More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture

Garrett.theo said:

I'm not entirely sure that I grasp what you're trying to say.

If you're argument is that those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture don't believe they will receive new, glorified, immortal bodies at the return of Jesus, then you're simply wrong. As I shared in my initial post (#1), this is seen in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, as quoted below:



As for the Most Holy place, we know that Christ has entered it and intercedes on our behalf so that we may be redeemed by the accepting of his sacrifice on the cross! This is what those verses you quoted from Hebrews 9 are all about!

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No. It's not about receiving a glorified body. It's about a rapture to heaven to "meet the Lord [God] in the air". For the most part, post trib does not believe that Jesus takes the saints to meet our heavenly Father in the most holy place of heaven... the throne room. According to Daniel 7, Jesus is seen coming in clouds of glory, going to the Father, where, afterwards he is given the kingdom that is over all dominions.

Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

To those who are looking for him, they shall appear with him when he appears the 2nd time before God the Father in the most holy place. At the rapture, Jesus shall take them (the saints) and present them to the Father.

2Th 1:7-11 KJV 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

The wicked [but not the righteous] shall be punished by eternal separation from the presence of the lord. But Jesus shall come to the Father, to be glorified in the saints...ala the rapture to heaven.

Be Blessed
The PuP

Spiritual Jew said:

In my view there are two great tribulations. One local one that involved God's wrath against unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and one global great tribulation before the future return of Christ that involves the persecution of believers along with significantly increased persecution, apostasy, deception and wickedness like Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. He doesn't really describe persecution specifically there, but, in my opinion, Jesus does in relation to that same time period in Matthew 24:9-13 along with the increased apostasy, deception and wickedness that Paul wrote about. I consider that time period to be the same as Satan's little season of Revelation 20:7-9.

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Yes, thank you for your view on this. The view that one tribulation is the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD leaves out the part of the tribulation that includes the exile of the Jews from their land.

That's why I see the "great tribulation" as being both the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the exile of the Jews over the last 2000 years. The Roman Army was the Abomination of Desolation in 70 AD, and the Roman imperial system will come to an end with Antichrist as its last ruler.

Antichrist's reign may be what you're calling "Satan's little season?" I realize that amillennialists view the description of the Millennial Age as a type of the present age?

We all have to come to our own conclusions. Thanks again.

Garrett.theo said:

I hope these answers will clear up some of the misunderstandings you have about events relating to end time prophecy.

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I'm sure there are things I am wrong about, maybe even eschatology.

But as I said

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)

The most sobering truth in Scripture is that God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell. On the other hand, the blessed truth for believers is that God has not destined us for wrath. Thus Christians cannot be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble...Israel will go through the tribulation, not the Church. Israel will be redeemed during the tribulation, not all, but elect of God will be. And because the Church is different than Israel, then the Church can leave before the tribulation and Israel will still be around to be redeemed.

The Church won't be here when the bowls of wrath are poured. From Revelation 12 we know that the devil will be cast down to Earth. That's why God says 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” Woe is not for Christians, woe is not for the bride of Christ.

Matthew 16:18 “And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” In other words, Satan will never stifle the Church. That’s very important.
Revelation 13:7, here we are in the tribulation. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the Church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the Church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”

Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

John 14, Jesus made the promise of the rapture. In verse 33 of chapter 13, He said, “I’m going to go away, and you can’t come where I’m going to go,” and they were all broken up. They wanted to be with Him so much.

In verse 1, He says, “Stop letting your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.” here comes the promise: “In My Father’s house there are many mansions; if it weren’t so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there ye may be also.” Now Jesus says, “Don’t be troubled, because I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.”

That is absolutely foreign to the Jewish mind. The Jew had no concept of such an event. All the Jew expected was Messiah comes to earth, sets up an earthly kingdom; he had no concept of leaving and going to the Father’s house. In fact, it was so new that they stood there dumbfounded. Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know what You’re talking about.” – verse 5 – “Where are You going? How do you get there?” What’s this? Since when are You going? We thought the Messiah came, stayed, set up the kingdom. This is new.”

Now mark this: throughout the Old Testament, God never, ever promised this to Israel. At no time does God say to Israel, “I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.” Always, Messiah will come and reign on the earth in the promised kingdom. So here you have something completely different than the national hope of Israel. It must be a distinct event.

You say, “Well, maybe the rapture and the return happened together.” It can’t. They can’t. I don’t believe in the up and down quickie. You say, “Why?” Well, because of this.

Think about this one. How many are going to be changed in the rapture? “We shall all be changed.” Okay. How many of the ungodly are going to be destroyed in the second coming? All. So if you’ve got all believers changed, and you’ve got the rapture and the return at the same moment, the kingdom next, you’ve got all believers changed and all unbelievers destroyed, who is going to be around in the kingdom to do the gardening that Amos talks about? Amos 9, he says, “There’s going to be tilling of the ground, raising crops, plowing, planting vineyards, gardens, eating of the fruit. Men are going to sit into their vineyards and share their grapes with their neighbors.”

Who’s going to be sitting around? Everybody’s glorified or dead. You’ve got to have a period of time between – when it says “all be changed” it can’t mean all the saints of all the ages, or there won’t be any redeemed saints during the tribulation to go into the kingdom.

Plus, how do you get a worldwide rebellion in the kingdom if you’ve got no ungodly going in and only translated saints going in? How do you get Satan loose from leading a worldwide rebellion? You’ve got nobody to lead. You must have – now watch – you must have living physical beings in the kingdom. You’ve got to have a little child to lead that menagerie of animals around. Now where are you going to get unless there’s some saints redeemed during a period between the rapture and the return? Therefore we believe the rapture must come before the return and at the beginning of the tribulation.

Well, 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 13, this describes the rapture: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them who are asleep.” Now they were worried because some Christians had died and they thought they might be second-class citizens and miss out on the rapture. And so they go down and they say in verse 16, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Not only are they not going to miss, they’re going to go first. This is the rapture. The dead bodies rise to meet the souls that have been with the Lord. If a person dies now, his spirit immediately is in the presence of Christ. Later on his body will be a glorified body resurrected to meet his spirit already with Christ. So the dead bodies rise to meet the spirits. “Then we who are left alive and remain are caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” All right, there’s the rapture. Everybody goes. See? Don’t worry about the dead ones, they go too. “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Now immediately the question is going to come up, “Well, when does this happen?” Look at verse 1 of chapter 5. “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” “Of the times and the seasons, you have no need that I write unto you.” Jesus said that I better make sure I’m not up on the roof without my bags packed, and I’d better make sure that I’ve got all my clothes together, and I better make sure it isn’t winter and I’ve got food, and I better make sure my wife doesn’t have a baby and that I don’t have little children, because it’s going to be hot and heavy and fast, and I’ll barely escape with my life if I do.

Paul would never have said, “Comfort one another with these words, and you don’t need to know when it’s going to come.” That would be the height of ridiculous statements. “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s nothing. You don’t have any need to know. All it is is tribulation that’s going to realize the ultimate disaster of the world.” That would be a foolish statement, “Of the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” Well, that would contradict what Jesus said if we’re going through the tribulation.

“For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” But watch this. Who shall not escape? What is the pronoun? “They shall not escape.”

Verse 4: “But,” – what’s the pronoun? – “ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief.” Do you see a difference? “Somebody’s going to get it when the day of the Lord comes, but you, brethren, aren’t going to be there. It’s not going to overtake you.” Why? “You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.”

Look at verse 8-9. He says just live the Christian life. “Put on the breastplate of faith and love, and helmet, the hope of salvation.” And then what do you do? “Relax,” – verse 9 – “for God hath not appointed us to” – what? – “wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The word “salvation” in the Greek means deliverance. He hasn’t appointed us to wrath, but to deliverance, “who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live” – what? – “together with Him.”

We’re not appointed to judgment, we’re appointed to be with Him, That’s where we’re going to be. And while the judgment hits the world, whether a believer has died or whether he’s alive, we’re going to be with Jesus. I’ll tell you, friends, I am not looking for Antichrist, I’m looking for Christ. And then in 11, he says, “Wherefore comfort yourselves together.” Now there’s no comfort in going through the tribulation, believe me. Only possible for comfort if we’re going to escape.

Garrett.theo said:

On a side note, Zechariah 14 depicts something entirely different than what you're making it out to be. For it to be correctly understood, will require a lot of foreknowledge of scripture and the ability to recognize and connect patterned language and descriptive imagery. I would encourage you to not focus too hard on Zechariah 14 until you've gotten a better understanding of The Book of Revelation.

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Erm no, I am not going to put Zechariah aside, because the book of Zechariah is the Revelation of Old Testament, and is key to understand eschatology.

Garrett.theo said:

For example, the timeline you present for end time events falls inline with the order it is written in Revelation, making it seem like the Book of Revelation was written to depict end time events in Chronological order. The problem with that view is that it isn't supported anywhere in scripture and is easily refutable!

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The timeline of Revelation is revealed to us in chapter 1
Verse 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Chapters 2-3 describe the age of Church. The 7 Churches represent the Church.
Then chapter 4 starts like this 'After this I looked' after this. After what? The age of the Church.

It's even more understandable in Greek. After this in rev 1 19 in Greek is meta tauta. Rev 4 1 begins with meta tauta
So after the age of Church...beginning of chapter 4...and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads

That's the rapture. The Church is in Heaven now, and does not appear on Earth until it comes back with Christ at the end of tribulation.

Garrett.theo said:

Additionally, you say the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 bowls, yet in my original post (#1) I demonstrated exactly how the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are separate visions describing the same event. That evidence showed that one can't come before the other!

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They are not the same event. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpet judgments. The seventh trumpet calls forth seven angels who carry the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8).

Now of course I can be wrong about some things. Just because we disagree does not mean I am the right one. But there is no way Christians are here during the Great Tribulation because we were not appointed unto wrath

Ivan Hlavanda said:

I'm sure there are things I am wrong about, maybe even eschatology.

But as I said

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)

The most sobering truth in Scripture is that God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell. On the other hand, the blessed truth for believers is that God has not destined us for wrath. Thus Christians cannot be on Earth during the Great Tribulation.

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This I view as a very weak argument. I've heard it so many times, and it has been answered so many times. It requires that one identify the Reign of Antichrist as "God's Wrath." While nobody would deny that aspects of God's Wrath fall upon Antichrist's Kingdom towards the end of his reign, this does not require the entire period of his reign to be considered "the wrath of God."

Obviously, saints are put to death by the Antichrist, which is apparent from the reading of Revelation. Have they gone through "God's Wrath?" No.

We can view ancient attacks on Israel by the Babylonians acts of "Divine Wrath." And yet a prophet like Jeremiah went through this "time of Wrath." Was God's Wrath directed at Jeremiah? No. And yet, he was there in the middle of that period of "Tribulation."

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The 7 year Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble...Israel will go through the tribulation, not the Church. Israel will be redeemed during the tribulation, not all, but elect of God will be.

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The belief that there is a "7 year Tribulation" is not in the book of Revelation at all. It is based on a false conflation of Daniel's 70th Week (Dan 9) and the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist.

Antichrist's reign is repeatedly said to be only 3.5 years, both in Dan 9 and in various places in the book of Revelation. Daniel's 70th Week is completed in just a Half-Week, or 3.5 years, which was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus.

This is how the early Church Fathers interpreted it, and how I also interpret it. Only a couple of Church Fathers tried to push this 70th Week of Daniel into the future.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

And because the Church is different than Israel, then the Church can leave before the tribulation and Israel will still be around to be redeemed.

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Israel was a model for the international Church. The problems Israel had are the same problems Christian nations have faced in history.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

You say, “Well, maybe the rapture and the return happened together.” It can’t. They can’t. I don’t believe in the up and down quickie. You say, “Why?”

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Well, you should. The Scriptures explain it as "in the twinkle of an eye." The objective is return from heaven with Christ in new glorified bodies.

It is not about taking a full round trip, there and back. It is *instantaneous.* Think *becoming glorified* iin an instant. Don't think *taking a flight.*

PesachPup said:

No. It's not about receiving a glorified body. It's about a rapture to heaven to "meet the Lord [God] in the air". For the most part, post trib does not believe that Jesus takes the saints to meet our heavenly Father in the most holy place of heaven... the throne room. According to Daniel 7, Jesus is seen coming in clouds of glory, going to the Father, where, afterwards he is given the kingdom that is over all dominions.

Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

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That passage is about Christ's ascension, not His second coming. It has Him coming to heaven and to the Father, not from heaven. Look at the similarities between these passages:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Spiritual Jew said:

That passage is about Christ's ascension, not His second coming. It has Him coming to heaven and to the Father, not from heaven. Look at the similarities between these passages:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

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You misunderstand me and what Hebrews 9 says. No question Daniel 7:13-14 is about Jesus coming (from earth) TO heaven. But Hebrews 9 explains that "once" [the first time] Jesus entered into the holy place, through his shed blood, to become our high priest. And he will appear the 2nd (going into the holy place) for the salvation that is without sin. It's not talking about our atonement for sin, that Christ paid for with his first entrance into the holy. He is talking about the 2nd time that Jesus shall appear in the most holy place. As Hebrews 9:27 says, our ultimate judgment will follow our (and everyone's) death. This judgment is the "How much more..." found in verses 14 &15 when our conscience shall be purged from dead works to serve the living God. There won't be any more remembrance of the sins that pervade our lives in this flesh and blood existence that we have. Christ IS NOW our mediator in the presence of God in the most holy place, for the imperfections of our flesh. And we are earnestly expecting to receive "the promise". He is our mediator until we receive that promise, being seated at God's right hand.

Heb 9:14 KJV How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

That is what Christ's 2nd appearance in the most holy place will do for those looking for that day... without sin unto salvation. He must leave the glories of heaven (the most holy place) before he can appear a 2nd time there... without sin unto salvation [of our bodies] to those that look for him. It's a future event... future to his 1st appearance as our high priest. Christ will have been given authority over his enemies only after he has left sitting at the Father's right hand, ala the most holy place. This is the "world that is to come" as spoken in Heb 2:

Heb 2:5-8 KJV 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This is an obvious reference to Psalm 110. It is the arrival of the world to come that will manifest that all things have been put under his feet, Heb 2:5. So Psalm 110 is saying that "Christ sitting at the right hand of God, who now sits on the throne" is evidence that God has not yet put all things under his feet. That is reserved for the world to come AND the 2nd appearance of Christ in the most holy place.

Dan 7:13-14 is that 2nd appearance of the Son of man before the Ancient of days, when all kingdoms and people and nations and tongues shall be given to serve him.

Be Blessed
The PuP

RandyPNW said:

This I view as a very weak argument. I've heard it so many times, and it has been answered so many times. It requires that one identify the Reign of Antichrist as "God's Wrath." While nobody would deny that aspects of God's Wrath fall upon Antichrist's Kingdom towards the end of his reign, this does not require the entire period of his reign to be considered "the wrath of God."

Obviously, saints are put to death by the Antichrist, which is apparent from the reading of Revelation. Have they gone through "God's Wrath?" No.

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I didn't say the reign of the antichrist is the divine wrath of God. Neither did I say the antichrist killing people is the wrath of God. But during the reign of antichrist, the 7 bowls of wrath of God will be poured. This happens in the second half of the tribulation, the last 3.5 years.

The Scripture teaches clearly that those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God (Romans 8:1). While some judgments during the Tribulation specifically target the unsaved, many other judgments, such as the earthquakes, falling stars, and famines, will affect the saved and unsaved equally. Thus, if believers go through the Tribulation, they will experience the wrath of God, in contradiction of Romans 8:1.

The church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. This is only a weak argument in your mind, but the Scripture is clear on this.

Also, the word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation. Yes, the word saints appear in chapter 13, but I already showed that this is not the Church. The beast will overcome the saints in rev 13, this cannot be the Church as gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

The pretribulational view seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. Biblical examples of God’s salvation include Noah, who was delivered from the worldwide flood; Lot, who was delivered from Sodom; and Rahab, who was delivered from Jericho

RandyPNW said:

The belief that there is a "7 year Tribulation" is not in the book of Revelation at all. It is based on a false conflation of Daniel's 70th Week (Dan 9) and the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist.

Antichrist's reign is repeatedly said to be only 3.5 years, both in Dan 9 and in various places in the book of Revelation. Daniel's 70th Week is completed in just a Half-Week, or 3.5 years, which was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus

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No. The antichrist has not come yet. The book of revelation was written in year 95, this is still a futuristic event. Rev chapter 4 onwards has not happened yet.

Of the 70 “sevens,” 69 have been fulfilled in history. This leaves one more “seven” yet to be fulfilled. We are now living in a huge gap between the 69th week and the 70th week. The prophetic clock has been paused, as it were. The final “seven” of Daniel is what we usually call the tribulation period.

Daniel’s prophecy reveals some of the actions of the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come.” Verse 27 says, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’” However, “in the middle of the ‘seven,’ . . . he will set up an abomination that causes desolation” in the temple. Jesus warned of this event in Matthew 24:15. After the Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel, a time of “great tribulation” begins Matthew 24:21.

So there is yet one more week left. But before you get to that week, look at verse 27 of Daniel 9. There you have one week. Do you see it? “He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.” Before you get to the one week, you have a gap in verse 26. That is utterly essential to the understanding of this prophecy. The seventy weeks did not run sequentially right through the seventieth week; there’s a gap here.

And here’s another thing that’s going to happen after the sixty-nine weeks – not during, but after; that’s how the verse begins. “And the people of the prince that shall come.” Now here you’ve got a prince with a little “p”, not a big one. Who’s this prince? Who is the prince that shall come? Antichrist.

So, after the 483 years, the Messiah would be cut off, and there would be desolation in the land; and that’s what happened. But it didn’t end there, because in 1914, in the middle of all of this, ninety thousand Jews had come back to their land. And by 1948, it had a charter as a nation again.

What's happening? They’re getting set up; for what?” Verse 27: “And he shall” – who’s he? – “the prince that shall come,” the Antichrist. That’s the proper antecedent for “he.” “He shall confirm the league, the treaty, the covenant, with many” – the many refers to the Jews – “for one week.” Stop right there

Now we have a gap, don’t we then, between 69 and 70. The gap was at least a few days, because it had to be long enough for Christ to be crucified. It was at least a few years; it had to be long enough for 70 A.D. And if it could be that long, it can be undetermined, can’t it.

How long will the gap last? It’ll last until Antichrist comes to confirm a covenant with Israel; that’s how long it’ll last.

“And he shall confirm the Antichrist makes a league with them for seven years.” This is very important. He comes as a great hero to them.

Frankly, Israel’s scared, and they’re looking for somebody to bail them out. They’re getting pressured from the Arab nations; they know that. And they’re most of all afraid of what country? Russia.

Russia wants two things: they want a port in the Persian Gulf, because they want to control the oil of the world; and they want access to the Indian Ocean. They want a port on the Mediterranean, because they want to control the Mediterranean. And to do that, they need Israel. And little by little, they’re just taking off the Middle East.

The only savior there is in the world, basically for Israel, is a confederated Europe. And what is going to happen, according to the prophets, is when that final confederacy of Europe comes together, out of that confederacy will rise this one great world ruler called the little horn or the Antichrist, as you would call him, and this world ruler will come to the rescue of Israel, and make a treaty to protect Israel.

Ezekiel says Israel will be so, so secure, and feeling so good about the protection offered by the Antichrist’s treaty, that in Ezekiel’s prophecy it says she is living in unwalled villages. In other words, they really believe they are well-protected. And we’ll get in to what happens when Russia comes to conquer Israel. But that comes later in Daniel.

And so they will make a covenant with the Antichrist, the final ruler of the revived Roman Empire. But he’s a liar. He’s vile, right out of the pit of hell. And so it says in verse 27, “In the middle of the week.” Now what is the middle of seven? Good class; coming along. Three-and-a-half. “In the middle of the week, he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

And by the way, when he is mentioned in the sixth chapter of Revelation, it says he comes conquering and to conquer with a bow. And it seems as though he conquers by peace. He is a statesman unequalled. His mouth speaks great things, but he has forces behind him that intimidate. But he seems to be able to negotiate the right things for Israel: security in the land, a temple in the land, and he lets them have their worship.

But in the middle of that period of seven years, which is known as the great tribulation, he stops the whole thing; and in its place he brings an overspreading of abominations, and he turns the temple into desolation. And it remains desolate till the consummation; and that which is determined is poured out upon it. He just stops the whole thing in the middle.

“they worshiped the dragon who gave power to the beast.” Now the beast, another name for the Antichrist. “And they worshiped the beast saying, ‘Who is like the beast?’ It was given unto him” – verse 5 – “a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;” – you see, there it is, the abomination – “and power given unto him to continue for” – how long? – “forty-two months.” How long is that? Three-and-a-half-years.

Second three-and-a-half years, he puts himself in power. “He opens his mouth,” – verse 6 – “blasphemes God, blasphemes His name, blasphemes His tabernacle, blasphemes everybody that dwells in heaven. Is given him power to make war with the saints, to overcome them,” and so forth and so forth. And he establishes himself as the one to be worshiped. Verse 15: “There is an image of the beast set up, and he is to be worshiped; and as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be” – what? – “killed, killed.”

Second Thessalonians 2 tells us that he sets himself up as God. Now you know what’s also interesting about this? A footnote: During the same three-and-a-half year period that he’s had a treaty with Israel, he has also allowed the apostate church to exist. That’s the harlot and the harlot of Revelation 17. He allows that to exist too.

But at that same midpoint, according to the end of chapter 17, he devours the false church. So he devours Israel, he devours the false church; there’s nothing of religion left but him. And in true Roman style, he sets himself up as the only deity. That goes on for three-and-a-half years. “And he makes the place desolate” – verse 27 – “until the consummation,” – or until the end, or until the finish – “and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Now that takes us to the end, almost. Is that the end? The whole ballgame ends with this guy being worshiped. Is that the end?” That’s not the end.

“At the end of seventy weeks, God will finish the transgression, and make an end of sins.” And, folks, in those two phrases, you have the destruction of the Antichrist, right? Has to be. And then He makes reconciliation for iniquity, and then He brings in the righteousness of the ages. He seals up the vision and prophecy, and He anoints the Holy of Holies.

None of this has happened yet. This is a futuristic event.

RandyPNW said:

The problems Israel had are the same problems Christian nations have faced in history.

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Yes. But Israel and the Church are not the same. Neither has the Church replaced Israel like many claim today.

RandyPNW said:

Well, you should. The Scriptures explain it as "in the twinkle of an eye." The objective is return from heaven with Christ in new glorified bodies.

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Yes, the rapture happens in the twinkle of an eye. And yes, we return from heaven in new glorified bodies. But we return after the marriage supper of the lamb in Heaven, at the end of the tribulation. Rev 4 - Rev 19 describe the 7 year period, in two parallels, one is in Heaven and one is here on Earth

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9).

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Jesus will return on the day of the Lord, so, of course, believers will not be overtaken by the wrath that comes down on that day. Let's look at how Paul describes that wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

So, what this text says is that when the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly as a thief in the night, then "sudden destruction" will come upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". And then Paul points out that we are not in spiritual darkness so we will not be overtaken by that sudden destruction that will come on that day that the Lord returns.

Peter described the same event, so we don't have to wonder what will cause the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter makes it clear that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul talked about will be caused by fire coming down on the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape".

The idea that the rapture will occur before this day comes unexpectedly is not taught anywhere in scripture. The only wrath that we need to be taken off of the earth to escape is the wrath of the Lamb that comes down on the day He returns which will destroy all of His enemies on the earth.

This passage also describes that day:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Clearly, no unbelievers will survive when Jesus comes and all believers will be changed to put on bodily immortality at that time.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. This is only a weak argument in your mind, but the Scripture is clear on this.

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It's a weak argument in the mind of anyone who is honest with scripture. For one thing, that was an actual church in the ancient Roman province of Asia in the first century, not some future church. Also, the promise that they would be kept from that hour of trial has nothing to do with being taken off of the earth, but rather with being protected during that hour of trial. The words "keep" and "from" in Revelation 3:10 are translated from the Greek words "tereo" (keep) and "ek" (from). Those words are used together in this verse as well.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Why would Jesus pray that His followers would NOT be taken out of the world but instead protected from evil and then later say that they would be taken out of the world to avoid the hour of trial? That makes no sense. He would not contradict Himself like that. There will be no need to be taken out of the world until the world is destroyed on the day the Lord returns.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

Also, the word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation. Yes, the word saints appear in chapter 13, but I already showed that this is not the Church.

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This is ridiculous. How can you say that the saints are not the church?

All of the following verses refer to people in the church as "saints".

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The beast will overcome the saints in rev 13, this cannot be the Church as gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

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That's talking about persecution and the saints being killed. The gates of hell don't prevail against the church by killing saints who immediately go to heaven afterwards.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The pretribulational view seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. Biblical examples of God’s salvation include Noah, who was delivered from the worldwide flood; Lot, who was delivered from Sodom; and Rahab, who was delivered from Jericho

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Jesus said this:

Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Jesus said that the day Noah entered the ark the flood destroyed them all (all unbelievers). He said the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur destroyed them all (all unbelievers). Then He said it will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed, which means that the day He comes He will destroy all unbelievers, but we will instead escape His wrath by being changed to put on bodily immortality when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Garrett.theo said:

@Ivan Hlavanda

I see that a large part of the reason you believe Christians are not on earth during The Great Tribulation is because 1 Thessalonians 5:9a tells us, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath..." Most people read that and think, as it relates to The Great Tribulation, believers won't be on earth while God's wrath is being poured. This is because they can't possibly see any way for God to protect them while such calamity is happening around them. Not only does this demonstrates a lack of faith in God's divine power, but it also implies that God will act contrary to His very own character seen throughout scripture.

Surely, we as Christians believe that there is a degree by which God supernaturally protects us from The Enemy! Similarly, we can have confidence, through faith, that God will supernaturally protect His people during The Great Tribulation!

As I'm sure you're already aware, the judgments poured out during The Great Tribulation are all allusions to the judgements that fell on Egypt in Moses' time (e.g., hailstorms, festering sores, water turned into blood, darkness, locusts, etc.). If you recall from that story in Exodus, there was a placed called the Land of Goshen. Goshen was a place where the Israelites were protected from the the plagues during Moses' time. In similar fashion, during The Great Tribulation, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) are used as an end-times sanctuary from the plagues, which Jesus tells us to flee to when we see "standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel..." (Matthew 24:15) In this manner, the mountains become an allusion to the Land of Goshen in Moses' time.

In addition to this allusionary theme, scripture does, in fact, depict God's divine protection for His people during the time of The Great Tribulation. While I plan on making a separate post about that in the future, you can read what I've already written about it here. If you just read the first half of what I wrote (i.e., the written material before the ascending view of the trumpets and the bowls), it will be made clear to you that God does indeed protects His people during the time of The Great Tribulation!

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On a side note, believing in a post-tribulation rapture doesn't mean that believers are simply caught up in the air to be with Christ only to immediately come back down again after a few moments! Rather, after being transformed and caught up to be with The Lord in the air, we are taken by Christ to Heaven for 1000 years to judge the dead. Once the 1000 years are up, the wicked are raised back to life to receive their punishment. As they are brought back to life, Satan goes out to deceive them one last time to gather them for battle against The Lord, but God will destroy them all with fire!

I summed up a lot of scripture there, which I'm sure we'll disagree on, but it goes to show that one can certainly believe in a post-tribulation rapture without believing that Christians immediately come back down from the air with Christ after being caught up and transformed.

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I'm not telling you to ignore Zechariah 14 completely. The trouble is that your misunderstanding of what it is, is causing to misapply it to scripture and create a distorted view of end time events. For one, you're not going to be able to understand it unless you first understand that it's depicting the very things I said would happen after the 1000 years are over. But I will try to break this down for you here:

7th Trumpet​	6th Seal​	7th Bowl​
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,… Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.” – Revelation 11:15,19	“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.” – Revelation 6:12-14	“The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake… Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people.” – Revelation 16:17-18,20-21

I'm going to try to keep this as short and simple as possible. As the table above shows, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl, are all depicting the same event, as evidenced by the color-coded words. In the description of the 6th seal we're told that: the sun turned black, the whole moon turned blood red and the stars in the sky fell to earth. This imagery here tells us that at the return of The Lord, the entire universe is basically destroyed (i.e., it no longer operates like it used to).

Keeping this in mind, when we read Zechariah 14, we're told the events of that passage take place under a very peculiar setting. Zechariah 14:6-7 says: "On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light."

Clearly, as this verse indicates, the earth and it's atmosphere don't operate like they used to, meaning the prophetic depictions in Zechariah 14 happen only after the events of the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl!

For further clarity about this, the passage in Zechariah that tell us "Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths," is a depiction of the wicked being consumed by Hellfire.

There is a lot more that can be said, but it would be too much for you to understand. I don't say this to belittle you, but rather I say it because Zechariah 14 is simply very difficult to break down and would take a long time!

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Lastly, you still claim that the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are separate events despite the fact that I already demonstrated, with evidence, in my original post (#1) that they are undoubted describing the same event. If you're not willing to take heed to evidence, then there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.

I would like to offer you some advice through an illustration to help you better understand Revelation. If you were given an old photo album and asked to describe the pictures as your turned each page, your words, in linear format, would depict events spanning many years and describe events that may be out of order. Similarly, when John was being given these visions in the Book of Revelation, he likely wrote them down in the order in which he saw them. But that doesn't mean that is the order in which the events themselves take place. When reading Revelation, look for patterns in language and imagery, and The Lord will guide you in how to connect them in a way that makes logical sense without it contradicting itself.

I tell you this has already happened, and its mystery has already been solved.

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Revelation is mostly linear. To insist that the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Bowl are the same event is not correct. The woes clearly come in sequence, one after the other.


Each one arrives and then the next one comes.

This is how Revelation is laid out:

Garrett.theo said:

7th Trumpet​	6th Seal​	7th Bowl​
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,… Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.” – Revelation 11:15,19	“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.” – Revelation 6:12-14	“The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake… Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people.” – Revelation 16:17-18,20-21

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Garrett.theo said:

When we put these puzzle pieces together, they give us a very detailed depiction of what will happen on the day of Jesus' return. It's no coincidence that all these verse share similar language. If the 6th seal depicts Jesus' return (as evidenced in the first table of this post) and it contains language used in the 7th bowl and trumpet (which also depict Jesus' return as evidenced by the phrase "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder"), then we can understand when we see the same terminology used in the depiction of fire being hurled on earth, that fiery wrath will also accompany Jesus' glorious return!

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I totally agree these are the same events. And I've long believed God's wrath will happen simultaneously with the Lord's return. God can certainly protect his own during that time. I do differ on the rapture to Heaven at the end and what will happen during the tribulation but that's another topic altogether...

I believe the 6 seals are more of an outline/knowledge of what will happen and have always posted as such- because anyone should be able to see these are definitely the same event.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

And I love how you've expounded on everything with the trumps, bowls, and seals.

And yes, everything lines up with Christ's teachings and Paul being a second witness to those teachings regarding the trumps, etc.

Garrett.theo said:

We must ask ourselves then, "If the 6th seal and 7th bowl are separate events, how is it possible that every island and mountain are destroyed on two separate occasions?

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Because the mountains and islands still remain on both occasions. You have added 'destroyed'. Bad you.
Tectonic plate movement explains this shifting of location, which is usually just a matter of a few feet. But very damaging to our buildings, etc.

The Seals, Trumpet and Bowls, are all separate events and will happen in the order that Revelation gives us. Why not?
It is just confusion to mix them up.

could not be found... may mean the mountains will be flattened. As Habakkuk 3:6 says

Garrett.theo said:

Therefore, we must ask ourselves: how is it possible that all the mountains crumble (i.e., are destroyed) on two separate occasions that are eerily similar to one another?

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It is only referring to mountains in the Holy Land area, not worldwide.

Here is an interesting Prophecy:
Isaiah 49:19 The Lord did indeed make His Land waste and desolate. He razed it flat, but now the Land is too small for all its inhabitants. Those who caused its ruin are now far away.
This is how it will be after the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath.
Zephaniah 1:18 says the current peoples will be gone and Ezekiell 34:11-16 tells us how the faithful Christians will go to live there.

The Prophecy in Revelation 16:20, will occur when Jesus Returns, and must be just a temporary situation, as there are still mountains and islands in the Millennium. Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:10-11