I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

Hoping2 said:

The devil had yet to be conquered, during Jesus' life.

Click to expand...

The adversary remains in play to this day.

The devil's day will come to an end at some point, specifics not known to us

Hoping2 said:

So, you are pro-circumcision for salvation.
I must disagree.

Click to expand...

And that is merely your "fleshly reflection" of that law. We know the law is spiritual, Romans 7:14 and summed up in its entirety by Paul in Romans 13:8-10 and the many other likewise throughout the scriptures.

Hoping2 said:

Most of the OT Laws, excluding the ten commandments given to Moses, have been done away with.
The rest of the OT points forward to the coming Messiah and future judgement...among other things.
Allegorical, indeed.

Click to expand...

No Word of God has been eliminated. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

There very good examples of how any and every command in the Bible should be viewed in Romans 13:8-10

In Gal. 4:21-24 Paul terms the law and the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael as "allegory." IF that much of the O.T. is allegory, it's ALL ALLEGORY

In addition, the law. God's Living Word remains alive and active against all lawlessness and sin in whomever it is found. 1 Tim. 1:9. By no means eliminated. It is a rightful and continual condemner that no amounts of supposed compliance can fool, because evil is INTERNAL and can not, will not ever be compliant or lawful. It is an instrument of DEATH. And we all die because of sin. Romans 8:10

Hoping2 said:

Are you still counting yourself amongst that doomed crowd ?
I don't, since my repentance from sin.

Click to expand...

Your positions contain the very common LACK of insight into our enemy, our adversary, the devil.

You only think of yourself in the equations. Common deception courtesy of the devil.

The LAWS are in fact against the DEVIL and guess what? The DEVIL can not love our neighbors.

We know who sees and who does not simply by their fruit. No love of neighbors = DECEIVED by our adversary. Pretty simple. No offense to the deceived. Every offense to the devils.

We could even say if we can't say we are deceived, given the fact that none of us see in FULL, then we are deceived.
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I will readily say the evil conscience I bear can not be lawful, sinless or compliant with God whatsoever and I look forward to the day when Jesus will eliminate it entirely. But in the meantime we struggle and strain simply to be truthful about it. Jer. 17:9 is real and the world is full to the brim with LIARS about it

Hoping2 said:

If there is a devil, or many devils in you, it is time to repent permanently of sin and start to walk in the light, wherein is no sin. (1 John1:5)

Click to expand...

I believe that what Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is true for me and for all people. I have no issues with believing Jesus. You? In addition we know from Paul that we're no better than the common sinner, Romans 3:9 and that sin is in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

We keep circling this drill, and quite frankly conversations with sinless people are quite fruitless because such claims are totally bogus, they ignore the very real working of our adversary in our minds, they excuse lawless evil temptation thoughts from themselves as if they are not defiling as Jesus stated, and they are and will probably remain unable to even come to grips with the scriptural facts.

In addition such claims are so far out of orthodoxy it places such positions well into cult status.

Maybe you could identify what cult that is? We've had enough conversations for you to fess up at this point.

Jeff Saunders said:

That preaches good but is just not true. the English word "hell" is not even in the original text, what the agenda of the Augustinian church is to take the pagan concept of a eternal hell and make it part of scripture.
What we call "hell" is five words all put together to make our God no different than the pagan gods of old.
1-Sheol/ Grave - this is the OT word translated as "hell" , this was just the place of the dead, all people went to Sheol at death,
2-Hades - refers to the place or state of the departed spirits,often seen as an intermediate state between heaven and hell were the dead await the Last Judgement.
3-Gehenna- This is the word Jesus used. Gehenna was the place in 2 Chronicles 28:3-33:6 , the Jews did human sacrifice of their children, and was a place that the dead bodies that had been slain by their enemies were dumped and burned and not given a proper burial. The Jews being a shame based society would find this state worse than death itself, it had nothing to do with eternal punishment. For a jew not to be buried properly was a very shameful thing that was carried in the family line.
4-The Lake of Fire- The place of the second death, originally for the fallen angels.
5 Tartarus- A Greek place of the dead, used in the book of Job
Jesus spoke of Gehenna because his audience was Jews and for a Jew to not have a proper burial was shameful and the history of the Jews following idols and killing babies was one of the most shameful things that they could think of. It had nothing to do with a place that God would torture his creation for all eternity.

Click to expand...

We know that the same age limits given to Heaven is same for hell, both endless eternal time periods

BNR32FAN said:

Yes I did look it up in Biblehub and pas and pantas are not used in verse 19. Polus is used not pas or pantas.

Romans 5:19 Lexicon: For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Click to expand...

I looked it up and pantas is used in both parts of 18, and polloi is used for both parts in 19, so in both verses the first group is the same as the last group. Otherwise in vs 19 you would have some sinners and some not , if you mean by many not all.

YeshuaFan said:

We know that the same age limits given to Heaven is same for hell, both endless eternal time periods

Click to expand...

YeshuaFan said:

We know that the same age limits given to Heaven is same for hell, both endless eternal time periods

Click to expand...

The Original Greek of 2000 years ago does not back up that statement. You can go online and read many letters from the first 300 years of the church and they do not agree with what you are saying. The reason that the Christian Universal Redemption camp is growing so much is because for the first in in history we can read letters from the early church fathers now translated into english. The pillar of eternal conscious torment is being torn down brick by brick and Gods love is shining out and engulfing those who have been seeking him all this time.

Jeff Saunders said:

The Original Greek of 2000 years ago does not back up that statement. You can go online and read many letters from the first 300 years of the church and they do not agree with what you are saying. The reason that the Christian Universal Redemption camp is growing so much is because for the first in in history we can read letters from the early church fathers now translated into english. The pillar of eternal conscious torment is being torn down brick by brick and Gods love is shining out and engulfing those who have been seeking him all this time.

Click to expand...

Only scriptures were inspired, and they clearly have hell in their teachings regarding after life state

YeshuaFan said:

Only scriptures were inspired, and they clearly have hell in their teachings regarding after life state

Click to expand...

Sorry to inform you that "hell" is no place to be found in scripture, especially an eternal torture chamber, that is pure pagan garbage to make Yahweh look like a monster. There is a place of judgement, but it is for refining all that is not of God from his beloved creation, not to torture them and keep them alive forever.

bling said:

This like all your other verses have alternative interpretations to the one you use. You need to look at many translations and even a literal translation does not give but one translation to each word which might have several possibilities. Just look at the NIV to Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
You can use ESV with the understanding "bringing salvation for all people", does not mean all people will humbly accept that salvation as pure undeserved charity and thus complete the transaction. Love, atonement, forgiveness and all of God's gifts are not just one-sided transactions since the individual must also humbly accept these unconditional gifts as pure undeserved charity.
God does not command you to love Him with a gun to your head, since it would not be Godly type Love or Loving on God's part. This is a huge subject needing many words. Let's start with this one question:
Why did God create humans in the first place (what is our earthly objective)?

Click to expand...

The problem with the NIV Titus 2:11 is that the word offers is not in the original Greek, the word used is pas which means all not some, not a possibility, or an offer, but all.
God created humans to be in fellowship with in the Trinity, thats what we were created for, but most people do not think God knows what he is doing.

Beth77 said:

Do you doubt that God can persuade anybody to follow him?

Click to expand...

You will find that most people on the forum think that mans will is more powerful than Gods will. Most people want to be God and tell him what to do, the idea that Gods will is stronger than mans will is not something they like to hear. They like their ears to be tickled with, God didn't say that, your will is greater, God can't tell you what to do.

Beth77 said:

This can help the reader to understand how Christianity adopted the ungodly doctrine of forever punishment:

I found this interesting. This was Chatgpt response to the meaning of the word aion or aionios as it is used in the New Testament.

"Aiónios (αἰώνιος)
Root Meaning:As the adjective form of αἰών, αἰώνιος should logically carry the sense of "pertaining to an age" or "age-enduring."
It does not inherently mean eternal but rather something that endures for the duration of an age, which could be finite or infinite depending on the context.


Theological Context: Origen and Clement of Alexandria, were among the early Christian theologians who interpreted αἰώνιος in terms of finite "ages" rather than unending eternity, unless specifically referring to God or divine attributes. They often emphasized restoration (apokatastasis), suggesting that aiónios punishment was corrective and limited to an age, not eternal.


In contrast, later theological developments (particularly under Augustine) interpreted αἰώνιος as equivalent to "eternal" in a more absolute sense, especially in discussions of eternal punishment versus eternal life."
Even AI understands that the meaning of the word aion evolved and was later translated as eternity particularly under Augustine.

Click to expand...

Augustine used a bad Latin translation, he didn't read Greek and would not listen to the Greek teachers who tried to correct him.
We now have 1500 years of his mistake and its messed up most of the church.

timothyu said:

He can persuade but will not force anyone to change their mind. Choice. Eve and Adam chose to rebel, we must choose to repent. Otherwise it all serves no purpose. he could have forced them back on track right from the start. And again repent means change. God will not force change. It has to come from us by way of a new understanding opposite to what the world we have made in our own image teaches each since birth. The blind leading the blind.

Click to expand...

God does not need to force anyone, we were created to love and follow him, that's our purpose. The problem is most people have never had an experience with the living God, they know religion and tradition but not God. That is why most of humanity will not repent while in the mortal body, they need to have all their misconceived ideas about God striped away so they can see him as he is, then they will bend the knee and confess Jesus is Lord, just as scripture tells us will happen.

Jeff Saunders said:

The problem with the NIV Titus 2:11 is that the word offers is not in the original Greek, the word used is pas which means all not some, not a possibility, or an offer, but all.
God created humans to be in fellowship with in the Trinity, thats what we were created for, but most people do not think God knows what he is doing.

Click to expand...

Very few "Greek" words have an exact English equivalent. I gave you one example and not a lengthy study of the verse in question.
Yes! God does want a close fellowship with man, but the problem is not with God, but with man. Man was made "very good" by God's standard of "very good", but that is not "perfect" like Christ a not made being is "perfect". "Very good" might mean as good as a made being could be made, but that also means this made being lacks something. The one thing God could not program into a human, is what we spend time here on earth trying to obtain and grow. You need to understand our earthly objective, since that we also tell you why those unwilling to obtain the objective would not be happy in heaven.

Clare73 said:

No. . .God has a plan to reconcile ALL THINGS that are in Christ back to him.

Not all things are in Christ.

Click to expand...

2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespassed against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
If you understand what reconciliation is your argument falls apart.
Reconciliation is when two or more parties come to agreement and things are made whole or right, if any part of the whole is not back to rightness then reconciliation has not taken place.
If one person were left out then God failed at reconciliation, and I do not believe God can fail, if you do, you do not know God.

Jeff Saunders said:

2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespassed against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
If you understand what reconciliation is your argument falls apart.
Reconciliation is when two or more parties come to agreement and things are made whole or right, if any part of the whole is not back to rightness then reconciliation has not taken place.
If one person were left out then God failed at reconciliation, and I do not believe God can fail, if you do, you do not know God.

Click to expand...

God did not give us "reconciliation" directly, but the "message of reconciliation", so what do people do with this "message"?

Hoping2 said:

Yes.
But a lot of the time what He 'sets out to do' is contingent on the folks involved in the decisions He makes.
He set out to free the Israelites from Egyptian bondage, but most of the Israelites wanted to return to Egypt, after a while in the desert.
It turned out the way He designed it though, as the entire venture was to show us a pattern of things to come; and to further his agenda regarding the Word's coming to earth in the flesh to save them who turn from sin.
The pattern...a promised land flowing with milk and honey.
But nobody was found worthy of it except two men.
The fulfillment of that pattern...eternal life with God.
But only those who love Him enough to hold Him above any other wants will receive it.

Click to expand...

So do you think that all those who died in the wondering never reached Gods eternal promised land, it was all about spending a few years more on earth?

Yo

bling said:

Very few "Greek" words have an exact English equivalent. I gave you one example and not a lengthy study of the verse in question.
Yes! God does want a close fellowship with man, but the problem is not with God, but with man. Man was made "very good" by God's standard of "very good", but that is not "perfect" like Christ a not made being is "perfect". "Very good" might mean as good as a made being could be made, but that also means this made being lacks something. The one thing God could not program into a human, is what we spend time here on earth trying to obtain and grow. You need to understand our earthly objective, since that we also tell you why those unwilling to obtain the objective would not be happy in heaven.

Click to expand...

Your God " could not program into a human" ? If you believe this, you don't know God, he is infinite, he has no limits , everything that was created was created by him and for him, but he just couldn't figure out how program humans so that they would love him?

bling said:

The one thing God could not program into a human, is what we spend time here on earth trying to obtain and grow. You need to understand our earthly objective, since that we also tell you why those unwilling to obtain the objective would not be happy in heaven.

Click to expand...

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yes, God did program everyone to be disobedient in addition to lying about it, which of course is part of the program that people robotically run. Jer. 17:9

And after they are saved, the fact that God bound us to disobedience doesn't change. Only our ability to see the fact of it as being from our adversary, not ourselves changes.

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jeff Saunders said:

Yo

Your God " could not program into a human" ? If you believe this, you don't know God, he is infinite, he has no limits , everything that was created was created by him and for him, but he just couldn't figure out how program humans so that they would love him?

Click to expand...

A robotic type of "love" is not a Godly type Love, which is how God Loves us.
There are things which are impossible to do, like God cannot create another Christ since Christ is not a created being. This is similar to the impossibility of making a being which can of its own autonomous free will choose to humbly accept God's charity/Love as charity. If God programs the person to "love" Him, it is not of their own free will, they are Loving Him, so it is not Godly type Love, but a robotic type love.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Click to expand...

You have to read this verse in context:

Ro. 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!...

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Reasoning: God does not make/program people to sin, but does allow them to sin. All mature adults will sin, because they start out lacking the Love and indwelling Holy Spirit to not sin. It is the fact God cannot program you instinctively to Agape/Love, since Agape/Love is not robotic.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Yes, God did program everyone to be disobedient in addition to lying about it, which of course is part of the program that people robotically run. Jer. 17:9

Click to expand...

The sin is all on us since we start out lacking Godly type Love, but God will not force His Love on us, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, since receiving a love that way would not be a Godly type Love.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

And after they are saved, the fact that God bound us to disobedience doesn't change. Only our ability to see the fact of it as being from our adversary, not ourselves changes.

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Click to expand...

All mature adults sin (are disobedient) but that is on us and not God, who offers a way out, with Godly type Love, easily humbly accepted by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness. He that is forgiven much Loves much!!!(Luke 7)

Jeff Saunders said:

but he just couldn't figure out how program humans so that they would love him?

Click to expand...

In the prior age, he created paradise, the angels, etc and everyone sang and jumped for joy. And then Satan and his angels rebelled. And then God created this age, humans, etc. Satan plays a major part in this. He did at the beginning and he will at the end. God's even going to give Satan chances once again to deceive now the human race. Why do you think that is if all God wants to do is program someone to love him? Why is Satan getting this chance? That's really food for thought on other topics that one needs to really dive in instead of staying in place with just this one.

Also if God wanted to program people to love him common sense alone tells us we wouldn't even be here at this moment. We would be with him right now. But no, he's long suffering wanting everyone to come to repentance.

Jeff Saunders said:

Sorry to inform you that "hell" is no place to be found in scripture, especially an eternal torture chamber, that is pure pagan garbage to make Yahweh look like a monster. There is a place of judgement, but it is for refining all that is not of God from his beloved creation, not to torture them and keep them alive forever.

Click to expand...

Hell was made for Satan and His demons, while God had in the cross of Christ provided the means to save lost sinners, when they reject that grace, they are choosing Hell, and God tells them "thy will now is done"