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What do you say to anti-theists on the formation of the universe?

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jasperr

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It's almost like the various life forms evolved as opposed to being designed, isn't it...

The biggest puzzle regarding evolution is why it took so long before it was understood as the process that gives us the variety.
That is also my view (the evolution part,that is - the design part seems far fetched and of no real consequence one way or the other)

Why is that a puzzle though?Everything has its time and so did that understanding and interpretation then.

The greater puzzle is why people rail against greater understanding and twist themselves into knots into defending the ridiculous.

But then the human mind is notoriously unreliable (I am sure we all have had friends and acquaintances whose connection with reality is cut)
 
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AV1611VET

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So it wasn't God ordering the massacre of children? Ah, but they were...demon seeds or something. I'm only here for a reasonable discussion. I'm not finding one in this thread.

Bradskii, I don't think you realize this wasn't done in a vacuum.

These people who lost their children to divine command had warning after warning after warning to vacate the area.

In fact, God kept the Israelites confined to Egypt for 430 years to give them time to vacate.

They were squatters -- squatters on land promised to Israel; and were taking a stand-your-ground stance.

How would you feel if you took vacation for 430 days, only to come home and find squatters in your house, saying, "Go ahead. Make my day"?
 
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trophy33

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They were squatters -- squatters on land promised to Israel; and were taking a stand-your-ground stance.

How would you feel if you took vacation for 430 days, only to come home and find squatters in your house, saying, "Go ahead. Make my day"?
This example does not work, because you suppose that both the "squatters" and the rightful owner live in the common legal system that clearly defines who is the owner and who is not.
 
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BCP1928

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This is a no. Denied. I won't accept telemarketing materials via forum post. Come on man, seriously though. That doesn't negative the potential for a designer. To design something foolishly would be well...



I'll accept that as a reasonable assumption even though you don't know my level of knowledge on the subject. It was at least an attempt. A for effort.



Repetition rather than resolution. I don't want to call it an excuse, but I find it hard to avoid.

You essentially said "you get what you get."

There is absolutely zero logical reason (apart from mental direction of course) for nearly no instances of creatures with odd numbers of anything, including eyes(cameras), ears(microphones), legs. For things to be nearly perfectly symmetrical "just because" simply does not equate. This is a principle of mathematics and probabilities, and I find it telling there are no unhappy accidents.

I'll simply conclude by saying, the answer "you don't know enough," is rather disappointing.
A trait cannot evolve unless it exhibits random reproductive variation. At some time back in the past--the Cambrian Explosion or before--when critters were stll kind of gooshy, there was indeed reproductive variation in the number of limbs and body plans. When optimums for various environments were achieved, they became stable, and gradually reproductive variation of those traits ceased.
 
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AV1611VET

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This example does not work,

Why?

... because you suppose that both the "squatters" and the rightful owner live in the common legal system that clearly defines who is the owner and who is not.

That is correct.

One has to go.

And according to the Abrahamic Covenant, we know which one it is, don't we?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The rank and file had no command. It was Saul. I thought you'd need a direct order from God. Apparently not.

I'm not sure that that statement instills a lot of confidence in your standards of morality. Highlighted for clarity. So you're not saying that torturing children is wrong. But having a vote on it? What? That's...that's...simply unacceptable!

So if he'd told you to vote yes then you would have. Let's hope He doesn't tell you to fly a plane into a building, shall we..?

Incidently, if someone comes to your place and massacres your family and he says 'God told me to do it', how do you know he's mistaken? Which actually means: How do we know you are mistaken when he tells you to kill the children. When what I really mean is: How on earth do you know when you are mistaken'?

It seems, horrifyingly enough, that there are no guard rails. That there will be no 'Hang on, that can't be right' moment. You've already told us you'd massacre children so a kid on an island or a family is no problem.

There are guard rails, but they're only evident to those who don't reject out of hand the study of Historiography, Hermeneutics, Biblical Exegesis, Ethics and/or the philosophical limits of the Modern Human Rights paradigm.

But I know----asking others, whether they be Christian or Atheist, to engage in academic studies that don't appeal to their emotions or to their a priori political positions is a lot to ask these days.
 
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trophy33

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Just continue reading the sentence, it is nonsensical to react before you finished it.
And according to the Abrahamic Covenant, we know which one it is, don't we?
Do you have a proof that this Abrahamic Covenant was some common law or even known to all people in Mesopotamia? The book of Genesis which mentions it for the first time was written in the 8th century BC in Babylonia, while the supposed conquering of the promised land took place in around 1400 BC.
 
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Zceptre

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And yet, ironically, here you are claiming to be able to read his mind!

However, you miss the point. In a discussion, participants may comment upon any point raised, by any participant, including speculating (implicitly or explicitly) on what other participants intended, or developing a more detailed response given by any participant. This is readily accepted by the adults in that discussion. One leans to the view that someone ignoring these accepted "rules of engagement" is either not an adult, or is being discourteous.
No, you miss the point, but here's a short clear up.

I reserve the right to only respond to people who speak for themselves. It's impolite, it's rude, and the man can easily agree with and yet stand on his own feet and there is no need to assert what they "think" other people are thinking. I have no problem replying to a person's requests if they are reasonable.

There are a host of posts I didn't respond to, and I forfeited doing so here simply because the person was leaning on others rather than standing on his own feet. Why not make the point his own?

I have signed no "rules of engagement" and I've been in forums for nearly 20 years. I'm not a forum junky, I refuse to bow to stereotypes, I don't care for trolling, rude demands, and I especially despise having to address a situation that seems clearly silly and has nothing to do with the OP. I'm not the subject matter of this thread.

There will be no responses to those demands made, the trolling I will not acknowledge, and if anyone is offended because I didn't respond, I guess they will have to learn to cope.

I hope people don't think it is ok to suggest they can speak on my behalf for example, because it isn't. They don't know what I think, and I believe moderation would be needed if they start telling everyone I "said things" that I did not say or stating my beliefs for me without my request.

The man didn't say, what he was asserted as saying. If he had made mention of the request and said "but I quite do feel that way, and would like to hear the rebuttal," well I would have responded.

As it stands, if I have done something against the forum policy (and I don't think I have...), then I am well within reasonable and I will continue to reserve the right to speak to people who seem to be respectful.

I despise a good deal of what Bradskii has said, but he is more respectful and professional in his response than others and certainly hasn't trolled me.

But this... this that I'm feeling a need to reply to right now, this is trolling. I already told another person I don't take kindly to it.

If people want me to listen to them, and respond, they can be polite, speak for themselves, and refrain from trolling.

This will be the last of my responses to you. If you have complaints, you can mention me to the community, but I will not listen to it. I'm not required to speak to anyone, I live in a free country and am only slave to Christ Jesus.

Like I told the last guy who trolled me, I wish you well on your journey sir.
 
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Zceptre

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A trait cannot evolve unless it exhibits random reproductive variation. At some time back in the past--the Cambrian Explosion or before--when critters were stll kind of gooshy, there was indeed reproductive variation in the number of limbs and body plans. When optimums for various environments were achieved, they became stable, and gradually reproductive variation of those traits ceased.

I'll accept that, in my personal opinion, as a reasonable statement. While I disagree with the premise itself, this at least offers a reasonable attempt at explanation.

To dig too deep into that might be a thread derail and a very lengthy one at that. We'll have to agree to disagree but I'll admit the refutation would require more extensive work since the posture is challenging. (I can't flat out say no, and reject your additional sources because the conversation became exhaustive in nature.)

Alas, I also told him "no" just to push his buttons a bit. If the conversation hadn't gotten quite so extensive, I may have obliged without making fun and read the extra literature. The hole simply would have been dug deeper though.
 
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BCP1928

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I'll accept that, in my personal opinion, as a reasonable statement. While I disagree with the premise itself, this at least offers a reasonable attempt at explanation.

To dig too deep into that might be a thread derail and a very lengthy one at that. We'll have to agree to disagree but I'll admit the refutation would require more extensive work since the posture is challenging. (I can't flat out say no, and reject your additional sources because the conversation became exhaustive in nature.)

Alas, I also told him "no" just to push his buttons a bit. If the conversation hadn't gotten quite so extensive, I may have obliged without making fun and read the extra literature. The hole simply would have been dug deeper though.
No need to derail the thread--there is a large body of scholarship available to you on the subject. What it boils down to is that the body plan thing is really not a problem for evolution. The same effect reappears throughout the process. In general, if the selective environment remains stable for a long time, the standard deviation of the random distribution gradually decreases.
 
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AV1611VET

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Do you have a proof that this Abrahamic Covenant was some common law or even known to all people in Mesopotamia?

We (including you) have the testimony of Rahab the harlot.

Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.


The book of Genesis which mentions it for the first time was written in the 8th century BC in Babylonia, while the supposed conquering of the promised land took place in around 1400 BC.

Ya ... right. :doh:
 
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BCP1928

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Why?



That is correct.

One has to go.

And according to the Abrahamic Covenant, we know which one it is, don't we?
Irrelevant to the present geopolitical situation. even if you could show that the present state of Israel was the scriptural beneficiary of that covenant.
 
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AV1611VET

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Irrelevant to the present geopolitical situation.

We're talking about the justification behind this passage:

Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Post 411.
 
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Fervent

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But you said...

It wasn't given to the rank and file soldiers. It was only given to Saul. But, as younsaid, if you thought He'd commanded you then you'd do it.
Speaking of my current situation is not the same as the Israelites during the reign of Saul.
It was the original hypothetical.
The original hypothetical involved the torture murder as an end via popular decision. the Divine command alters the hypothetical so that it is inomparable since God is not working with partial knowledge.
So are you assuming that killing the Amelikites was not capricious but flying a plane into a building would be? Ah, so you have an internal debate as to whether you consider it to be a capricious command. You could possibly see a reason for killing the Amelikite children, so would obey the command (if you personally received it) but wouldn't be able to see any benefit in flying the plane into the building. So in that case there would be a 'Hang on, that doesn't seem right' moment.
There's about 400 years of warning that you're ignoring with the Amalekites. And stop putting words in my mouth as I made no comment about the morality of flying a plane into a building. If God commanded it, then so be it.
Do you know what this means? It means that if you think it's justified then it's ok. And if you don't, then it isn't. What was that term we used when people make moral decisions themselves?
Nope, it falls on God whether it is justified or not. My opinion on the matter doesn't change whether its justified or not.
You'd interrogate him? Is this before you allow him in? Well...OK. So following your questions (I can't believe you said that you'd be doing this) what he tells you is that there is no mistaking the command. There's no deciphering the message, or guess work involved. It's clear and unambiguous. It was a clear, distinct, unequivocal message. A direct experience of the divine.
Your hypothetical is nonsensical so I won't entertain it anymore.
I guess that settles it. You have to let him in at that point. Maybe ask if he wants a drink or something until the kids come home.

Just in passing, why didn't you say that you'd interrogate Saul?

The God that commanded the massacre of innocent women and children? That God? What sort of guardrail is it that allows that? What sort of guardrail is it that has you say that you'd participate? If that's acceptable then you'd do anything. The guardrails don't exist.
 
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BCP1928

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We're talking about the justification behind this passage:

Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Post 411.
Too right, I lost track. What was this thread about? What to say to anti-theists on the formation of the universe if you want to strut the superiority of your views over theirs? Yeah, that was it.
 
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Bradskii

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That is also my view (the evolution part,that is - the design part seems far fetched and of no real consequence one way or the other)

Why is that a puzzle though?Everything has its time and so did that understanding and interpretation then.
There was a lot of forehead slapping when Darwin published his work. As in 'Of course! Why didn't I realise that?' It's all pretty obvious when someone actually points it out. It's not like there was a lot of complex science needed to be done. Just simple observation. It was in front of us since...forever.
 
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Bradskii

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There are guard rails...
If you actually admit that you would kill children if you were convinced that God had ordered you to do it, then there are no restrictions on what you would do.
 
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Bradskii

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There's about 400 years of warning that you're ignoring with the Amalekites. And stop putting words in my mouth as I made no comment about the morality of flying a plane into a building.
I don't have to put words in your mouth when you have actually said them yourself:
If He commands it, it is right.
That couldn't be clearer on the morality of the act. Now I'm really not sure if you'd do it or not. But the deciding factor was the fact that you don't see God as being capricious. You seem to have an argument for killing the Amalekites, so you'd do it. You have after all admitted to that. As you said:
If God commanded it, then so be it.
So even if there are no arguments for it, then it's right. There are no guard rails...
Nope, it falls on God whether it is justified or not. My opinion on the matter doesn't change whether its justified or not.
No. It falls on whether you actually believe it is God commanding you. You even have a few tests that you can run through to check that as you did with the guy that came to kill your children. You'd actually interrogate him. And he's actually give him the answers that you'd need to believe him. What you do at that point I really don't know...

But I think we know all we need to know at this point.
 
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Fervent

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I don't have to put words in your mouth when you have actually said them yourself:

That couldn't be clearer on the morality of the act. Now I'm really not sure if you'd do it or not. But the deciding factor was the fact that you don't see God as being capricious. You seem to have an argument for killing the Amalekites, so you'd do it. You have after all admitted to that. As you said:

So even if there are no arguments for it, then it's right. There are no guard rails...
No guard rails needed, since God's nature is guard rail enough.
No. It falls on whether you actually believe it is God commanding you. You even have a few tests that you can run through to check that as you did with the guy that came to kill your children. You'd actually interrogate him. And he's actually give him the answers that you'd need to believe him. What you do at that point I really don't know...
Yes, it comes down to whether I believe God has commanded it. Though in a case liike your absurd hypothetical I'm not going to take a second hand report. Goodness is God's nature, and there is a time and place for everything under the sun. I am not a judge, I am simply a doer of the law as I see it.
But I think we know all we need to know at this point.
That you've appointed yourself judge? That you really don't believe that these things are just matters of personal preference?
 
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Zceptre

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What it boils down to is that the body plan thing is really not a problem for evolution.

I don't doubt that such things could have been possible, but rather that they are plausible. Not to mention the certainty with which the theory is pushed in total absolute conviction and faith indifferent to anything askew of it.

Someone here has a signature about such kinds of certainty I think. Seems odd they are so certain.

Speaking of "plans," whose "plans"? lol
 
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