Predictions About Noth Amrican Protestantism,and the Intellect

*** Warning.
This is a thread about the orientation of different theologies, and some of these
these theologies will not agree with my characterization, as they may claim to have
an ariiention toward the intellect, that is different then what I see. Or, they may
use different definitions of the "intellect" than most American Protestants use....

I THINK THAT IT IS BETTER TO OPENLY DISCUSS THE TOPIC of the Intellect, than to continue
to use different definitions, while everyone supposes that they are talking are talking
the same thing.
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I am NOT talking about words that necessarily have multiple valid disctionary definitions.
Example: There is a difference between the English meaning of dog, the animal, and
"dog" as in a beaten up car.

Example: one must be using the biblical language oa the Bible (Hebrew/Aramaic),
and New Teatament Greek. Trying to do high quality Bible study off some English
translaiton of the Bible is studying A TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE the Bible, AND NOT STUDYING THE
BIBLE.
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(I AM HAVING A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH THE SPPELLING-CHECKER/WORD COMPLETER...
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I will continue this initial thread statement in the next posts....























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Talking about "the intellect" itself is difficult, because many American Christians


do not recognise talking about any "philosophical" subject is a valid thing for Christians


to seriously talk about. What I MEAN, byt "the intellect", is talking about subjects


that we can describe with our mind, and human language. We can even talk about


intellectual topics such as "things we cannot fully comprehend with our mind".





Philosophical topics include:


topics dealing with Epistemology (what is truth?


how do we discern truth? How do we discern truth, from merely personal


opinion?)


Moral Theory (what do people think is "right and wrong", AND how SHOULD


Christians formulate their personal moral theory, to make it compatible with


Core principle teachings?


A view of our (Christian) WORLDVIEW), WHICH COVERS (potentially) all


Areas our Christian life)


The parts of our Christian worldview that CANNOT deviate from our core


Christian doctrines, snd those parts that are NOT core Christian doctrine,


And those that are NOT addressed by core Christian doctrines.


————— —————





NOTE: I assert that a Christian worldview MUST include core Christian doctrines,


But is not required to include what specific individual view on what non-required


understandings of what some specific theology defines as a CORE Chritian


Doctrine (else we would have nothing to discuss!). Not that WE USE what we consider


To be core Christian doctrines, and our understanding of them, to FILTER HOW


WE HANDLE OTHER UNDERSTANDINGS OF OUR READING OF OUR


TRNSLATION OF SCRIPTURE, even though these “filters” we use may or may not


Themselves result from good critical Bible study. I would ask that you be open toward


Discussions doubt HOW WE FORMULATE THESE (INTELLECTUAL) filters that we


Use in the way we do our interpretation of scripture. And doesn't like the way I reak up paragraphs. )

(The immediate trigger for this thread, i the president's row with Harvard University,
and his threat to cut off all federal aid to the university, IF they do not stop teaching course material
(or allow campus activity dealing with topics that the president does not want them to deal with).

This brings up the topics that (I think) deal with the intellect,
how insitutions that are supposed to be disciplines for the intellect,
what optics are allowable to be taught, about the intellect,
which topics are considered to be "intellectual",
what topics are allowable to be funded at an intitution that claims to
be teaching "intellectual" topic,
what topics are considered to be global intellectual topics, even though
they may also be religious topics,
if they are also religious topics, who defines whether they are religious
topics, or not, and if they claim to be "Christian", then what is the
historic evidence that thedefinition of these topics ARE historic definitions,
and if the definitions used are NOT historic definitions, they what is the
authority that is asserted to uphold using the definitions used?

I think that you can see that there are MANY topics that are used, in the surface
language of discussions on this philosophical (Christian) threads, that are
very heavily connected with the topic of "the intellect", but are not carefully
defined, and need to be. I welcome opinions of readers, about any of these
topics.
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Going to the next post, to start the discussion.

About fallacies on the intellect...

(Whether or not you think that these are FALLACIES, please consider them as different ways of
thinking about the topic of OUR SHARED REALITY. It is often the case that if an individual
Christian's belief that one or more of these positions is true, or compable with orthodox
Christian beliefs, that you will find some or many of the positions are INCOMPATIBLE
with Christian orthodox doctrines....)
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Position #1

Someone asserts that "I believe whatever the Bible teaches", this is a complete punt, on the
question. This could include ANY person's idea of what a Christian "worldview" could be,
and doesnot answer the question. It is an non-answer.

NOTE: I appeal a lot to the idea of a "Christian worldview." In my lingo, this refers to a
collection of beliefs that a person or group has, that describes what that person of group
accepts as a way to encapsulate a number of specific definitions and views on a groups of
topics, that describe how that person looks at the world around us. Some collection of beliefs
(worldviews) are compatible with Christian beliefs, and SOME ARE NOT). Some worldviews
that people describe as "Christian", are not.

As example: some people descirbe their "worldview" as Realist", which still is not detailed,
but does assert that we live in a shared reality, and denies that we all live in our individual
reality (that is reality if whatever we (individually) live in our own reality. Of course, this is
incompatible with the orthodox belief that we all live under global moral-ethical constraints,
and will be judged by that Great Judge, under these global moral-ethcal constraints at
the fnal judgment....

Position #2
All reality is completely dependent on what an individual PERCEIVES as reality. There are so many
problems with this worldview, that are not compatible with Christianity, that I assert that no one
can reaonably assert that this worldview is compatible with Christianity.

In a number of places in Scripture, the Bible asserts that it is the responibility of the disciple to
"be careful, how you hear." This asserts that our shared reality CAN BE MISPERCEIVED, AND THE
GREAT JUDGE ON THE FINAL JUDGMENT DAY WILL NOT BE PARTICULARLY LENIENT
to those who are not paying attention to the world around us, and to how they perceive.

Positions #3
The Bible does not IMPLY a Christian worldview. At least, not in a simplistic way.

If a disciple wishes to pay attention to our shared reality, (and this
includes applying the mind, to what we perceive), THEN

Although the Bible does not imply a detailed worldview, it does imply a
certain worldview that we live in a share reality that is a perceived
worldview that CAN BE accessible, but that can also be ignored. But that
shared reality is not obvios in the way in which some people and theology
require that it IS obvious and clear and does not require that requires of the
disciple that they must be paying attention. (I assert) that paying attention is a
required application of the mind/intellectect THAT IS A REQUIREMENT.

There are other strong teachings in Scripture (about certain knowlege and wisdom),
in the Old Testament and the New, that, in gaining knowledge and wisdom,
we need to start doing this when young, and persist at it, or else we may end up
losing it all due to apathy and persistancy in this activity). Jesus explicitly repeats
this in his New Testament teaching.

Problem #4
Critical Bible study skills have taken a huge dive, along with reading and
critical think skills, across ALL of the younger generations in America, that is,
both among the younger Crhsitians an non-Christian generation.

It is a FALLACY, I assert, that gaining and using critical Bible study skills
can be pursued starting at retirement age.

It is a fallacy, I assert, that God meant us to pursue intellectual study, ONLY
when we get old enough to "have some time to pursue hobbies".

It is a fallacy, I assert, that God calls only some of us to pursue the
devlopment of our mind. Rather, I assert that it is NORMAL for a Christian
to pursue knowlege and wisdom all of our life. This is one reason why I
assert that this responsibility to gain knowlege ad wisdom off on the Holy
Spirit, to ONLY inspire some Christians to pursue knowlege and wisdom on
Older Christians who may find it easier to pursue them. Or, on ONLY some
Christians.

Problem #5

I assert that North American Christians have not quite grasped what the lists
of virtues (and vices) mean in Scriptures mean.

I think that many NA Christians do not realize that self-control, and being
able to PAY ATTENTION, and setting out a plan for life-long learning, boil
down to behavior that is all the same thing. Christians who do not recognize this,
will be making the mistake of NOT recognizing a basic Christian VIRTUE. (Try
arguing to one of the generations of "electronic screen generations", that
being g addicted to hours and hours of surfing the internet, falls under the
general category of NOT having the virtue of self-control....)

There are MANY more individual beliefs that OUGHT TO BE in a Christian's
worldview.

Perhaps you can think about many more....

Sorry for the seemingly "open" approach that I am taking for this thread.
I appreciate the comments of the Church Fathers.

I am am approaching a number of topics through the the loose structure
of a "worldview", byt not really a formal philoosphical one. I am using worldview
a bit more life Neubuhr in his book :


But my interest is more the approach from philosophical worldviews, with regard
to Moral Theory. And my interest is in discussing how different Christian theologies tend to
see the authority structurees in their life (such as Scripture, the congregtional
culture, American secular culture, and the intellectual life).

That is, my interest is to try to engage with the current American "weirdnesses" that
I see the Church going through (although maybe the 3 younger Christian generations
may not see enough of a bigger horizon of American history, to recognize these
years as a truly weird time in American history).

(Sorry for all the typos and strange word substitutions -- I have just changed states, and the
FN "spell checker" doesn't seem to be aware of much of the theological vocablulary that
I was previously using on this site.)

Hopefully, someone will be interested in discussing the modern Christian's
approach to the intellectual life (this is what I am pointing toward, when
I use the wording "intellectual life"), without the politics attached (I AM NOT
interesteste in discussing potlitics, except where these subjects cross
elephant tracks).

I am curious how different families, and congregations approach the intellect and
intelectual activities, which I think, reflects a lot of Christians' approach to the intellect,
in general.

For example...

what books are you reading?
do you read at all?
what kind of education do you think your kids should get?
what are the Bible study tool that you use?
what is your approach to the big Escreen?
how does your congregation think its young people will do, competing in the
so-calledAI revolution? ( I have a M.S. in AI in Computer Science)
what does your congregation think are the intellectual tools that its members
should be getting familiar with for apologetics?
what sort of books/tool OUGHT TO BE written to boost spiritual life in the
People of God?


As you can see, these subjects are what I am referring to, under the net of
"Christian worldview". And my interest is in discussing the modern American
Christian approach to these subjects.

Assertion:

IF Christians say that the Intellect matters, then it seems that
they need to deal with the basic topid of our shareedg reality. (Forgive
me from starting with philosophical basics. I don't think that Christians
can get aroung this building block, even if they want they want to leap
ahead to talk about much larger constructs than "worldviews."

So, as a Christian, I will put forward (so that readers know) what my approach
to what our shared reality, is.
========== ==========

It seems to me that, if we want to talk about something that is "our shared reality",
then we have to make some logical choices that are forks in logical roads, to get to that place.

(I am approaching this discussion as if it were a conversation with someone we met,
who is willing to talk about "logic" and "reality". I assert that this has to be done, even
before we agree on what the definition of these things are. Only after that, can we
have a foundation of talking about what the definition of these things are. Note that
I am not interested in taking all historical historical approach to the topic, although

YOU may be. And feel free to comment on the topic from any point of view that you wish.

Discussion is welcomed.)
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(Using simple reference numbers here, to point to rext I am referring to.)

1 It seems to me, that that if we want talk about ANYTHING, then we need to
Have some central, accessible ground of reasoning about that thing.

2 It seems to me that, if we want to talk about ANYTHING, then we need to
to have some sort of access to that “language” with which we are going to
discuss the topic.

3 If the ground of reasoning, and the vocabulary are not SHARED, then I don’t
Know how we can TALK about anything. (Feel free to disagree with this.)

Just as in encryption, we need a central “thing” that we want to transmit, we also need a common language” to express what we are trying to encrpt.

I AM USING VERY GENERAL AND NON-TECHNICAL LANGUAGE HERE - please cut me some slack.
————— —————

From the example above, I would suggest that that OUR SHARED REALITY is the message

that we are trying to communicate. I would suggest that the common language that we are using is (you could use a number of technical languages, including different human languages), but there seems to be a need for a standard way in which this language is organized. It is this ORGANIZATION, that (I suggest) logic/the intellect offers).

4 The LOGIC that organizes our communication language, is what makes it WORK.
5 Work at what???? At describing and thinking about our shared reality.

And why does this logic seem to work???
Because our shared reality seems to be consistent, and
This LOGIC WORKS.

com7fy8 said:

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
. And lean not on your own understanding."
. In all your ways acknowledge Him,
. And He shall direct your paths."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Proverbs 3:5-6)

So, we need to humble our intellectual life and ability, and first trust God to guide our attention. And He can use our intellect however He pleases.

And as we grow in Jesus, likely our intellectual stuff will become out-of-date. So, take it with a grain of salt.

The Bible is our basic, for intellectual stuff and for apologetics and for boosting our spiritual life.

But there needs to be discovering with God, Himself, in us developing us and showing things to us. And have mature Christians as our examples and helpers.

It matters to humble it. Because God's ability is so more than all we might be able to do with intellect human.

Logic can have problems, if you are lacking certain facts which your intellect needs to consider.

Our intellect is like a very highly developed computer > if you are calculating something very advanced, but leave out, or put in one wrong, number, that highly capable computer could give you a highly wrong answer.

And reality can be a problem . . . if we are limited in our ability to perceive it.

We need to grow in Jesus so we have His reliable ability to find facts and perceive reality correctly.

What we share can be limited to how we all are now. We always have God to bring us and grow us to more and better. And depend on God to know and do what He wants. And enjoy sharing with each other, and help each other by our prayer and sharing God's word and our example of how to be and how to love . . . like Jesus growing in each of us.

In the Bible the words often are talking about realities, not developing some intellectual idea. And so, actually experiencing what God's word is talking about is going to help us to understand what He is talking about. It is like how I could write millions of books about the harbor of my town, but unless you experience the harbor, you don't know what I am talking about, to some extent.

Click to expand...

com7fya

I do not wish to offend you...

but you could say what you have said about the intellect, could be said about almost any other
human resource or gift. Your answer is not an answer at all -- it is just a slogan that
people who have not thought about what the intellect is, throw around to try to
fit religious slogans into their online conversations.

And about "our shared reality", as I will get into, everything that all the commentors
on this forum write, becomes part of our shared reality.

If you stick around a bit, you will find out what I think our shared reality is, and
how it relates to the human intellectct, and why Christians should carefully
develop their intellect through their life. And hopefully, a lot of other people
will feel free enough to share their ides on the same topics.

The Intellect: Why it is Important for Christians to Talk About It

(c) June 3rd, 2025
Stephen Wuest

My basic line of reasoning, to enter a discussion on the topic of the Intellect, and how

Christians ought to regard it, is (in rough pseudocode)…

10 We are human beings
11 Human beings have an intellect (what roughly, we should call an “intellect”),
12 This intellect forms a great deal of what the ancient Jews would call “the image of God”
(although modern Evangelicals see to miss this historical definition)

13 This “intellect” correlates with what the New Testament Greek calls the “heart/mind”,
And so in very important part of Christian theology

14 The intellect has attributes, and (you could argue) is heavily connected with our human
Physical body, SO our intellect is part of our shared reality, just as my body is, and your body,
And all sorts of other things.

THEREFORE, it is important for Christians to talk about the Intellect (of human beings).

bèlla said:

Christians are not a monolith. A close reading of the new testament makes this clear. Christ had twelve disciples but none wrote as prolifically as Paul. He possessed the knowledge and experience to convey the scripture to the gentiles in a manner the others lacked. Hence his assignment.

We aren’t required to discuss philosophy to follow the Lord and live according to His precepts. Some believers enjoy the subject and welcome the discourse. But those who don’t aren’t less informed. Expositions on intellectual subjects aren’t one and the same as a relationship with God or a healthy prayer life. We weren’t called to be scholars. We were told to make disciples.

It’s important to recognize the breadth of the Lord’s approach and how He guides His children. Some are led to intellectual pursuits. Others are drawn to service, creativity and so on. Our walk will rarely mirror another’s and that’s intentional. How can we reach the world if we don’t reflect its diversity within our ranks?

Enjoy your passion but don’t lay it on others. Those who feel the same will follow suit.

~bella

Click to expand...

I agree.

But... I run into Christians who hold to philosophical models that are
incompatible with Christian core doctrines. And that is more what I hope the thread
can get at discussing.

I definitley DON'T want to get into discussing politics. But, for some politicians,
for example, to reject all fact-checking of their stump speeches, for example, is
taking a philosphical stand on the nature of truth and reality, that is incompatible
with Christianity. That is like a Christian saying that they care very much what the
meaning of a biblical text is, but then rejecting that ANYONE (even the best biblical
scholars) cannot figure out what any text of the Bible means.

Although THAT would be a doctrinal stand (which is false), it is also a basic
philosophical position that is incompatible with the nature of truth that the
Bible presents to us.

(By the way, the direction that I am nudging is that ...

we live in a shared reality...
our perceptions of this reality is "good enough" to reflect this shared reality...
the Bible presents methods of verifying whether or not our opinions are
TRUE or accurate...
(although many Christians may not be interested in thinking about philosophical
models of truth or reasoning methods, many Christians are... certainly
Christians scholars should be...)

Culture, as a whole, (I assert) is abandoning the rigorous testing of personal
opinions, and this is leading to a shift of American culture with regard to how
it views truth and verification of truth, with the intellect...

AND, if you accept these very basic foundational truths,
THEN Christian apologists are going to have a harder and harder time
trying to use sound logic, and undermine invalid and unsound
arguments, when arguing for the truth of the Christian faith.)


I am not doing any impolite pushing about whether or not a Christian
should be interested in developping their intellectual skills.

But I am raising the question of how Christian apologists are to
going to to try to defend the faith, as America seems to progressively throw
away the public use of valid and sound logic. This question, really bothers
me.)

Gregory Thompson said:

Philosophy is nice, but how to apply it?

Billy and Sue attend church every week because it makes them feel more connected to God.

After reading the bible, they realize they should always be connected.

Since Billy and Sue and Tom & Harry of the same bible study came to this conclusion, but realize the church is not structured in a way to facilitate learning "how to" make this happen.

Is there a practical solution available, or is it just something to make the brain feel happy because it knows something?

I found my answer and am applying it. But a lot of people attending churches really would like a solution to this issue.

Is this something the intellect can solve?

Click to expand...

I would assert that the intellect, at its core, is deductive logic.

Theologians, and apologists use deductive logic all ovr the place.

(I think that our failures to conect here, are because I take "philosophy, as the
very broad love of knowledge and wisdom. All that the Old Testament has to
say about pursuing knowledge and wisdom and insight and craftsmanship,
has to do with philosophy.

All the theology of the Paul, is hinged on the intellect, as it contemplates the
mysteries of God. It was the intellect, used by the Holy Spirit, that kept the
Church out of the Arian heresies, and all the 4th century pseudo-Christian
heresies of the early centuries....)

As for worldviewds, here's an example of a worldview that degrades the hard
sciences and the intellect, can affect the lives of Christians.


I would assert that the intellect, at its core, is deductive logic.

Theologians, and apologists use deductive logic all ovr the place.

(I think that our failures to conect here, are because I take "philosophy, as the
very broad love of knowledge and wisdom. All that the Old Testament has to
say about pursuing knowledge and wisdom and insight and craftsmanship,
has to do with philosophy.

All the theology of the Paul, is hinged on the intellect, as it contemplates the
mysteries of God. It was the intellect, used by the Holy Spirit, that kept the
Church out of the Arian heresies, and all the 4th century pseudo-Christian
heresies of the early centuries....)