I hope these answers will clear up some of the misunderstandings you have about events relating to end time prophecy.
I'm sure there are things I am wrong about, maybe even eschatology.
But as I said
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (
1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)
The most sobering truth in Scripture is that God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell. On the other hand, the blessed truth for believers is that
God has not destined us for wrath. Thus Christians cannot be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble...Israel will go through the tribulation, not the Church. Israel will be redeemed during the tribulation, not all, but elect of God will be. And because the Church is different than Israel, then the Church can leave before the tribulation and Israel will still be around to be redeemed.
The Church won't be here when the bowls of wrath are poured. From Revelation 12 we know that the devil will be cast down to Earth. That's why God says 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” Woe is not for Christians, woe is not for the bride of Christ.
Matthew 16:18 “And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” In other words, Satan will never stifle the Church. That’s very important.
Revelation 13:7, here we are in the tribulation. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the Church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the Church in view in the tribulation.
In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”
Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.
John 14, Jesus made the promise of the rapture. In verse 33 of chapter 13, He said, “I’m going to go away, and you can’t come where I’m going to go,” and they were all broken up. They wanted to be with Him so much.
In verse 1, He says, “Stop letting your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.” here comes the promise: “In My Father’s house there are many mansions; if it weren’t so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there ye may be also.” Now Jesus says, “Don’t be troubled, because I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.”
That is absolutely foreign to the Jewish mind. The Jew had no concept of such an event. All the Jew expected was Messiah comes to earth, sets up an earthly kingdom; he had no concept of leaving and going to the Father’s house. In fact, it was so new that they stood there dumbfounded. Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know what You’re talking about.” – verse 5 – “Where are You going? How do you get there?” What’s this? Since when are You going? We thought the Messiah came, stayed, set up the kingdom. This is new.”
Now mark this: throughout the Old Testament, God never, ever promised this to Israel. At no time does God say to Israel, “I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.” Always, Messiah will come and reign on the earth in the promised kingdom. So here you have something completely different than the national hope of Israel. It must be a distinct event.
You say, “Well, maybe the rapture and the return happened together.” It can’t. They can’t. I don’t believe in the up and down quickie. You say, “Why?” Well, because of this.
Think about this one. How many are going to be changed in the rapture? “We shall all be changed.” Okay. How many of the ungodly are going to be destroyed in the second coming? All. So if you’ve got all believers changed, and you’ve got the rapture and the return at the same moment, the kingdom next, you’ve got all believers changed and all unbelievers destroyed, who is going to be around in the kingdom to do the gardening that Amos talks about? Amos 9, he says, “There’s going to be tilling of the ground, raising crops, plowing, planting vineyards, gardens, eating of the fruit. Men are going to sit into their vineyards and share their grapes with their neighbors.”
Who’s going to be sitting around? Everybody’s glorified or dead. You’ve got to have a period of time between – when it says “all be changed” it can’t mean all the saints of all the ages, or there won’t be any redeemed saints during the tribulation to go into the kingdom.
Plus, how do you get a worldwide rebellion in the kingdom if you’ve got no ungodly going in and only translated saints going in? How do you get Satan loose from leading a worldwide rebellion? You’ve got nobody to lead. You must have – now watch – you must have living physical beings in the kingdom. You’ve got to have a little child to lead that menagerie of animals around. Now where are you going to get unless there’s some saints redeemed during a period between the rapture and the return? Therefore we believe the rapture must come before the return and at the beginning of the tribulation.
Well, 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 13, this describes the rapture: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them who are asleep.” Now they were worried because some Christians had died and they thought they might be second-class citizens and miss out on the rapture. And so they go down and they say in verse 16, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
Not only are they not going to miss, they’re going to go first. This is the rapture. The dead bodies rise to meet the souls that have been with the Lord. If a person dies now, his spirit immediately is in the presence of Christ. Later on his body will be a glorified body resurrected to meet his spirit already with Christ. So the dead bodies rise to meet the spirits. “Then we who are left alive and remain are caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” All right, there’s the rapture. Everybody goes. See? Don’t worry about the dead ones, they go too. “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
Now immediately the question is going to come up, “Well, when does this happen?” Look at verse 1 of chapter 5. “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” “Of the times and the seasons, you have no need that I write unto you.” Jesus said that I better make sure I’m not up on the roof without my bags packed, and I’d better make sure that I’ve got all my clothes together, and I better make sure it isn’t winter and I’ve got food, and I better make sure my wife doesn’t have a baby and that I don’t have little children, because it’s going to be hot and heavy and fast, and I’ll barely escape with my life if I do.
Paul would never have said, “Comfort one another with these words, and you don’t need to know when it’s going to come.” That would be the height of ridiculous statements. “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s nothing. You don’t have any need to know. All it is is tribulation that’s going to realize the ultimate disaster of the world.” That would be a foolish statement, “Of the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” Well, that would contradict what Jesus said if we’re going through the tribulation.
“For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” But watch this. Who shall not escape? What is the pronoun? “They shall not escape.”
Verse 4: “But,” – what’s the pronoun? – “ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief.” Do you see a difference? “Somebody’s going to get it when the day of the Lord comes, but you, brethren, aren’t going to be there. It’s not going to overtake you.” Why? “You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.”
Look at verse 8-9. He says just live the Christian life. “Put on the breastplate of faith and love, and helmet, the hope of salvation.” And then what do you do? “Relax,” – verse 9 – “for God hath not appointed us to” – what? – “wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The word “salvation” in the Greek means deliverance. He hasn’t appointed us to wrath, but to deliverance, “who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live” – what? – “together with Him.”
We’re not appointed to judgment, we’re appointed to be with Him, That’s where we’re going to be. And while the judgment hits the world, whether a believer has died or whether he’s alive, we’re going to be with Jesus. I’ll tell you, friends, I am not looking for Antichrist, I’m looking for Christ. And then in 11, he says, “Wherefore comfort yourselves together.” Now there’s no comfort in going through the tribulation, believe me. Only possible for comfort if we’re going to escape.
On a side note, Zechariah 14 depicts something entirely different than what you're making it out to be. For it to be correctly understood, will require a lot of foreknowledge of scripture and the ability to recognize and connect patterned language and descriptive imagery. I would encourage you to not focus too hard on Zechariah 14 until you've gotten a better understanding of The Book of Revelation.
Erm no, I am not going to put Zechariah aside, because the book of Zechariah is the Revelation of Old Testament, and is key to understand eschatology.
For example, the timeline you present for end time events falls inline with the order it is written in Revelation, making it seem like the Book of Revelation was written to depict end time events in Chronological order. The problem with that view is that it isn't supported anywhere in scripture and is easily refutable!
The timeline of Revelation is revealed to us in chapter 1
Verse 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Chapters 2-3 describe the age of Church. The 7 Churches represent the Church.
Then chapter 4 starts like this 'After this I looked' after this. After what? The age of the Church.
It's even more understandable in Greek.
After this in rev 1 19 in Greek is
meta tauta. Rev 4 1 begins with
meta tauta
So after the age of Church...beginning of chapter 4...and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads
That's the rapture. The Church is in Heaven now, and does not appear on Earth until it comes back with Christ at the end of tribulation.
Additionally, you say the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 bowls, yet in my original post (#1) I demonstrated exactly how the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are separate visions describing the same event. That evidence showed that one can't come before the other!
They are not the same event. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpet judgments. The seventh trumpet calls forth seven angels who carry the seven bowls of God’s wrath (
Revelation 11:15–19;
15:1–8).
Now of course I can be wrong about some things. Just because we disagree does not mean I am the right one. But there is no way Christians are here during the Great Tribulation because we were not appointed unto wrath
