Does Matthew 24 describe the rapture?

Jamdoc said:

Except again, Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19 all contain saints being in heaven. Not on Earth. They are described doing things that people with bodies do.

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Yes, we are in Heaven, you are much closer than most, I say that knowing no two people will agree 100% but there are some on here that I disagree with 95%, douggg and I agree on about 50/50, so when I see someone who gets most things right I have top laud their spiritual journey as being earnest in full. I will run a couple things for you to ponder on below, but most people do not see these things unless they think them through. By the way, before I move on, think of 15&16 as really one chapter, because in Rev. 8 the Angels READY THE Trumps to be Sounded, then start the Sounding. In Rev. 15 the Angels ready the Vials to be poured out right? Then in Rev. 16 the pour them out.

Jamdoc said:

Well it's the general idea behind the post trib "rapture" is that people go up to the clouds, meet Jesus coming down, and go right back down to Earth to Armageddon.
Except there are scriptural contradictions, such as people being in heaven in Revelation 7, 15, and 19, and Isaiah 63 having Jesus tread the winepress of His wrath alone. That means there must be a time when we are not on Earth, but He is.

Isaiah 63:

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Yes, its a nonsensical dynamic they put forth on this timing. Even in Rev. 14, (The Parenthetical Harvest Chapter) we see the 144,000 which is a CODE like the 1/3 is a Ratio in Zech. 13:8-9, the Wicked Grapes which see God's Winepress of Wrath, and we see the Church in the first ever Cinematic Flashback, to the Pre Trib. Rapture, being Harvested by Jesus who sticks in the Sickle from UPON a Cloud.

Jamdoc said:

Isaiah 63:

So Jesus comes to Earth, and there are no faithful left. Either they have 100% been martyred, or they were raptured. Either Paul was wrong about there being people alive and remaining when Jesus comes.. or they're in heaven, and Jesus is on Earth and nobody on Earth but His enemies to trample.

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On this, there will be the 144,000 or 5 Million Jews who repent, but they are in the Petra/Bozrah Area, but Jesus comes to them in Blood Stained Garments remember, meaning he alone shows up to speak victory, however, the church returns with him as Rev. 19 shoes we are his Army, but alas, Jesus speaks victory, so God alone wins the battle, not us.

Jamdoc said:

True but there's another thing involved.

Revelation 6:17 is the declaration that God's wrath has come, but then Revelation 7, the Angels that were given charge to harm the Earth are stayed until the 144000 are sealed. There's the 144,000, there's the great multitude in heaven, worshiping God on the throne and the Lamb.

Then there's the 7th seal, and after the 7th seal there's the 7 trumpets.

So either the trumpets are sequential after the seals, or the 7th seal is.. nothing.

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The points I was referring to above are here:

What if ALL THE Seals were nothing but a Containment Pouch or 7 Binders with Wax Signet Seals on them like below, we can think of a pouch with seven folders bound by 7 locks, or a closet with 7 locks on it. The Closet door will not open until the 7 locks are off right? Lets have a look see.



Notice, all 7 Seals have to be off before the Judgments can come forth. So (Smile, think it through) what if the Seals are merely Jesus Prophetically announcing what the "soon to come" Trumpet Judgments will bring upon mankind, after the 7th Seal losses the Scroll to be read aloud. This is why the "7th Seal" is over in Rev. 8 AFTER (the point you made_ the Angel in Rev. 7 are told to HOLD UP the Four Winds (Coming Wrath of God) until the 144,000 are Sealed (saved by the holy spirit) and Protected (in the Petra/Bozrah region). Thus as the 6th Seal is opened, we are told about God's Wrath (which will soon cover 42 months, but in Seals 1-5 were are told about the AC/Little Horn/Beast who's rule covers the exact same 42 months, but he will only be allowed to go forth conquering once God's Wrath falls at the midway point of the 70 week, he will 1.) Conquer (White Horse) 2.) Bring War over a 42 month period of time (Red Horse) 3.) Bring Famine for 42 months via the Black Horse 4.) And under his rule of 42 months many men will see Sickness, Death & the Grave (Hades) So, both run parallel. And thus in Rev. 7 that is JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls, which is why he tells the Angel to HOLD UP hurting the Trees, Seas, and the Earth, well where does that happen at? In Rev. 8, we see the Trees burn (1/3) the Earth and Sea gets hit by an Asteroid. So, this means God's Wrath only comes starting in Rev. 8 and that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8. The Martyrs at the 5th Seal are not even dead yet (LO, God and His Mysteries)

NOTICE: in the Trumps & Vials they Are SOUNDED or POURED OUT by Angels, but with the Seals a Covering Angel in heaven simply says over and over COME AND SEE, COME AND SEE !! That is because John is being shown a Future Vision that is soon to come. All of God's Wrath emit from the 7 Trumps, this explains Rev. 10, when the SEVEN THUNDERS SOUND time [as we know it] will be NO MORE. Trumps 1-4 are about an Asteroid Impact, its shown unto us via 4 Phases, a Pre Impact breaking apart TREES BURNING as Trump #1 followed by THE IMPACT (Trump #2) followed by a FALL OUT or Poisoning of the fresh waters in the 1/3 area (The New World IMHO) and the Fourth Trump is the Sun & Moon being blocked out by 1/3 via all the Smoke. Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are the Three Woes so says Rev. 8:13.

So, Trump 5 = the First Woe, Trump 6 = the 2nd Woe, and Trump #7 = the 3rd Woe, which can be seen in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, and it emits from the 7th Trump.

Jamdoc said:

I do have a repeat starting at Revelation 12, but I don't further break it down because the bowls seem to be contingent on the Mark of the Beast from Revelation 13.

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So, Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (really 15&16) are all of God's Wrath over a 42 month period of time. Rev. 2-7 are in Chronological Order, Rev. 1 is the Eternal Jesus. Then in Rev. 9 we carry on the Sequential Order of things, but the we JUMP to Rev. 16. All the other Chapters are Parenthetical and cover at least 42 months, Rev. 11 covers 1335 days. Rev. 14 and 19 cover the full 7 years because of the Cinematic Flashback in Rev. 14 and because we see the Church/Bride being readied for the Marriage n Rev. 19 that also covers the 7 full years because we see the Bride already Adorned in White in Rev. 4.

Rev. 10 the 7 Thunders (Trumps) cover 42 months

Rev. 11 the Two-Witnesses Ministry covers 42 months BUT, it really starts 1335 days before the 2nd coming.

Rev. 12 the Beast Chases the Woman/Israel for 42 months.

Rev. 13 the Beast rules for 42 months. (Rev. 14 & 19 were already explained)

Rev. 17 covers 42 months, the Harlot (All False Religion) is killed off by the E.U. Prez. Beast

Rev. 18 i the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon the Great)being Judged.

Fisherking said:

Yes, we are in Heaven, you are much closer than most, I say that knowing no two people will agree 100% but there are some on here that I disagree with 95%, douggg and I agree on about 50/50, so when I see someone who gets most things right I have top laud their spiritual journey as being earnest in full. I will run a couple things for you to ponder on below, but most people do not see these things unless they think them through. By the way, before I move on, think of 15&16 as really one chapter, because in Rev. 8 the Angels READY THE Trumps to be Sounded, then start the Sounding. In Rev. 15 the Angels ready the Vials to be poured out right? Then in Rev. 16 the pour them out.


Yes, its a nonsensical dynamic they put forth on this timing. Even in Rev. 14, (The Parenthetical Harvest Chapter) we see the 144,000 which is a CODE like the 1/3 is a Ratio in Zech. 13:8-9, the Wicked Grapes which see God's Winepress of Wrath, and we see the Church in the first ever Cinematic Flashback, to the Pre Trib. Rapture, being Harvested by Jesus who sticks in the Sickle from UPON a Cloud.


On this, there will be the 144,000 or 5 Million Jews who repent, but they are in the Petra/Bozrah Area, but Jesus comes to them in Blood Stained Garments remember, meaning he alone shows up to speak victory, however, the church returns with him as Rev. 19 shoes we are his Army, but alas, Jesus speaks victory, so God alone wins the battle, not us.


The points I was referring to above are here:

What if ALL THE Seals were nothing but a Containment Pouch or 7 Binders with Wax Signet Seals on them like below, we can think of a pouch with seven folders bound by 7 locks, or a closet with 7 locks on it. The Closet door will not open until the 7 locks are off right? Lets have a look see.

View attachment 365009

Notice, all 7 Seals have to be off before the Judgments can come forth. So (Smile, think it through) what if the Seals are merely Jesus Prophetically announcing what the "soon to come" Trumpet Judgments will bring upon mankind, after the 7th Seal losses the Scroll to be read aloud. This is why the "7th Seal" is over in Rev. 8 AFTER (the point you made_ the Angel in Rev. 7 are told to HOLD UP the Four Winds (Coming Wrath of God) until the 144,000 are Sealed (saved by the holy spirit) and Protected (in the Petra/Bozrah region). Thus as the 6th Seal is opened, we are told about God's Wrath (which will soon cover 42 months, but in Seals 1-5 were are told about the AC/Little Horn/Beast who's rule covers the exact same 42 months, but he will only be allowed to go forth conquering once God's Wrath falls at the midway point of the 70 week, he will 1.) Conquer (White Horse) 2.) Bring War over a 42 month period of time (Red Horse) 3.) Bring Famine for 42 months via the Black Horse 4.) And under his rule of 42 months many men will see Sickness, Death & the Grave (Hades) So, both run parallel. And thus in Rev. 7 that is JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls, which is why he tells the Angel to HOLD UP hurting the Trees, Seas, and the Earth, well where does that happen at? In Rev. 8, we see the Trees burn (1/3) the Earth and Sea gets hit by an Asteroid. So, this means God's Wrath only comes starting in Rev. 8 and that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8. The Martyrs at the 5th Seal are not even dead yet (LO, God and His Mysteries)

NOTICE: in the Trumps & Vials they Are SOUNDED or POURED OUT by Angels, but with the Seals a Covering Angel in heaven simply says over and over COME AND SEE, COME AND SEE !! That is because John is being shown a Future Vision that is soon to come. All of God's Wrath emit from the 7 Trumps, this explains Rev. 10, when the SEVEN THUNDERS SOUND time [as we know it] will be NO MORE. Trumps 1-4 are about an Asteroid Impact, its shown unto us via 4 Phases, a Pre Impact breaking apart TREES BURNING as Trump #1 followed by THE IMPACT (Trump #2) followed by a FALL OUT or Poisoning of the fresh waters in the 1/3 area (The New World IMHO) and the Fourth Trump is the Sun & Moon being blocked out by 1/3 via all the Smoke. Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are the Three Woes so says Rev. 8:13.

So, Trump 5 = the First Woe, Trump 6 = the 2nd Woe, and Trump #7 = the 3rd Woe, which can be seen in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, and it emits from the 7th Trump.


So, Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (really 15&16) are all of God's Wrath over a 42 month period of time. Rev. 2-7 are in Chronological Order, Rev. 1 is the Eternal Jesus. Then in Rev. 9 we carry on the Sequential Order of things, but the we JUMP to Rev. 16. All the other Chapters are Parenthetical and cover at least 42 months, Rev. 11 covers 1335 days. Rev. 14 and 19 cover the full 7 years because of the Cinematic Flashback in Rev. 14 and because we see the Church/Bride being readied for the Marriage n Rev. 19 that also covers the 7 full years because we see the Bride already Adorned in White in Rev. 4.

Rev. 10 the 7 Thunders (Trumps) cover 42 months

Rev. 11 the Two-Witnesses Ministry covers 42 months BUT, it really starts 1335 days before the 2nd coming.

Rev. 12 the Beast Chases the Woman/Israel for 42 months.

Rev. 13 the Beast rules for 42 months. (Rev. 14 & 19 were already explained)

Rev. 17 covers 42 months, the Harlot (All False Religion) is killed off by the E.U. Prez. Beast

Rev. 18 i the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon the Great)being Judged.

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There are no cinematic flashbacks or flash forwards.

There's only 1 reset that I can plausibly see at Revelation 12, because Revelation 10:7 says that the 7th trumpet is the end. and Jesus does not take authority of the entire world.. and then... hand it back over to Satan to give to Antichrist in Revelation 13.

Otherwise, it's 2 Narratives. from Revelation 4-11, and from Revelation 12-19.

There are contingencies that prevent some things from overlapping:
1. The 144,000 being sealed in Revelation 7, before the Angels are allowed to hurt the planet. That means at no point in time in Revelation 6 were Angels doling out the wrath of God prior to the 6th seal. Bad things happened but it was not the wrath of God, it was all men. God just let men do these things that they had been restrained from doing prior. The 5th seal martyrs ask God how long He'll delay judging the Earth, meaning up through the 5th seal, the Earth has not been judged yet, it's not the wrath of God, no matter how pretribulationists want to paint from first seal on as the wrath of God, it's simply not. Because God has not judged the world at this time. Revelation 6:17 is.. the great day of His wrath. To be the kicker here, the 5th trumpet, the demons are to harm everyone who does not have the seal of God, meaning, the 144,000 from Revelation 7 have been sealed. This is not something disconnected, it's connected. This makes the trumpets sequentially after the seals. The trumpets cannot be happening at the same time as the first 5 seals, with seal 6 coinciding with trumpet 7 as some believe.
So because of this, we have saints having overcome great tribulation, but before the trumpets.
2. The saints in Heaven in Revelation 15 have overcome the mark of the beast, meaning this must be sequential after Revelation 13 and can't be a flashback. So we have saints in heaven, after the mark of the beast, but before the vials.
3. The first bowl in Revelation 16 is on those who bear the mark of the beast, meaning, it is sequentially after the mark of the beast of Revelation 13.
4. Revelation 19 refers to the destruction of Babylon, covered in Revelation 18, explained in Revelation 17, and referred to in Revelation 16 after the 7th bowl. So if Babylon is destroyed after the 7th bowl, Revelation 19 is sequential after Revelation 16.


So because of these contingencies requiring certain things to be chronologically after other things:

You have saints in heaven after great tribulation, after the mark of the beast, but before the trumpets, and before the bowls.

Is it pre-trib? No. It's post-trib, but pre-wrath.
However I think a lot of argument stems from not understanding what tribulation is, and not understanding the wrath of God, and trying to consider them the same thing (which they're not)

Tribulation is not supernatural wrath of God the trumpets and bowls.
Tribulation is persecution

the water turning to blood, 60 pound hailstones, demonic invasions, the sun scorching people, asteroid impacts... none of that is tribulation. That is God's wrath. God does not expect us to weather those.

However persecution at the hands of enemies, even at the hands of Antichrist and his followers, even exclusion from society through the mark of the beast, even imprisonment and martyrdom... We do have to endure those to the end. That is tribulation.

Isaiah 26

17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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The first 2 verses, we've seen that comparison to birth pangs before, it's a time marked by persecution
the 3rd verse, the resurrection, we know the rapture follows this, and the prophet beckons us to join him in safety until the indignation (a word for righteous wrath) is over. So persecution followed by resurrection and then indignation
The last verse is clear, that the Lord comes down from Heaven, and punishes the inhabitants of the Earth.

This is consistent with post-trib, pre-wrath.

but I know, most pretrib, think trib is all the supernatural wrath so the idea of going through that gives them trepidation.
But what if what you had to endure was persecution at the hands of men, but are delivered by the return of Jesus before He punishes the inhabitants of the Earth?
Can you do that? Can you endure?

Jamdoc said:

They're before the throne of God. That's in heaven. Earth is His footstool.

they are also directly worshiping God on the throne, and the Lamb. 2 distinct persons. God the Father (God on the Throne) and God the Son (the Lamb).

the People in heaven in Revelation 19.. worship God on the throne (God the Father)...... but are not worshiping the Lamb.

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Like many, you have a childish view of heaven, - It is a place far, far away; probably in a distant galaxy.
But the reality is that heaven is real and present now, its just that God makes it invisible to us. He does allow people like Ezekiel 1 and Stephen to see it. Acts 7:54
Humans never leave planet earth and eventually those worthy, will live in the new Jerusalem.

Douggg said:

What do you mean address your points ? You explained your rationale.... and conclusions.

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And you said absolutely nothing in response to any of them. How can you not know what I mean? Go back and read post 87. You didn't specifically address one single thing I said in that post. Why not? Yet, you expect me to address all of your points and questions in your posts. How is that fair? You have no idea how adult discussions are supposed to work. You must not have ever learned that.

Douggg said:

I am asking, given your conclusions, what about Ezekiel 39 - there are 7 years in that chapter that fit between the Gog/Magog event and Jesus's Second Coming ? Those 7 years indicate that your rationale and conclusion that the 70th week has been fulfilled is incorrect.

Thus, there is no reason to address your points.

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Okay, there is no reason for me to address your points, either, then. My points make it so that your understanding of Ezekiel 39 is erroneous, but you don't think you need to address that. Okay then. I am fine with us never addressing each other's points. I don't need to talk to you. I can talk to other people instead.

Fisherking said:

Israel like YOU or ME can only repent when we accept Jesus, Israel must repent, ISRAEL MUST REPENT, not Jesus. Jesus died 2000 years ago for our sins, but I was atoned in 1984, when I accepted Jesus, not in 1964 when I was born

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How about you look at what the text actually says in Daniel 9:24? It talks about making reconciliation for iniquity. Are you saying the following verse is not true when it says that Jesus made reconciliation for the sins of the people?

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Fisherking said:

1. Finish the transgression (can Jesus finish or STOP Israel from sinning? NO, Israel still has to repent, they had an Animal Sacrifice that also purged their sins, but they still rebelled, no matter if God forgives or not He will not forgive willful sins of people who plan on sinning again, then confessing like Catholics do.

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It's not about the literal end of sin, it's talking about the forgiveness and covering of sin while putting an end to the wages of sin. It's talking about Jesus taking away people's sins which He has been doing for a long time now.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Just before Jesus took His last breath on the cross, He said "It is finished". What do you think was finished at that time?

Fisherking said:

No use replying to the rest because you are not a serious person on Eschatology and you do nothing but LOL, LOL, LOL.

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I laught when I see things that are funny like your ridiculous comments. Your eschatlogy is completely messed up because you attribute things to Israel that only Jesus could accomplish, which, frankly, is blasphemous. You are very lacking in spiritual discernment. You should not even try to attempt to teach a rock eschatology.

Fisherking said:

Its not funny stuff to me.

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The scriptures themselves aren't funny to me. Your ridiculous interpretations of them are.

Fisherking said:

People who do this can't put forth a good argument and thus when they get defeated on a point they turn to LOL...........or other quips that are a waste of time for me.

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Please. Go back and read my posts where I gave a great deal of scriptural support for my understanding of Daniel 9:24 and then tell me again that I can't put forth a good argument. It's ridiculous, false statements like this that make it impossible for me to take you seriously.

Fisherking said:

The prophesy is about Israel needing to repent and thus being chastised until they do repent.

You clearly do not understand prophesy. We get THREE MARKERS in this prophesy, THE WALL, Jesus' Death and THE Agreement or Covenant.

Has Israel repented NO...........It's not even a hard prophetic utterance. Doing an Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 was hard stuff, this is easy stuff. Whenever I a person who doesn't understand the 70th week has yet to come I know they will never understand anything about Eschatology.

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You are wrong about everything. Nations don't repent, individuals do. You make salvation a national thing when scripture never does that.

Jamdoc said:

Except again, Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19 all contain saints being in heaven. Not on Earth. They are described doing things that people with bodies do.

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That's because it's not really possible to literally describe what is happening in the spiritual realm. They do not have bodies. They are the souls of the dead in Christ. Read Luke 16:19-31 and look at how it describes the rich man. He clearly is physically dead and yet it describes him as doing things as if he had a physical body like having his tongue cooled off by water and such. That is not meant to be taken literally, but is described that way because describing what is happening in the spiritual realm is something that we can't even currently understand, so it's described in a way that we can understand.

Spiritual Jew said:

And you said absolutely nothing in response to any of them. How can you not know what I mean? Go back and read post 87. You didn't specifically address one single thing I said in that post. Why not?

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My reason "why not" is because Ezekiel 39 indicates that the 7 years of the 70th week coincide with the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9.

At the end of the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:17-18 is the same feast on dead bodies as in Revelation 19:17-18. And Ezekiel 39:21-29, is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth, His Second Coming.

So any points made by you regarding the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:24 items, by which you conclude that the 70th week has already been fulfilled, have lead you to the wrong conclusion. The 70th week has not begun yet.

Ezekiel 39 is one of the most critical chapters in the bible. It give the starting point (to be right after Gog/Magog) and the ending point - Jesus's return - of the 70th week.

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, there is no reason for me to address your points, either, then. My points make it so that your understanding of Ezekiel 39 is erroneous, but you don't think you need to address that. Okay then. I am fine with us never addressing each other's points. I don't need to talk to you. I can talk to other people instead.

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Just the opposite is true. Ezekiel 39 shows that your understanding that the 70th week has been fulfilled is incorrect.

The interpretation of items in Daniel 9:24 can be debated back and forth with no resolution regarding the 70th week, whether it has been fulfilled or is still future. Ezekiel 39 gives resolution that the 70th week is still future (near) , and is specifically right after the Gog/Magog event.

Jesus has not returned, Revelation 19 ....do you agree with that ?

Spiritual Jew said:

And you said absolutely nothing in response to any of them. How can you not know what I mean? Go back and read post 87.

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Do any of your points say that Jesus has returned ?

There are certainly people in paradise/Heaven at this moment but I don't believe anyone is raptured to Heaven when Christ does return. And I believe John is in the Spirit on the Lord's day which if we go by the Bible is not referring to a day of the week but the Day of the Lord. He is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord'sDay/Day of the Lord. But that's another topic altogether...

Jamdoc said:

Well it's the general idea behind the post trib "rapture" is that people go up to the clouds, meet Jesus coming down, and go right back down to Earth to Armageddon.

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Well, when we meet Christ in the "air" that just means atmosphere/breathable air as we are to be changed into our spiritual bodies at that moment. The air does not mean sky in that verse. That's a different Greek word altogether. And with that many spiritual bodies we would certainly be "caught up" together as we meet him. And it's called the "Lord's coming"

And the Lord is bringing those that have passed away with him. So why bring those if they weren't coming down to earth?

Jamdoc said:

That means there must be a time when we are not on Earth, but He is.

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I think Isaiah 63 is self explanatory

Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."

Jamdoc said:

So Jesus comes to Earth, and there are no faithful left. Either they have 100% been martyred, or they were raptured.

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Paul teaches that some remain and are alive and it's those that are caught up in that meet him. I don't believe he's wrong.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 6:17 is the declaration that God's wrath has come, but then Revelation 7, the Angels that were given charge to harm the Earth are stayed until the 144000 are sealed.

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The seals are given and then we see that the 144,000 are sealed. I believe the seals are knowledge. Again an outline. And we know Revelation is not in chronological order. Revelation 12 being that huge example. But we can certainly try and line up the events together. Especially when we see God's wrath, I put that at the end. Christ gives us the signs as well in the gospels to his return. And Paul touches on that wrath as well. And we know Daniel is another great one to line up to. And I will admit I'm still trying to learn, still trying to piece it altogether. That's what's great about the Word. It should continue to grow for us. I once believed in a pretrib rapture and now I don't. I don't see it at all as being biblical.

You believe something in the middle concerning a rapture?

JulieB67 said:

And I believe John is in the Spirit on the Lord's day which if we go by the Bible is not referring to a day of the week but the Day of the Lord.

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Julie, I am not sure of what verse you are referring to. But if you are referring to Revelation 1:10, I think John was referring to Sunday in that verse, when he was in prayer and worship of God. He was on the island of Patmos at the time, where he was spreading the word of God.

When he heard the great voice from behind him, John was in prayer and worship of God, alone, without anyone around.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

When John turned, he saw the vision of Revelation 1:12-20. Jesus directly appearing and speaking to him.

JulieB67 said:

There are certainly people in paradise/Heaven at this moment but I don't believe anyone is raptured to Heaven when Christ does return. And I believe John is in the Spirit on the Lord's day which if we go by the Bible is not referring to a day of the week but the Day of the Lord. He is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord'sDay/Day of the Lord. But that's another topic altogether...


Well, when we meet Christ in the "air" that just means atmosphere/breathable air as we are to be changed into our spiritual bodies at that moment. The air does not mean sky in that verse. That's a different Greek word altogether. And with that many spiritual bodies we would certainly be "caught up" together as we meet him. And it's called the "Lord's coming"

And the Lord is bringing those that have passed away with him. So why bring those if they weren't coming down to earth?

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To resurrect their bodies, and to display them.

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

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Jewels in a crown, an ensign (another word for a banner or flag) above the land... it's a display. The resurrected, and raptured saints are put on display. What does the heavens departing as a scroll rolled together depict? The sky opened, and something that is normally not visible is visible.

Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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These are unbelievers. They have to see something to believe it's real. IE. They see Him. Revelation 7's worship celebration is visible from the Earth is my belief. The saints are put on display, to clearly mark out to the unbelievers, who Jesus is.

But after the display.. the saints are in heaven, and Jesus is on Earth, because Jesus needs to be alone to tread out the winepress. Can't be alone with an uncountable multitude following you.

JulieB67 said:

I think Isaiah 63 is self explanatory

Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."

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Yup, only enemies on Earth. Nobody on Jesus' side left.

JulieB67 said:

Paul teaches that some remain and are alive and it's those that are caught up in that meet him. I don't believe he's wrong.

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Then those saints are somewhere, but they're not with Jesus when He treads the winepress of His wrath in Edom/Idumea. I believe heaven.

again. This is a multitude of people who cheer on the judgements of God and destruction of Babylon, and many of them were begging God to avenge them. I don't think the silence in heaven is out of pity of those about to be judged.

but if you all believe that Jesus doesn't leave heaven until He's on a white horse? You'll go silent if Jesus leaves without you earlier than you thought. He did say He'd come at a time people didn't expect, and if that's after the trumpets and bowls? Everyone will be expecting it.
hey if you know when the Antichrist is revealed you can count down 1260 days and know the exact date right?

Traditional post trib/post wrath is the system that makes the least amount of sense because you can't have an unexpected return when it's heralded by the waters turning to blood and the sun scorching people. Everyone knows its the end of the world at that point.
Who's planting fields and harvesting and building things and getting married while the water is turning to blood and we've been hit by an asteroid or two and there's demon locusts stinging people and they want to die but can't?

Luke 17:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

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Even the surface level meaning of people going on living normal lives does not fit a post trumpets and bowls return of Jesus. Everyone would know it's the end of the world, nobody's getting married during the trumpets and bowls.
But under that surface level meaning is another. The righteous are saved just before the wrath of God hits, on the same day.

JulieB67 said:

The seals are given and then we see that the 144,000 are sealed. I believe the seals are knowledge. Again an outline. And we know Revelation is not in chronological order. Revelation 12 being that huge example. But we can certainly try and line up the events together. Especially when we see God's wrath, I put that at the end. Christ gives us the signs as well in the gospels to his return. And Paul touches on that wrath as well. And we know Daniel is another great one to line up to. And I will admit I'm still trying to learn, still trying to piece it altogether. That's what's great about the Word. It should continue to grow for us. I once believed in a pretrib rapture and now I don't. I don't see it at all as being biblical.

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Yes Jesus did give us the signs, and they contain all the things in Revelation 6... in the same order, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are uncanny in how they line up....
But none of the signs He gave were things like demon locusts, 60 pound hailstones, the sun scorching people, and the water turning to blood. He gave up to the 6th seal and then went into parables.

as for Chronological order.. yes I agree Revelation 12 is a total reset of Chronology and then it starts running through the same time period with different details. Nothing in Revelation 12-19 is contingent on any of the things that happened in Revelation 6-11 specifically where things in Revelation 9 refer back to Revelation 7, and Revelation 19 refers back to Revelation 16, Revelation 15 refers back to Revelation 13, etc. Those things are contingent so those must be in order.

JulieB67 said:

You believe something in the middle concerning a rapture?

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Post-trib, Pre-wrath, or just Pre-wrath for short.

It's making a distinction between tribulation (actions of persecution and war done by men), and the wrath of God (which Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 14:19 and Revelation 15:1 identify when/what the wrath of God is)

Some people call it a 3/4's view, because unlike mid trib the resurrection is not at the exact midpoint of the 70th week, it's some unknown time after, they figure somewhere around 3/4 of the way through the 70th week. Some people try to calculate it out that the wrath of God is a year, or 1 year, 10 days as Noah's flood was. I don't. I don't set dates, we were given signs not dates, I know it'll be at least 5 months prior to the 1260 days as that's how long the 5th seal lasts, it could be roughly a year? Jesus gives in Isaiah 34:8 and Isaiah 63:4, a day, and a year interchangeably.
It's before the 1260 days are up, meaning that the return won't be expected and people won't know an exact date. It's just.. "sometime" after the Abomination of Desolation, when a number of martyrs has been reached

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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God has ordained a number of saints be martyred, and then a number will be alive and remain when Jesus returns.

Douggg said:

Julie, I am not sure of what verse you are referring to. But if you are referring to Revelation 1:10, I think John was referring to Sunday

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It was only later that the traditions of men called Sunday the Lord's day. A day of the week was never called the Lord's day by John. He never referred to Sunday as such. It was always "the Sabbath, or the first day of the week, etc. So I like to go by precedent. And we have John's past writings to go by. The Lord's day is just another way of stating the day of the Lord. Which John
knew well about if we go by the OT.

Jamdoc said:

Everyone would know it's the end of the world, nobody's getting married

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Christ specifically mentions the days of Noe/Noah so I think we have to go back and see just who is giving and taking in marriage. And that would in some ways fit with events in Revelation 12. But that's opening up another topic altogether as well.

JulieB67 said:

Christ specifically mentions the days of Noe/Noah so I think we have to go back and see just who is giving and taking in marriage. And that would in some ways fit with events in Revelation 12. But that's opening up another topic altogether as well.

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Beyond saying "the wicked" it's less relevant. The relevant part is they were doing things that are planning for the future.
During the trumpets and bowls nobody's going to be planning for the future, they'll know it's the end of the world.
The days of Sodom were the other example and they were building and planting.. it's all pictures of normal life and planning for the future.
Do you honestly believe they will just.. plant their fields and water them with blood in the scorching sun?

It strikes a balance and the 2 examples that Jesus gives give a very multi-layered view in relatively few words.

What else is characterized by the days of Noah and Lot?

Violence
Homosexuality/perversion
Possibly Angel/Human hybrids in the days of Noah
The wicked going about their normal lives while the saints were warning and preparing for disaster and being mocked or persecuted for it.

While it doesn't specifically say that Noah was warning about the flood, he built the Ark for some time.
But Lot the bible specifically mentions he went to warn his sons in law and they thought he was joking.

So.. saints will see the season of Jesus' return but everyone else? Business as usual, right up until the day He returns.
and it won't be business as usual during the trumpets and bowls.

I know a lot of pretrib use this line of reasoning for an imminent pre-trib rapture, but it doesn't fit because the saints in each example WERE aware of impending judgement and prepared for it, while the wicked were oblivious and disregarded any warnings. The saints weren't caught by surprise the way pretrib imagine they will be just suddenly out of the blue caught up. Those everyday daily life descriptions Jesus gave were for the wicked most specifically.

But even the wicked would know "hey all the water turned to blood, this is bad right?"

Jamdoc said:

During the trumpets and bowls nobody's going to be planning for the future, they'll know it's the end of the world.

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That's the analogy of the "the thief in the night" They are stating peace and safety and then bam destruction which we know to be God's wrath. So no, I don't believe they'll know it's the end of the world when destruction suddenly comes upon them.

Jamdoc said:

Possibly Angel/Human hybrids in the days of Noah

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Yes, this is what I'm talking about.

Jamdoc said:

while the saints were warning and preparing for disaster and being mocked or persecuted for it.

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I know we see this in movies, etc but they did not warn anyone because that wasn't God's plan. Only Noah and his family had that perfect pedigree. They hadn't mixed. Were they mocked? Most likely but I think Christ's point is that the angels will be here again. Look at the world today. Anything goes already. And then here comes Satan and his angels pretending to be that "angel of light" and so on., watch out. Again, Paul states people will be saying peace and safety so they are totally shocked when the true Christ returns and then bam, destruction. He then goes on to say that we are not in darkness that the "day" should overtake us as a thief. Second witness to Christ's teaching. Both have warned that Christ comes after the events of those days. So that's what I have to hold to and since that's my belief, everything else should line up to that.

JulieB67 said:

It was only later that the traditions of men called Sunday the Lord's day. A day of the week was never called the Lord's day by John. He never referred to Sunday as such. It was always "the Sabbath, or the first day of the week, etc.

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Okay, then let''s just say in Revelation 1:10 that it was a day of the week that John referred to as the Lord's day that he was in the act of prayer and worship.

But we should not call it "the day of the Lord".

"the day of the Lord" expression carries a specific significance of beginning like a thief in the night, i.e. without warning.
1Thessalonians5:2-4

When the day of the Lord begins, God's wrath will begin. Since we are not appointed to wrath, in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 the resurrection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins.

Here is a chart I made of the day of the Lord and the phases of it as it moves to eternity.

fli said:

If we keep those two commandments we abide in Him.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
NKJV

We have passed from death to life if we keep the second commandment. Why, don't we need to keep the 10 commandments and the other one in 1John?

No! Because we can only keep the commandment if we keep the first because we are supposed to love the brethren as Jesus loved us. If we are in Jesus, we have the love of Jesus in us, and He fulfills for what we lack. If we had to keep all the 10, we would not be able to say when we are truly saved. Loving our brethren does not equal love our neighbor. When we love our brethren, we are also loving Jesus with the love Jesus loved us with because what we do to a believer we do to Jesus. So, you can see the only way you could keep the first four of the 10, you have to abide in Jesus.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

Jesus fulfills the law for us as long as we walk in the Spirit. So, again you can see, we can only stay in the Spirit if we abide in Jesus. That means if we keep the 2 commandments in 1John 3: 21-22 we will be abiding in Jesus

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What makes up these two commandments- how to love God, how to love man. Please use Scripture to post your answer. Love is very subjective, but love to God and love to man is not, its a call to action Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 it was literally written out for us by God on what this entails. When we use our own definition of love and not God's 1 John 5:3 we are essentially trying to use our "works" to be saved instead of depending on God's.


If we are abiding in Christ John 15:10, we are following the example of Jesus 1 John 2:6- How did Jesus live what did He teach? He taught a lot more than just two commandments, but these are the summary of what He taught and the summary does not delete the details, either does Scripture delete Scripture. It's never been pick the Scripture we want and ignore everything else, for example, God's works Exo 32:16 does not delete His work here John 6:28, it is actually the opposite, if we believe in Him, we would believe or be live His teachings such as Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 Luke 4:16 Isa 56:1-6 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 etc. etc

Douggg said:

Okay, then let''s just say in Revelation 1:10 that it was a day of the week that John referred to as the Lord's day that he was in the act of prayer and worship.

But we should not call it "the day of the Lord".

"the day of the Lord" expression carries a specific significance of beginning like a thief in the night, i.e. without warning.
1Thessalonians5:2-4

When the day of the Lord begins, God's wrath will begin. Since we are not appointed to wrath, in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 the resurrection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins.

Here is a chart I made of the day of the Lord and the phases of it as it moves to eternity.

View attachment 365070

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It's always best to consult with what God said in His own Words and He told us when is Lords Day and its not Sunday, this is a man-made tradition leading people away from obeying God's commandments Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

God said the Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord- meaning there is no other, thus saith the Lord. The Lords day as day 1 in no where in Scripture, its all man-made going against what God said.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord, thus saith the Lord.

Sadly, the Sabbath was changed just as God warned Dan 7:25 that most the world has followed instead of being faithful to God and keeping what He asked us to Remember, obeying Him because He is God, instead of following popular traditions Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13. We need to remember the devil has made a counterfeit to everything God made and He warns us of being deceived by him, he said the whole world will be deceived and I believe they have over keeping a day for worship in lieu of a finger-written by God commandment on the day God blessed and sanctified for holy use, instead of keeping holy God said was a day to do works and labors Exo 20:9 something we were warned about Eze 22:26

JulieB67 said:

That's the analogy of the "the thief in the night" They are stating peace and safety and then bam destruction which we know to be God's wrath. So no, I don't believe they'll know it's the end of the world when destruction suddenly comes upon them.

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If water is turning to blood, and you've been hit by an asteroid and the sun is scorching people, everyone will know it's the end of the world. I don't understand how post wrath people see an unexpected return of Jesus after the trumpets and bowls whatsoever.

JulieB67 said:

Yes, this is what I'm talking about.


I know we see this in movies, etc but they did not warn anyone because that wasn't God's plan. Only Noah and his family had that perfect pedigree. They hadn't mixed. Were they mocked? Most likely but I think Christ's point is that the angels will be here again. Look at the world today. Anything goes already. And then here comes Satan and his angels pretending to be that "angel of light" and so on., watch out. Again, Paul states people will be saying peace and safety so they are totally shocked when the true Christ returns and then bam, destruction. He then goes on to say that we are not in darkness that the "day" should overtake us as a thief. Second witness to Christ's teaching. Both have warned that Christ comes after the events of those days. So that's what I have to hold to and since that's my belief, everything else should line up to that.

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Right but post-wrath position sees the trumpets and bowls as not that destruction but just "tribulation" and then sees the wrath of God as being only Armageddon (which makes no sense as that being unexpected as they are GATHERED at Armageddon, they expect Him, they're planning on making war against Him.

Armageddon is expected, the second coming is not.