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Are All the Answers in the Bible? Does Your Pastor Know All the Answers? Here's a Pope Who Doesn't
- Thread starter Fantine
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
Sorry to hear about your friend.
But I'm beginning to have doubts with the Christian doctrine (not to mistake this as disbelief of God nor losing faith in the Lord).
If something great happens - "the Lord's favor is upon you" or "it's a miracle!". If something horrific happens to you - "it must be for a grand purpose - what devil meant for evil, the Lord meant for good". If nothing happens for a very long time - "the Lord's timing is perfect or He's teaching you patience". If you died - "you'd be in a better place".
Are those logic even Biblical or correctly interpreted from Biblical passages?
All those things could have happened without an immortal being pulling strings unseen. Anyone who has ever played video games that simulate reality or fantastical realities / alternate realities would realize it's all due to cause and effect.
Is it possible that Christianity held civilization back for a thousand years? Because we tend to assign things to fate than act or actually do good for other people or for the "greater good"
It's like the Good Samaritan who jumps into action with only few words vs someone delivering lengthy prayers but does not move a muscle to help another. Jesus did not discounted "cause and effect", you can make things happen out of your own strength, your own resources.
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trophy33
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Christianity, missionaries and Christian charity was actually the only acting "theology" pushing the civilization forward, dynamically. Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam are all much more fatalistic and smaller pagan religions were too primitive.
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
Perhaps, what you actually meant to say is resisting progress the least.
There used to be a time when Christian religion held way more authority that it became a hindrance to the advancement of scientific knowledge like the times it believed the Earth is the center of the Universe.
In present times, it leads people to accept the status quo or accept the situation like it's going to fix itself. Things could eventually fix itself but could have been sooner if people acted with more lives saved.
Ironically, in countries that have managed to mostly eliminate poverty (poverty only remaining with non-resident immigrants), they were also the least religious in the world.
China is following suit and is likely to overtake (if not already) Western nations in technological and scientific advancement.
In my scriptural research, Jesus encouraged science if the culture is accepting of it. The 12 disciples are not the only people who told their story of their walk with Jesus. The list is way bigger. The Bible Canon is just the list of scriptures who the Church determined likely to be the most genuine but other scriptures did exist.
But given the Church is historically proven to be very capable of making catastrophic mistakes and Jesus in any of His accounts did not promise a book that is guaranteed never to be mistaken. We really have nothing. I'm sorry to say this. The only thing Jesus promised is the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and "discovering the light in all creation" which is basically what we now refer to as "quantum mechanics". We are basically made of light (photons) quite literally. It was scientists / mathematicians who discovered it who may not be Christians and some where atheists, agnostics.
I'm not giving up on the spiritual reality. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact. There are many things happening in me definitely in the realm of supernatural. One of them really freaks people out.
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trophy33
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No, bringing progress. Schools, hospitals, trading, exchange of inventions. Even colonialism, with all the evils, brought some development to the world, globally - connecting various areas which were isolated before. Also, the Christian scholasticism and worldview brought the scientific thinking, the desire to invent something, to discover something new.
After the fall of the Western Roman empire, it was Christianity that brought some culture and civilization again, to desolate lands (namely priests and monks from Ireland). Basic skills like writing, reading, road building...
A similar situation repeated after the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.
But also throughout history, for example the arrival of Cyril and Methodius in Great Moravia in the year 863 - creating alphabet and bringing general literacy to Slavic nations.
Importantly, there were also radical social changes - the idea that everybody, both king and the last peasant or slave are equal before God. This was nonexistent elsewhere in the world.
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trophy33
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Well, Christian does not need an organized religion, if he is able to keep himself on the right path. The risk is mostly in the fact that an individual can err easier than a billion of people. Mutual correction, debates, discussions keep extremes or nonsense out and bring progress. Not always, but more effectively than if you lived on your own island.
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
Some development...... Some progress..... It could have been faster. Way faster. Scientific establishments have the marks of organized religion. I'm not saying science is a religion for that is an oxymoron. But observing similarities like the laws of science as to Christian doctrines or Creed.
Regarding these things as unbreakable, in complete disregard of future discoveries or the possibility of our predecessors making catastrophic mistakes from lack of key information simply due to limited knowledge available in the centuries past. Slows progress down because we stop looking deeper.
The influence from religion is strong and sadly, it only took the negative parts.
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trophy33
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It was the fastest in the world, that is why the small Europe overpowered the whole world one millennia after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
While the rest of the world made basically no progress and the empires looked still the same like the empires 5,000 years ago (literally using still the same swords or bows), Europe was bursting with ideas, inventions, philosophies, social changes.
We can say "it could be much faster", but it is quite a fictional opinion, because we have no real example of it being much faster. We must also take into consideration that the development is not linear. One invention makes another one faster. If you are in the stage that people cannot even write and read, it simply goes slowly to get to the nuclear energy or to the AI stage. But it accelerates in time.
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
What I do know is we waste a ton of time and resources indulging ourselves in many things.
This behavior is strongly influenced by false beliefs in popular religions in the world. People will find justification to indulge and they find it in religion.
Their inventions were primarily driven by greed for land, power, and riches which many found justification in the Christian religion. Right now, only a small% of the world's population have access to advanced medical tech due to the high cost.
It has also thrown the world's ecosystems into chaos. One step forward, two steps back.
At present, the most progressive countries in Europe are also the least religious.
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trophy33
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Resources are needed. The more we develop, the more resources we consume. The AI technology consumes the energy of several nuclear plants. Hunters and gatherers needed just a spear and some primitive knife.
Greed existed all over the world. So, it is not the answer why Europe.
Maybe, but "at present" is not even a blip on radar regarding history. And being "the most progressive" does not mean the best. Many new things or ideas are not the right direction. Only time will tell what will last. Who really cares or even remembers today what was "in" in 90's or early 2000'?
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
Except that substantial AI resources are instead being used to support many useless content on the internet, generating fake content, and even denying free speech. Helping to reward people for wasting other people's time with useless content.
That isn't progress to me but simply wasting huge amounts of energy and materials doing absolutely nothing useful.
I'm sure AI resources are also being used on scientific research and other useful things but the rest is only being used to waste tons of energy, turning people's minds into garbage.
Europe used to be the greediest and the most devious.
But now, the greed of other races are now overtaking European greed this is why immigrants are taking over.
Greed is evil though. I wouldn't call progress what comes out of it. Destruction isn't progress, it's doing the devil's work.
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trophy33
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Maybe, but it is still true that a more developed society consumes more resources.
I dont think so. Europe just had technology to magnify both evil and good. But evil hearts have been all over the world. Evil people elsewhere just did not have the means to manifest it on the same geographical extend. Maybe just in their village, but the evil is the same. They also did not have means to manifest the good on the same level.
I still think that the human greed is similar everywhere. In various times the greed of this or that "race" just gets more visible because of the situation, means etc.
I agree that greed is evil. But it actually may produce some progress. Even wars historically produced significant technological or social progress. And for example companies develop their products or services because they want higher gains from selling it. It seems to me that regulated capitalism, combined with social welfare democracy, is the sweet spot.
Also, greed is frequently misunderstood or misapplied. Somebody from a very poor environment may call somebody living in a highly development greedy, because the latter one produces more, consumes more and needs more. However, the "greedy one" can actually be struggling economically, in his developed environment. Even though it looks like his consumption would feed several families in a poor part of the world.
If somebody in Phillippines in some poor village wanted to have income of an average New Yorker, he would be greedy from the point of view of his environment, because it could feed the whole village. But a person in New York might be able to afford only some cheap renting, food and other necessities and save nothing each month, with the same amount of money. Would he be greedy if he even wanted a raise to have a better quality of life and to create some savings?
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
It's not greedy to work towards a higher income if you're making an honest living working for morally upright employers or running an honest business.
The consequences are not made until you spend that income and Jesus already told us where to spend that income.
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trophy33
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Well, Jesus did not live in social welfare state, I think. After the WW2, many countries, namely in Europe, decided to implement automatic payments to eliminate the existential poverty.
What we are left with (the net salary) is already after helping the poor, but still not after all taxes (for example VAT 21% after every purchase in a shop is another one...).
I guess it is complicated and highly individual. There is hardly one rule for all. Some people need to save for their old age, some do not need to, some people have lower cash inflow but own a house, some people have higher income but no house of their own (so who is richer? who should give more to the poor?), somebody has children, somebody has old parents etc. In the end, it is on everybody's own conscience and wisdom, what he can afford to give or what he needs to save or invest.
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com7fy8
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Yes, there is God so good and all-loving. And yes there are horrible things that happen.
I think of how Job had such a hard time. But Jesus did not give Job an explanation. Rather, Jesus asked the questions. Job needed to answer to God!
Instead of getting God to answer to him, it helped Job to humble himself and answer to God.
I think of how Job had such a hard time. But Jesus did not give Job an explanation. Rather, Jesus asked the questions. Job needed to answer to God!
Instead of getting God to answer to him, it helped Job to humble himself and answer to God.
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
EU did well with social welfare to practically eliminate poverty (with the exception of immigrants, it's understandable, they're unable to help everyone). Sadly, EU is the minority. Most of the world would rather have poverty around them in order to pay smaller taxes.
It seems we don't have to follow some of the rules if it's too difficult. The rules are the same for everyone. We simply can't do all of them (although we should try our best and ask God for strength to do them).
John 12:47-48
“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Just be humble and be "broken" over the fact, we're unable to do some of the things He wants us to do. Many Christians don't do it. They'd rather hear false teachings that makes you take pride in worldly status or means.
This part applies to the OP since he talked about a difficult command in his OP.
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trophy33
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Interestingly, this is again based on the European Christianity. Namely Christian and Social Democracy:
Christian democracy - Wikipedia
It seems that Christianity and Christian morals have been given Europe the edge throughout history.
I am not talking about difficulties, but about different life situations. There is no one rule for all, because somebody pays social insurance, somebody does not. Somebody has a family, somebody does not. Somebody inherited a house, somebody did not. Somebody needs to save/invest for an old age, somebody will be paid by the state.
That is why there is no one rule about money for everyone. We must use wisdom in our individual situation. Love and about helping the poor are rather general concepts than specific instructions how to do it exactly or with what amount of money every month.
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timewerx
the village i--o--t--
The 20th century social reforms in Europe coincided with Christianity's steepest decline in Europe.Interestingly, this is again based on the European Christianity. Namely Christian and Social Democracy:
Christian democracy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It seems that Christianity and Christian morals have been given Europe the edge throughout history.
Decline Of Christianity In Europe Since 1675 - The Witness
The Witness: The decline of Christianity in Europe since 1675 is a complex and multifaceted issue that has its roots in historical, social, and cultural
thewitness.org
Today, the most socialized countries in the world with the lowest poverty rates are also the least religious.
Least Religious Countries 2025
Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.
Canada, EU members, Japan (the grays probably meant no data available)
Ironically, these concerns were addressed in the Bible. If you have spare resources, give to those who have none. If your wealth is tied up in an expensive mortgage, Biblical wisdom would advice to sell it and buy another house that is cheaper so you'll have something to give.
If you have a family...... "Hate" them. I think Jesus meant here is don't regard your family of higher importance than Godly work.
Seeking to have a long and comfortable life? Don't (Mark 8:35, Matt 10:39, John 12:25).
Lose your life for His sake or hate your life for His sake and you will keep it forever.
Not many Christians live by those wisdom but instead follow worldly wisdom.
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trophy33
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But it is not causality. The EU is not a social welfare block because people are not religious like they were before. The whole EU as such and its social policies are formed on Christian Democracy, though. And you would not have Christian democracy without Christianity.
You need regulated capitalism, social welfare and Christian democracy to mimic the success of the EU.
If you aim to stay poor because you think it is the teaching of the NT, you cannot help others, you do not push the economy forward, you do not create a stable environment for the success of your family and your taxes do not pay for healthcare or benefits of old or misfortuned people. And you do not create employment by spending your money. It is not a virtue.
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