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WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

David Lamb

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Except when they're not. "Take, eat, this is My Body" "Oh, but He couldn't have meant that literally!", right?
Right, because of the context. When He said those words, He was present bodily with His disciples, so unless He had two bodies, "Take, eat, this is My Body" must be figurative.
 
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David Lamb

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Cousins. The understanding of language is critical.
But the bible uses a different Greek word for "cousin", for example here:

“Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),” (Col 4:10 NKJV)

The word for "cousin" there is anepsios.
 
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David Lamb

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Thank you for proving nothing since Paul himself references his brothers (fellow Christians ) who are not blood brothers. Next!
True, but you only have to think of a verse like this:

“For even His brothers did not believe in Him.” (Joh 7:5 NKJV)

to see that when the New Testament refers to the Lord's brothers, it's not referring to Christians.
 
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prodromos

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Right, because of the context. When He said those words, He was present bodily with His disciples, so unless He had two bodies, "Take, eat, this is My Body" must be figurative.
Perhaps you might like to reconsider in the context of Jesus feeding the 5000? There were just five loaves of bread and yet everyone ate their fill and there were twelve baskets of bread pieces left over. Consider the very non figurative language He used in John 6. When some of His disciples left on account of His words, He didn't run after them and say, "You idiots, I was only speaking figuratively!". He didn't correct them because they did not misunderstand, they simply didn't have faith that He would make eating His flesh and drinking His blood possible in a way that was not abhorrent to them. At the last supper He gave that to His disciples.
How can we say that the infinite God who trancends time and space, is not able to make Himself present in the bread and wine offered to His disciples and at every Divine Liturgy since that time. Treating it as symbolic is a novel teaching which was unknown in the early Church and did not exist until some time after the Reformation.
 
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David Lamb

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Perhaps you might like to reconsider in the context of Jesus feeding the 5000? There were just five loaves of bread and yet everyone ate their fill and there were twelve baskets of bread pieces left over. Consider the very non figurative language He used in John 6. When some of His disciples left on account of His words, He didn't run after them and say, "You idiots, I was only speaking figuratively!". He didn't correct them because they did not misunderstand, they simply didn't have faith that He would make eating His flesh and drinking His blood possible in a way that was not abhorrent to them. At the last supper He gave that to His disciples.
How can we say that the infinite God who trancends time and space, is not able to make Himself present in the bread and wine offered to His disciples and at every Divine Liturgy since that time. Treating it as symbolic is a novel teaching which was unknown in the early Church and did not exist until some time after the Reformation.
The bread and fish with which Jesus miraculously five thousand men, plus women and children, remained bread and fish. Certainly, later in John 6 we read of Him using the word "bread" figuratively:

“The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."” (Joh 6:41 NKJV)

The bread and wine in the Lord's Supper remain bread and wine. Having described the Last Supper, Paul says to the Corinthian Christians:

“For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1Co 11:26 NKJV)

He doesn't write, "as often as you eat the Lord's body and drink His blood." No, it is still bread and wine.
 
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prodromos

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The bread and fish with which Jesus miraculously five thousand men, plus women and children, remained bread and fish. Certainly, later in John 6 we read of Him using the word "bread" figuratively:
Figurative for His flesh, which He states plainly:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​
and​
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”​

“The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."” (Joh 6:41 NKJV)

The bread and wine in the Lord's Supper remain bread and wine. Having described the Last Supper, Paul says to the Corinthian Christians:

“For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.” (1Co 11:26 NKJV)

He doesn't write, "as often as you eat the Lord's body and drink His blood." No, it is still bread and wine.
Every Church established by Paul has consistently understood the bread and wine of the Eucharist to become the body and blood of Christ through the action of the Holy Spirit. Your interpretation only came about after the Reformation. Do you not see how difficult it would have been to introduce the doctrine of the real presence if that is not what was taught from the beginning? If you believe the doctrine is in error then show how and when it was introduced. How was it spread from England, across Europe and Asia to India?
 
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David Lamb

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Figurative for His flesh, which He states plainly:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​
and​
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”​
But Jesus made no mention of the bread with which He fed the crowd being figurative. It was actual bread, and the fish were actual fish, they satisfied the crowd's hunger. Later, He made use of the picture of bread to describe Himself.
Every Church established by Paul has consistently understood the bread and wine of the Eucharist to become the body and blood of Christ through the action of the Holy Spirit. Your interpretation only came about after the Reformation. Do you not see how difficult it would have been to introduce the doctrine of the real presence if that is not what was taught from the beginning? If you believe the doctrine is in error then show how and when it was introduced. How was it spread from England, across Europe and Asia to India?
All sorts of false doctrines spread very early in Christian history. That doesn't make them right.
 
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Carl Emerson

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But there is no reference to the Father in the title "Mother of God." Is your thought that because something is said in relation to God, it must also be said in relation to the Father?

Yes.
 
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jas3

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Then I didn't misunderstand why you made your comment. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us," and "the Word was God," so God was made flesh and dwelt among us. Did the Holy Spirit become flesh? Did the Father become flesh? Of course not.

What can be said of one Person of the Trinity can be said of God, but that doesn't mean it can be said of the other Persons.
 
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concretecamper

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True, but you only have to think of a verse like this:

“For even His brothers did not believe in Him.” (Joh 7:5 NKJV)

to see that when the New Testament refers to the Lord's brothers, it's not referring to Christians.
For even His brothers did not believe in Him. - John 7:5

Answer denies His mother and brethren for the present, as even Apelles might learn. "The Lord's brethren had not yet believed in Him."

Tertullian of Carthage
 
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prodromos

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But Jesus made no mention of the bread with which He fed the crowd being figurative. It was actual bread, and the fish were actual fish, they satisfied the crowd's hunger. Later, He made use of the picture of bread to describe Himself.
Good grief! You're not addressing any of what I'm posting.
All sorts of false doctrines spread very early in Christian history. That doesn't make them right.
What a cop out! The same bishops who fought against the false doctrines of Arianism, Nestorianism, Apollonarism, Macedonianism etc., who gave us the Creed which is the standard for Christian belief here on CF, you claim without any evidence that they themselves had fallen for a false teaching which spread through every Christian Church across the known world?
 
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David Lamb

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Good grief! You're not addressing any of what I'm posting.
I am sorry you think that. I was replying to you post where you seemed to me to be saying that the bread with which Jesus fed the 5000 men plus women and children was figurative. I certainly was not deliberately ignoring what you posted.
What a cop out! The same bishops who fought against the false doctrines of Arianism, Nestorianism, Apollonarism, Macedonianism etc., who gave us the Creed which is the standard for Christian belief here on CF, you claim without any evidence that they themselves had fallen for a false teaching which spread through every Christian Church across the known world?
I fully believe"the Creed which is the standard for Christian belief here on CF." As we seem to be getting away from the thread topic of "Did Jesus Pray to Mary?" I think I will leave it there.
 
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Lost Witness

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If someone prays to Mary..
who's the praise going to?
personally such prayer is unscriptural as we know we've only one mediator in heaven between us and Father God and that's the Lord Jesus Christ
 
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prodromos

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I am sorry you think that. I was replying to you post where you seemed to me to be saying that the bread with which Jesus fed the 5000 men plus women and children was figurative.
I did not suggest the bread with which Jesus fed the 5000 was figurative. I was giving a reason why Jesus could be present with His disciples and give them His flesh to eat literally in the bread and wine He blessed.
I certainly was not deliberately ignoring what you posted.
You haven't responded to most of it. That does seem like you are ignoring it.
I fully believe"the Creed which is the standard for Christian belief here on CF." As we seem to be getting away from the thread topic of "Did Jesus Pray to Mary?" I think I will leave it there.
Ok
 
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prodromos

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If someone prays to Mary..
who's the praise going to?
personally such prayer is unscriptural as we know we've only one mediator in heaven between us and Father God and that's the Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus is the only mediator as He is the only one who is both God and man. Anyone can be an intercessor. Has no one ever asked you to pray for them? Do you honour their request or do you tell them to just pray to God?
 
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Jipsah

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Right, because of the context.
Apparently you haven't paid much attention to 1 Corinthians 27-32. Hard to discern the Lord's Body and Blood in the Eucharist when you deny it was ever there. Just a sip and a nibble for custom's sake.
 
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Jipsah

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If someone prays to Mary..
who's the praise going to?
If someone asks old Miz Kim to pray for them, who does the praise God go?

I haven't yet seem anyone offer a reason for not asking the BVM to pray for them that wouldn't also forbid then asking anyone else to pray for them.
personally such prayer is unscriptural
Need a citation on that one, mate.
as we know we've only one mediator in heaven between us and Father God and that's the Lord Jesus Christ
And as I noted, that forbids asking either old Miz Kim or the BVM to pray for you.
 
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David Lamb

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If someone asks old Miz Kim to pray for them, who does the praise God go?

I haven't yet seem anyone offer a reason for not asking the BVM to pray for them that wouldn't also forbid then asking anyone else to pray for them.

Need a citation on that one, mate.

And as I noted, that forbids asking either old Miz Kim or the BVM to pray for you.
But when you ask a fellow-Christian on earth to pray for you, that is perfectly biblical (Paul asked other Christians to pray for him). Such asking isn't praying to your fellow Christian.
 
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prodromos

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But when you ask a fellow-Christian on earth to pray for you, that is perfectly biblical (Paul asked other Christians to pray for him). Such asking isn't praying to your fellow Christian.
That is precisely what it is.

transitive verb
  1. : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea, "pray be careful"
  2. : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
  1. : to make a request in a humble manner
  2. : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
 
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David Lamb

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That is precisely what it is.

transitive verb
  1. : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea, "pray be careful"
  2. : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
  1. : to make a request in a humble manner
  2. : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
I was talking about prayer as used in the bible. There is a huge difference between Paul asking for prayer and the same Paul actually praying:

“praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,” (Eph 6:18-19 NKJV)

“We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,” (Col 1:3 NKJV)

(The implication in the verse from Colossians is that Paul's prayer, like his thanksgiving, was addressed to God.)

The pattern prayer Jesus gave to the disciples is addressed to God:

“"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.” (Mt 6:9 NKJV)

Certainly the same word, "pray" is used in English for making entreaties to other people, but the Greek word used in the New Testament, "proseuchomai", in the 82 times it occurs, is only used for addressing God.
 
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