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Can Salvation be lost?

BobRyan

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The question as I understand it is not "can you ever make a mistake after having repented and accepted salvation".

1 John 2:1 says we are not lost each time we fail, each time we sin.

But there is such a thing as salvation revoked, forgiveness revoked as we see at the end of Matt 18 and as we see in Gal 5:4 being "severed from Christ - fallen from Grace".

You can also see it in Rom 11 where branch - a person who stands in Christ "only by your faith" fails to remain and is "cut off" just as the unbelieving Jews were cut off - according to Paul in Rom 11.

See also Heb 6:1-9
 
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Rescued One

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Were you born with faith in Christ? If not, Who gave it to you? Did you deserve it? Was it a gift because of God's mercy? Who is going to take it away?

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Did God give faith to everyone who attends church?

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 
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Trivalee

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I guess the question resolves to what repentance is. Can you actually do it, that is, cease from all sin? Repentance may be a turning from sin, but it is not totally beating sin. In the NT, the scriptures are pretty clear that believers are still subject to temptation and must confess sin to be forgiven. So they must be sinning. I have often taught that repentance is a task you were meant to fail. But the trying is important. It humbles you and puts you at the foot of the throne, dependent on our Lord, Saviour, and Advocate. The trouble comes when we see people who claim they have successfully repented from all sin and have become "perfect as your Father in heaven." They are not humble; they sound like they are boasting about their success! And worst of all, their claim of a successful repentance discourages those who have tried to repent and are honest about their failure. They may turn away thinking it is hopeless. Telling people they have to believe the gospel AND successfully repent to be saved is much like telling them they must believe and then do a million push-ups. It destroys their faith, and they walk away hopeless in defeat. My question is, who are these people who claim to have done those million push-ups???
I concur with your view. Our constant awareness of the folly of self-righteousness is the key to depending on Christ's righteousness to make it to the end. Remarkably, Jesus warned believers in Matt 24:13, Rev 2:26, Rev 3:5, and several other places that he who endures/overcomes to the end shall be saved.

This is even more poignant since he (the Lord) addressed "saved believers" in these texts! So, coming to faith is merely the beginning of the journey. IOW, one may be born-again and saved, but they fail to abide in Christ throughout their Christian journey, they may not receive the promised immortality and eternal life.
 
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Trivalee

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The question as I understand it is not "can you ever make a mistake after having repented and accepted salvation".

1 John 2:1 says we are not lost each time we fail, each time we sin.

But there is such a thing as salvation revoked, forgiveness revoked as we see at the end of Matt 18 and as we see in Gal 5:4 being "severed from Christ - fallen from Grace".

You can also see it in Rom 11 where branch - a person who stands in Christ "only by your faith" fails to remain and is "cut off" just as the unbelieving Jews were cut off - according to Paul in Rom 11.

See also Heb 6:1-9
Thank you for the passages you provided that highlight an irrefutable shade to the concept.
 
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Carl Emerson

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In these considerations we need to see the difference between salvation revoked and loosing the blessings of the kingdom.

Take the young man Paul excommunicated - he lost the blessings of the kingdom so that he might not loose his salvation.

The outcome was he returned in repentance.
 
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FredVB

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I guess the question resolves to what repentance is. Can you actually do it, that is, cease from all sin? Repentance may be a turning from sin, but it is not totally beating sin. In the NT, the scriptures are pretty clear that believers are still subject to temptation and must confess sin to be forgiven. So they must be sinning. I have often taught that repentance is a task you were meant to fail. But the trying is important. It humbles you and puts you at the foot of the throne, dependent on our Lord, Saviour, and Advocate. The trouble comes when we see people who claim they have successfully repented from all sin and have become "perfect as your Father in heaven." They are not humble; they sound like they are boasting about their success! And worst of all, their claim of a successful repentance discourages those who have tried to repent and are honest about their failure. They may turn away thinking it is hopeless. Telling people they have to believe the gospel AND successfully repent to be saved is much like telling them they must believe and then do a million push-ups. It destroys their faith, and they walk away hopeless in defeat. My question is, who are these people who claim to have done those million push-ups???

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" is totally misunderstood by so many who read it, it must be an inherent flaw to the translation. Jesus meant because your Father in heaven is perfect, be perfect as you can be. Of course no one can be perfect just as God who has no sin is perfect. That's impossible. Repentance is still willingly turning from sin, and there is God's provision for help in that, this is essential in faith with which we are saved. Whether we still fail in things or not will not matter to that for us personally, but it matters as Christ bore consequential justice for all those things, while we who are repentant repent for those failings too and will yet willingly turn from those. Maturity comes with that.
 
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Bro.T

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Paul says in (Heb. 6:4-6) (v.4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (v.5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (v.6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You mean that you can be enlightened, be partakers of the Holy Ghost, taste the good word of God and still it’s possible for you to fall away. You had better pay attention to what the Lord inspired Paul to write here. Just as you choose to serve God of you own free will you can by that same free will decide to stop serving God. You are what is called a free agent, the choice is yours.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Paul says in (Heb. 6:4-6) (v.4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (v.5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (v.6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You mean that you can be enlightened, be partakers of the Holy Ghost, taste the good word of God and still it’s possible for you to fall away. You had better pay attention to what the Lord inspired Paul to write here. Just as you choose to serve God of you own free will you can by that same free will decide to stop serving God. You are what is called a free agent, the choice is yours.

Personally I believe the truely born again give up their 'free will' to God and invite Him to take control of their lives. - every time they pray the Lord's prayer this is expressed. Further more their salvation is sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit - see Jeremiah 32:40
 
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Rescued One

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If God brings you to Christ, He will save you and keep you, and you won't have any desire to leave Him.

John 10
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

Some people think it's simple ro be a Christian, but they don't have genuine faith and then they walk away.

1 John 2:19 NKJ
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
 
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Rescued One

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Were you born with faith in Christ? If not, Who gave it to you? Did you deserve it? Was it a gift because of God's mercy? Who is going to take it away?

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Did God give faith to everyone who attends church?

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
I forgot that I had already said this. But here's more:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. / For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. / And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
The One who calls you is faithful, and He will do it.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. / God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Paul says in (Heb. 6:4-6) (v.4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (v.5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (v.6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You mean that you can be enlightened, be partakers of the Holy Ghost, taste the good word of God and still it’s possible for you to fall away. You had better pay attention to what the Lord inspired Paul to write here. Just as you choose to serve God of you own free will you can by that same free will decide to stop serving God. You are what is called a free agent, the choice is yours.

This passage refers to Tares in the Church, not true believers.
 
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Danthemailman

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This passage refers to Tares in the Church, not true believers.
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation (Hebrews 12:15 - come short of the grace of God) certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Tares were made partakers of the Holy Ghost?

Yes - in that they benefitted from the blessings and sanctification of fellowship.

However they were never indwelled with His presence.
 
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Trivalee

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I forgot that I had already said this. But here's more:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. / For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. / And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
The One who calls you is faithful, and He will do it.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. / God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
God doesn't take away a believer's desire to leave, particularly in the face of persecution. If there's no chance that a true believer could potentially lose their salvation, then there would have been no need for the various warnings that "only those who overcome Rev 2:26; 3:5 & v21" shall inherit the promises.
 
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Yes - in that they benefitted from the blessings and sanctification of fellowship.

However they were never indwelled with His presence.
Thats a huge stretch. It also contradicts Scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)​

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Romans 8:9 (KJV)​

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
 
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Carl Emerson

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God doesn't take away a believer's desire to leave, particularly in the face of persecution. If there's no chance that a true believer could potentially lose their salvation, then there would have been no need for the various warnings that "only those who overcome Rev 2:26; 3:5 & v21" shall inherit the promises.

"If by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you will live..."

The overcoming is His work in us by the Spirit.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Thats a huge stretch. It also contradicts Scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)​



Romans 8:9 (KJV)​


The 'natural man' refers to unbelievers in the world.

Tares are unbelievers in the church who are not born again.

My position does not contradict either Scripture.
 
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The 'natural man' refers to unbelievers in the world.

Tares are unbelievers in the church who are not born again.

My position does not contradict either Scripture.
You are saying that tares can be once enlightened and be partakers of the Holy Spirit.
So are you saying that they were once saved at one point in time?
Or are you saying they were never saved?
If you say they were never saved, then how can they be once enlightened and made partakers with the Holy Spirit.
The verses I just gave you demonstrate that a saved believer has the Spirit and not the unbeliever.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You are saying that tares can be once enlightened and be partakers of the Holy Spirit.
So are you saying that they were once saved at one point in time?
Or are you saying they were never saved?
If you say they were never saved, then how can they be once enlightened and made partakers with the Holy Spirit.
The verses I just gave you demonstrate that a saved believer has the Spirit and not the unbeliever.

No I am not saying that...

Tasting, knowing and being indwelled are quite different.

Some come to church and become 'christianised' without being born again and indwelled.
 
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