works of the Law Justifies or not?

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."
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Which no one can do and, therefore, no one will be declared righteous by observing the law.

The theme of Ro 2 at this point is the unrighteousness of all mankind where, having shown the unrighteousness of the Gentiles, Paul is now showing the unrighteousness of the Jews based on the law, which they are unable to keep perfectly.

His point is to show that all mankind, Gentile and Jew, are condemned (Ro 3:20) and in need of salvation.

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

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Context is king here. Paul is not contradicting himself by saying we must "do the Law" and then say we can't be justified by "doing the Law." What he is talking about, in context, is Justification, which has to do with what must be done to obtain Eternal Life.

Nobody but Jesus can obtain Eternal Life by works of the Law, by "doing" the Law. We're not even under the Law now (nor was Jesus), but Paul was making an example of that Covenant. Like that Covenant we must, under the New Covenant, "do" the commandments of Jesus, or keep the "Law of Christ." We must live in obedience to God if we wish to live in covenant with God, no matter what covenant we are under.

What that means specifically is that when we do what God tells us to, we recognize that doing these things does not "get us into heaven." What it does is facilitate the process by which Christ applies his work of Salvation to us.

Indirectly, we obtian Salvation by the "work" of choosing to believe in Christ, that he died for our sin, and is willing to apply his atonement to us so that we may obtain through him Eternal Life. This is *not* earning our own Salvation by works, but rather, complying with a process by which we can apply *his work of Salvation* to ourselves.

He is the one Justifying us, therefore--not our own works. But we are still responsible to do good works, to choose to accept Christ, to live by the means of obtaining his Justification.

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

?

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The works of the law from my understanding is doing anything apart from Christ to be saved.

In the context of Gal 2:13 the issue was the Jews were trying to make the gentiles be justified by the law of circumcision in order to hear the gospel Gal 2:3 and was teaching they could save themselves apart from Christ by being circumcised Acts 15:1 this is what Paul spent a lot of time correcting.

While we are not justified by any law, because we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, but Paul is not teaching lawlessness. No law can save us, only the blood of Christ can save us though faith, but that doesn’t mean we are saved by not keeping God’s law either, thats shows we are an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8. Both Jesus and Paul were clear on this matter. Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 8:7-8 All God’s law does is show us our sins Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 so we don’t cover our sins Pro 28:13 and can see our true condition. Once we have identified that we have broke God’s law and are sinners, we can go to Jesus, who is the Great Physician when we confess our sins which means being truly sorry for our sin and repent, He is so faithful He will cleanse us from all our unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and when He heals He says go and sin no more. And while we can’t do this on our own, we can through Christ through our love and willingness to give up self, and submit to God’s will because through faith and love we want to obey Him because He has given us a new heart that is no longer in rebellion to Him or His law, but we keep through faith and love and by the power of the Holy Spirit John 14:15-18 this is the faith that reconciles us Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14. Jesus came to save us from our sins mat 1:21, we are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30, we need a conversion a complete transformation dying of self, being reborn in Christ.

There are two paths and the decisions we make today determine which direction we are going

Rom 6:16 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

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This whole chapter is an explanation of how God treats all sinners whether under the law or not . I believe the message here is that each one will be judged the same, either by the law or perish without it.

We need to read the whole thing.

Blessings

SabbathBlessings said:

The works of the law from my understanding is doing anything apart from Christ to be saved.
In the context of Gal 2:13 the issue was the Jews were trying to make the gentiles be justified by the law of circumcision in order to hear the gospel Gal 2:3 and was teaching they could save themselves apart from Christ by being circumcised Acts 15:1 this is what Paul spent a lot of time correcting.
While we are not justified by any law, because we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, but
Paul is not teaching lawlessness.

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Red herring. . .your consistent "go to."

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

?

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There's no contradiction. The gospel is not a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous and live accordingly, but is actually the authentic means to finally achieving that very thing. The law only tells us what righteousness "looks like" while not giving us the power to accomplish it. We must be righteous first, in a state of justice/righteousness on the inside, and then the outside will follow suit (Matt 23). And that comes only by virtue of being reconciled with God, now in a state of fellowship with Him.

So, to be "under the law" is not to be "under grace", not under God, not yet 'His people' where 'He puts his law in our minds and writes it on our hearts' (Jer 31:33) . To be under the law, performing works of the law, is to live by the letter, obeying exteriorly with no interior change as per Matt 5, no new heart or spirit as per Ez 36, no indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we enter communion with God: grafted into the life-giving Vine by faith.

The law is only a reflection of holiness, holiness which we must have in order to see the Lord (Heb 12:14). While we're not justified by mere works of the law, we still must- and now can-be holy, because of what the Lord has done for us. He justifies the ungodly, IOW, by grace, and not ourselves, by works of the law. And then, now under grace, no longer enemies of God, we must live and walk in that justice, by the Spirit, with the love He pours out into our hearts (Rom 5:5), the love that will fulfill and obey the law by its nature as we remain in Him.

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

?

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I think it means those in Christ are hearers.
We understand that the unsaved can only try in vain to please God by trying to keep the Law.
But we cannot. Aside from Christ in us, we are lost.

Grafted In said:

I think it means those in Christ are hearers.

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Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments and gives us a Helper so we can keep them. John 14:15-18

So if we are abiding in Him (in Christ) we are keeping what He asks John 15:10 through faith and love

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. (The rest of what God said is found in Exo 20:1-17) 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

Grafted In said:

We understand that the unsaved can only try in vain to please God by trying to keep the Law.But we cannot.

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But Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments so I don’t understand how this would be in vain obeying what He asks through His power, to me it seems like its the opposite

Grafted In said:

Aside from Christ in us, we are lost.

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That’s true. Amen!

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments and gives us a Helper so we can keep them. John 14:15-18

So if we are abiding in Him (in Christ) we are keeping what He asks John 15:10 through faith and love

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. (The rest of what God said is found in Exo 20:1-17) 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty

But Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments so I don’t understand how this would be in vain obeying what He asks through His power, to me it seems like its the opposite

That’s true. Amen!

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Keeping The Comandants doesn't save you. You and I cannot keep the Law.
Secondly, we keep all the Law if we let Christ rule in our hearts.
I think He may be referring to the unsaved, desperately trying to please Him by trying to live by the Law.
Jesus did that for us. If we abide in Him and remain in His Word, we have fulfilled the Law because He went before us.

I was having a discussion with my brother over the last several days on the subject of Justification and on the New View on Paul and on Justification being put forward by NT Wright. It's causing a storm among theologians including clals of "heresy."

The traditional Reformed approach sees Justification as being your typtical application of Christ's atonement as a way of replacing our own inept efforts at Salvation. By contrast NT Wright downplays Paul's statements on Justification by Faith Alone by declaring that in his time the Jews had no negativity towards Self-Made Works.

I'm paraphrasing here, and since Wright's position is considered obscure and nebulus it is difficult to characterize and be accurate. Bear that in mind. So, the following is part of the explanation of my view of Justification and "Works" to my brother. I am pro-Reformed positions, but not as anti-Works as many of the Reformers were....

My own view is not negative towards "doing works." We do works as part of the covenant terms. A covenant is an agreement between at least 2 parties, requiring certain reciprocal things.

Under the Law of Moses, Israel, in order to be part of the agreement, had to do about 613 things. God would then make them part of His Covenant, and then bless or curse them depending on how faithful or unfaithful they were in their works.

Under the New Covenant we are required not to do the 613 things of the Law of Moses, but rather, do the things Christ requires of us to be part of his covenant. We must believe in him, that he is the Son of God, and turn our lives over to operate in and like his life. In a practical sense we do things that are obviously moral under the Law without the trappings of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice.

So Works are not a bad thing. They make us part of a covenant, whether it be of Moses or of Jesus. The only covenant in effect now is Jesus, and so what we must *do* to be part of this covenant is obey his commandments and live in him.

This is one of two parts of Jewish hope, as I understand it. This is the Jewish believer's hope for personal fidelity to Christ as an individual. What is different here, as opposed to the Law, is that under the Law Israel was blessed for compliance by experiencing national blessings and deliverance from enemies. But it was not Eternal Life.

By contrast, compliance with Christ's covenant brought not only the blessing of God's favor, but also the promise of Eternal Life. Eternal Life came only by Christ's Work, and not by our own acts of obedience to his Covenant. We obtain the benefit of Christ's work by obeying his commandments, thus demonstrating our faith in him.

So, one part of the Jewish hope came for the Christian individuals who sought compliance with Christ's covenant. The other part of Jewish Hope has to do with the hope of the nation to be delivered from their oppressors. Since Israel had only been externally in compliance with the Law of Moses, but actually, depraved under that Covenant, they expected salvation but should've expected curses.

The hope of Israel continues to this day to return to God's blessings out of compliance with deeds that God requires. I'm not sure Protestants reject all works completely, as even Luther promoted the 10 Commandments as something we should do.

But Luther placed very little onus on human initiative, thinking that somehow in being passive with respect to works somehow Christ will operate when we trust in him to instill his own life into us. We do good but trust him to make our works truly good. I hope I have this right?

Faith involves an affirmation of Christ's covenant that comes through faith. And that faith involves the necessity of a transition from our own independent lives to the spiritual life of living in Christ.

It requires faith as well as obedience to get there. We have to believe Christ's new life even exists, and that Christ will give that life to us. But we also have to demonstrate our faith by acting in compliance with Christ's moral commands.

NC Wright also had a problem with "imputation," as do I. But I don't go as far as Wright in his "reorientation" towards Paul's teachings. Here is some of the discussion I had with my brother on "imputation." I do share Wright's skepticism about our modern understanding of "imputation."

Back to the "imputation" thing again? Sometimes doctrines become a form of cold legalism, a dogmatic statement that is ritualistically parroted without any real understanding as to what it means.

I do agree if Wright has a problem with "imputation," to some degree--not entirely, but to some degree. Christ's sinlessness was *not* being imputed to us, as I understand it. That would make *us* perfect!

Rather, he utilized his sinlessness to qualify us for what he gives us freely, not holding our wrongs against us. His sinless model is not a requirement that we be sinless, but rather, a requirement that we choose to live by his righteous spirituality.

It was the quality of his spirituality that was important--not its legalistic perfection. It was his love and a spirituality that comes from him alone that could be transmitted to us freely.

We did not have to be perfect to choose to live by it.Offering his spiritual life at the Cross demonstrated his willingness to give this life to anybody who wishes to express faith in him for his righteousness.

He did not use his sinlessness to transfer that sinlessness to us. That would make us perfect, or that would condemn us for not being perfect.

But he rather used his sinless life to give us an example of the quality of spirituality we should have, which only comes by a complete commitment to him and to his spirituality. There was no thought to transfer to us, at the same time, his perfection, since we would certainly have failed that!

Jesus gave us, unconditionally, access to his own spiritual righteousness so that we could live by it even in our imperfection. The hope was that in living by his spirituality, despite our imperfection, we would qualify to obtain his gift of Eternal Life, given to all those who show their faith in him.

JesusFollowerForever said:

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

?

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Again, this is a matter of perspectives.

Law, from the legal perspective will not be abolished. However from the judgment perspective, humans (comparative to angels) are deemed not under Law but under Covenant. From this perspective the effect of Law is obsolete.

Faith alone, from the perspective of the Final Judgment, only faith can tell apart the righteous and wicked as they all sinned in more or less the same way and only faith can tell them apart.

However from the perspective of human speculation and evaluation, works are weighed as humans don't have the capability to evaluate faith precisely. From this perspective then,

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We humans don't have the ability to examine faith alone, we need someone's works to speculate or evaluate whether he's righteous under the Covenant. God/Jesus however can judge heart to tell who is who by faith alone. From this perspective, faith is dead if it's not reflected in behavior for others to speculate. No humans can tell if one is righteous if it's unsupported by his/her own works.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments and gives us a Helper so we can keep them. John 14:15-18

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And Jesus' new command for the new covenant is "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 13:34)

The new covenant (Jer 31:31-33) is about inner transformation through Jesus Christ in a relation of sonship with God, rather than
a law-based relationship.

Clare73 said:

And Jesus' new command for the new covenant is "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 13:34)

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He said commandments, not a single commandment. I think it’s best to allow God be God and pretty sure He knows the difference between a singular command versus commandments, which He used in John 14::15 and no where does He say one of His teachings deletes all the others.

Would hate to miss something Jesus asks because we only listened to part of His teachings.

Grafted In said:

Keeping The Comandants doesn't save you.

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That’s true what Gods law does do is show us our sins Romans 3:20 Rom 7:7 so hopefully we go to Jesus for the solution to our sins instead of covering our sins which is not the solution Pro 28:13

Grafted In said:

You and I cannot keep the Law.

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Not on our own but we can through Christ which is a promise of Scripture through our love and faith. John 14:15-18 Rev 14:12 and this is the faith that reconciles Rev 22:14

Grafted In said:

Secondly, we keep all the Law if we let Christ rule in our hearts.

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If Christ is in us we are not going to want to sin because of what it did to Jesus on the Cross so to be in Christ we too will also die of self and be reborn in Christ obeying Him not to be saved but because we are saved. God’s law just shows us where we are so we are not depending on our righteousness but on Gods because He came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30 we need a complete conversion. If we are hostile to God’s law it’s not a good sign. Rom 8:7-8

Grafted In said:

I think He may be referring to the unsaved, desperately trying to please Him by trying to live by the Law.

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Are you saying we please God by worshipping other gods, using His holy name in vain, coveting, stealing and breaking the least of these commandments doing the opposite of what Jesus taught mat 5:19-30 and this is an example of faith in your opinion?

Grafted In said:

Jesus did that for us. If we abide in Him and remain in His Word, we have fulfilled the Law because He went before us.

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There is no Scripture that says Jesus kept the law so we don’t have to.

One of the last verses in the Bible says blessed are those that do His commandments- they enter through the gates Rev 22:14. Jesus said outside are the lawlessness Mat 7:23 Rev 22:15.

My suggestion is study your Bible in prayer and not listen to the noise around you teaching faith is not listening to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. He said if you love Me keep My commandments John 14:15.

It’s a matter of who we are going to obey and listen to Rom 6:16

Clare73 said:

And Jesus' new command for the new covenant is "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 13:34)

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SabbathBlessings said:

He said commandments, not a single commandment. I think it’s best to allow God be God

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And I think it's best to enter the New Covenant relationship with God (Jer 31:331-33) which, rather than being a law-based relationship, is a relation of sonship and inner transformation through Jesus Christ.

To each his own. . .

Clare73 said:

And I think it's best to enter the New Covenant relationship with God (Jer 31:331-33) which, rather than being a law-based relationship, is a relation of sonship and inner transformation through Jesus Christ.

To each his own. . .

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This is what God said is the New Covenant

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

When we are not subject to God's law, we are an enmity against God

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So if we are arguing against what God placed in our hearts in the New Covenant His laws, its not really a good sign. In the New Covenant is about what God will do Heb 8:10, if we cooperate with Him through our love. Why receiving the power of the Holy Spirit that enable us to keep His commandments requires us to stop arguing with God on keeping His laws, because that's not the direction Jesus told us to follow Mat 5:19 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-19

Its all conditional not based on one commandment, but all of them, breaking one we break them all in the NC James 2:11-12

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Keeping God's law is transformation of the inner self because we are no longer a slave to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4. Its like when a parent has rules, do we show love and respect to our parents by keeping them because we love them, or ignoring what they ask and do what we want instead. In Scripture this is called rebellion and sin Heb 3:7-8,12,13

Not keeping God's commandments is not the way to go

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is not what we want to hear at His Second Coming

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

But if we love Him, we allow Him to change us on the inside and obey what He asks through faith and trust that what He asks is for our own good.

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

SabbathBlessings said:

This is what God said is the New Covenant

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

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So I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

SabbathBlessings said:

When we are not subject to God's law, we are an enmity against God
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So if we are arguing against what God placed in our hearts in the New Covenant His laws, its not really a good sign. In the New Covenant is about what God will do Heb 8:10, if we cooperate with Him through our love. Why receiving the power of the Holy Spirit that enable us to keep His commandments requires us to stop arguing with God on keeping His laws, because that's not the direction Jesus told us to follow Mat 5:19 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-19

Its all conditional not based on one commandment, but all of them, breaking one we break them all in the NC James 2:11-12

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Keeping God's law is transformation of the inner self because we are no longer a slave to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4. Its like when a parent has rules, do we show love and respect to our parents by keeping them because we love them, or ignoring what they ask and do what we want instead. In Scripture this is called rebellion and sin Heb 3:7-8,12,13

Not keeping God's commandments is not the way to go

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is not what we want to hear at His Second Coming

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

But if we love Him, we allow Him to change us on the inside and obey what He asks through faith and trust that what He asks is for our own good.

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

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Jesus said the greatest commandments is what the entire Bible hangs on, not that it was obsolete. Mat 22:34-40 Rom 13:9 why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30

I guess all will get sorted out soon enough when Jesus comes and once He does, all decisions will be final Rev 22:11