Grace

NextLevel · May 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
Does that make him an unloving King or a just King?

Bible 101:
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

Xeno.of.athens · May 19, 2025

RileyG said:
For the record, I agree with the OP. I think "achieve" can be interpreted as "gaining." One cannot "gain" a free gift.

Blessings

Yes, achieve can be interpreted as "gained [by one's own efforts]" but it need not be and that was the point. Grace is not a personal achievement even if it is increased by human goodness.

Xeno.of.athens · May 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
In the NT, justification (declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal) is by faith (Ro 3:28),
which faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3),
and sanctification (holiness) is by obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

Grace is the source from which everyone receives justification which inevitably leads to holiness through sanctification, and since grace is the source no one can claim to have earned it because grace is given and never earned.

Xeno.of.athens · May 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
Where do we have the authoritative word of God not written?

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Psa 19:1 KJV

Creation is where you find the authoritative revelation of God (not word).

Clare73 · May 20, 2025

NextLevel said:
Bible 101:
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

So the King not throwing any life preservers to the army drowning in the moat makes him a just King, not an unloving King.

And therefore, "capriciously saving some people and damning other people brings him glory," both
to his mercy in pardoning his enemies and
to his justice in condemning his enemies.

Clare73 · May 20, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Grace is the source from which everyone receives justification which inevitably leads to holiness through sanctification, and since grace is the source no one can claim to have earned it because grace is given and never earned.

Justification is the result of the gift (Php 1:29) of faith (Ro 3:28).

Hawkins · May 21, 2025

The word "achieve" itself is wague. It is thus a matter of perspectives. It's valid to say that, "Choosing to believe in Jesus is the sole achievement of my life".

Clare73 · May 21, 2025

Hawkins said:
The word "achieve" itself is wague. It is thus a matter of perspectives. It's valid to say that, "Choosing to believe in Jesus is the sole achievement of my life".

No more than it is valid to say, "Choosing to inherit my father's fortune is the sole achievement of my life."

Hawkins · May 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
No more than it is valid to say, "Choosing to inherit my father's fortune is the sole achievement of my life."

It's different. Choosing (by free will) to believe, as a matter of perspective, is a self decision thus involving self effort (as a matter of perspective). Unless you mean to say that we didn't choose to believe but God made us believe, which is quite Calvinism in nature and has been debatable in the past several hundred years.

Though "believe" can be bi-directional like a marriage. You choose your wife while your wife is choosing you. You believe Jesus while He is accepting you.

Clare73 · May 21, 2025

Hawkins said:
It's different. Choosing to believe, as a matter of perspective, is a self decision thus involving self effort (as a matter of perspective).

Not when it comes to believing in Jesus Christ.

That faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) which faith is acquired in no other way.

Hawkins · May 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
Not when it comes to believing in Jesus Christ.

That faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) which faith is acquired in no other way.

I think that you may consider this,
"Though "believe" can be bi-directional like a marriage. You choose your wife while your wife is choosing you. You believe Jesus while He is accepting you."

Instead of we have no choice on believe or not, and thus we have no free will.
The reasoning is straight forward. Do we have free will? If so can we choose to believe Jesus (you mean to say that we can't)?

Clare73 · May 21, 2025

Hawkins said:
I think that you may consider this,
"Though "believe" can be bi-directional like a marriage. You choose your wife while your wife is choosing you. You believe Jesus while He is accepting you."

Instead of we have no choice on believe or not, and thus we have no free will.

Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

Man cannot choose to be sinless, he is only "free" to choose what he prefers. And he does not prefer radical sinlessness.
Nor can man choose to savingly believe. Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Hawkins said:
The reasoning is straight forward.

Straight-forward human "reasoning" does not make it Biblical truth.

Mark Quayle · May 21, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
I suspect that Christians do, but you say that you don't.

If salvation is "achieved", it is not given, and so it is not by grace, not a gift but by works, by the will of man, by effort. This is at the heart of sorcery, believe it or not, where one conjures up a large result by the mechanics of small efforts.

Reminds me of biasing a transistor, where a large current output is controlled by a small current input. It's all mechanical fact, controlled by the will of man. That's not salvation. And not grace.

Mark Quayle · May 21, 2025

NextLevel said:
That should not matter to you as you believe that his fate was capriciously decided on a roll of the dice before the world was created.

Strawman argument.

There is no such thing as random. 'Capricious' is your anthropomorphism produced by humanity's rebellious insistence on self-determinism, at hearing the truth of God's very nature.

Nothing about God is capricious. He created everyone, each person, individually, for the purpose to which he would put them in this life and the next; and this life is part of what it takes to produce the next.

Xeno.of.athens · May 21, 2025

Mark Quayle said:
If salvation is "achieved", it is not given, and so it is not by grace, not a gift but by works, by the will of man, by effort. This is at the heart of sorcery, believe it or not, where one conjures up a large result by the mechanics of small efforts.

Reminds me of biasing a transistor, where a large current output is controlled by a small current input. It's all mechanical fact, controlled by the will of man. That's not salvation. And not grace.

Is hair splitting a favoured pastime with Calvinists?

"Achieved" means successfully reaching or accomplishing a goal, task, or desired outcome through effort, skill, or determination. It's that satisfying moment when something you've worked towards becomes reality. Whether it's finishing a tough project, winning a competition, or simply mastering a new skill, achievement is about making progress and turning aspirations into accomplishments.

NextLevel · May 21, 2025

Mark Quayle said:
Strawman argument.

There is no such thing as random. 'Capricious' is your anthropomorphism produced by humanity's rebellious insistence on self-determinism, at hearing the truth of God's very nature.

Nothing about God is capricious. He created everyone, each person, individually, for the purpose to which he would put them in this life and the next; and this life is part of what it takes to produce the next.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Clare73 · May 21, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Is hair splitting a favoured pastime with Calvinists?

"Achieved" means successfully reaching or accomplishing a goal, task, or desired outcome through effort, skill, or determination.

And that is not the meaning of "gifting," which is how faith is acquired (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Xeno.of.athens said:
It's that satisfying moment when something you've worked towards becomes reality. Whether it's finishing a tough project, winning a competition, or simply mastering a new skill, achievement is about making progress and turning aspirations into accomplishments.

Which has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit's gift of faith (Php 1:29).

Xeno.of.athens · May 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
gifting

no such word.

Clare73 · May 21, 2025

NextLevel said:
Bible 101:
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

Precisely!

And therefore, "capriciously saving some people and damning other people brings him glory," . . .both
to his mercy in pardoning his enemies and
to his justice in condemning his enemies.

Xeno.of.athens · May 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
therefore, "capriciously saving some people and damning other people brings him glory," . . .both
to his mercy in pardoning his enemies and
to his justice in condemning his enemies.

No it doesn't. It brings no glory. It's a shameful man-made doctrine.

Grace

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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Blood-bought

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Blood-bought

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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