Is the Rapture credible?

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2025

Dan Perez said:
AND I happen to knoe it is NOT rapture as CAIGHT AWALY , is the Greek word HAPPAZO , so check the GREEK TEXT

and see !

dan p

In the Latin Vulgate it is "Rapturo" but it means the same thing in both languages. Just as is the case in English "caught up" and "rapture"

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 25, 2025

BobRyan said:
In the Latin Vulgate it is "Rapturo" but it means the same thing in both languages. Just as is the case in English "caught up" and "rapture"

Caught up does not mean rapture.

Dan Perez · May 1, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Caught up does not mean rapture.

AND FIRST , there is NO GREEK , RAPTURE in the KJV , in the Greek TEXT and most trust the KJV or the NKJV .

In 1 THESS 4:17 Says ARE ALIVE // ZAO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , a PARTICIPLE TENSE ,

in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and in the PLURAL and in the Greek , INDICATIVE MOOD , meaning you better belkeve IT .

SHALL BE CAUGHT UP // HARPAZO , in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , in the Greek , PASSIVE VOICE , in the Greek ,

NOMINATIVE TENSE , and in the PLURAL

TO GATHER // HAMA is an ADVERB

For a MEETING of the LORD INTO THE AIR , and so we will at ALL TIMES be with the LORD .

THEN IN 2 Thess 2:1 , the COMING // PAROUSIA , even our GATHERING together unto HIM

THEN IN 2 tHESS 2:3 EXCEPT THE , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA , should come first /'

Then in GAL 1:4 , all will find the word RESCUE // EXAIREO , means to PLUCK UP

And there are more !!

dan p

Xeno.of.athens · May 1, 2025

Dan Perez said:
AND FIRST , there is NO GREEK , RAPTURE in the KJV , in the Greek TEXT and most trust the KJV or the NKJV .

I do not trust the KJV or NKJV

Adventist Heretic · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
The concept of the "rapture" is one that's often discussed in Christian theology, particularly among certain Protestant denominations. It refers to a belief that faithful Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. This idea is primarily derived from a few key passages in the New Testament, though interpretations vary widely.

One of the main scriptures cited to support the belief in a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how "the dead in Christ will rise first" and how believers "will be caught up together... to meet the Lord in the air." The phrase "caught up" is often translated from the Greek word "harpazo," which means to seize or snatch away, and this is where the term "rapture" originates.

Another passage frequently mentioned is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which speaks of a mystery where believers will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" at the last trumpet. These verses have been interpreted as describing an instantaneous transformation and ascension of believers.

However, it's worth noting that the exact term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, and the belief in a rapture as it's commonly understood today largely stems from interpretations popularised in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially through dispensationalist theology. Other Christians interpret these passages differently and may view them as metaphorical or as describing events at Christ's second coming.

Whether the rapture has a credible scriptural basis depends on one's theological perspective and how these passages are interpreted. Some believers see it as a clear promise, while others consider it a more modern doctrinal development.

Marriage Supper of the Lamb - When do we go to it????? is that the same as the Rapture?

Adventist Heretic · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Historically that was never called a "rapture" it is a part of the "second coming", "second coming" is both the historical and the biblical language used to designate the event that brings day to day worldly events to an end.

2nd coming was when the Lord ruled and reigned in Jerusalem for 1000 years, The Rapture is when we go to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

BobRyan · May 2, 2025

Adventist Heretic said:
2nd coming was when the Lord ruled and reigned in Jerusalem for 1000 years,

"was when"?

Dan Perez · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not trust the KJV or NKJV

And what version do you trust , THEN ?

dan p

BobRyan · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not trust the KJV or NKJV

why not?

BobRyan · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Caught up does not mean rapture.

It does in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. It puts "rapturo" where we find the English "caught up" in 1 Thess 4

Here is the Catholic Bible for that verse

(DR) 1 Thess 4:16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,

Xeno.of.athens · May 2, 2025

BobRyan said:
It does in Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

This is nonsense. Rapture is an English word. The Vulgate is a Latin text.

BobRyan · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
This is nonsense. Rapture is an English word. The Vulgate is a Latin text.

So then "rapturo" is what is found in the Latin Vulgate for the English "caught up" -

Where even in your own Catholic Bible - the saints are " taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,"

The idea that this is does not align perfectly with the meaning behind the english term "rapture" -- might be in the eye of the beholder.

Xeno.of.athens · May 2, 2025

BobRyan said:
So then "rapturo" is what is found in the Latin Vulgate for the English "caught up" -

Where even in your own Catholic Bible - the saints are " taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,"

The idea that this is does not align perfectly with the meaning behind the english term "rapture" -- might be in the eye of the beholder.

Have you looked up the definition of rapture?

The word "rapture" has several meanings, depending on the context in which it's used:

Religious Context: In Christian eschatology, "rapture" refers to the belief that, at the end of times, believers will be taken up to heaven, meeting Christ in the air. This concept is often associated with interpretations of biblical passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
Emotional Context: "Rapture" can also mean a state of intense joy, bliss, or ecstasy—feeling completely absorbed in happiness or delight.
Literary & Artistic Use: Writers and poets use "rapture" to convey deep admiration or overwhelming passion for something beautiful, inspiring, or divine.

Would you like me to delve into a specific meaning?

BobRyan · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Have you looked up the definition of rapture?

The word "rapture" has several meanings, depending on the context in which it's used:

Religious Context: In Christian eschatology, "rapture" refers to the belief that, at the end of times, believers will be taken up to heaven, meeting Christ in the air. This concept is often associated with interpretations of biblical passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

yes -- that is why I keep referencing the text of 1 Thess 4.

Though the English word can have various meanings depending on context - the "rapturo" in 1Thess 3:13-18 is very much in line with that first meaning above "the religious context" and the English word does not have all three meanings in that list every time you read it. Context determines which meaning applies.

The text does not say "taken up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air" as if one has to go across the universe to Heaven to find air.

Rather even the Catholic Bible says that "the clouds" is all the higher they need to go to 'meet the Lord' -- from there the John 14:1-3 statement kicks in -- "I go to prepare a place for you..(In My Father's House (Heaven)) I will come again and receive you to Myself".

As Matt 24:19-31 says "immediately after the tribulation.. He will send forth His angels to gather His elect - from one end of the sky to the other".

Once they meet the Lord in the air - they are then "taken to heaven" to His Father's house "Our Father who is in heaven"

How did they all get into the sky? 1 Thess 4:13-18 answers that question.

The Liturgist · May 2, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not trust the KJV or NKJV

They’re pretty close to the Vulgate, and follow the Byzantine Text Type, like the Vulgate. The Orthodox use the KJV New Testament (but not for the Old Testament, but ironically the KJV is closer to the Vulgate than to the Septuagint used by Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox, insofar as the Vulgate was translated, except for the Psalter, from the same Hebraic texts, and the KJV has the same texts Roman Catholics call deuterocanonical, but which are protocanonical in the Orthodox Church, like the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (the Wisdom of Sirach), the books of the Maccabees, 1-4 Esdras, Baruch, Judith, Tobit, and so on, with a few exceptions if I recall pertaining to the longer version of some books; I can’t remember what the deal is with that). Orthodox churches use the Septuagint, except for the Ethiopians who use the Ge’ez Old Testament, and the Peshitta Old Testament is used by the Syriac Orthodox along with the Syriac Catholics, Malankara Catholics ,Syro-Malabar Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Chaldean Catholics and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East (the latter two churches are the only Eastern churches which in all cases allow a right-believing Roman Catholic to receive the sacrament there and whose members are also allowed to receive in Roman Catholic churches, this being rare in Oriental Orthodoxy and virtually nonexistant in Eastern Orthodoxy).

Xeno.of.athens · May 3, 2025

The Liturgist said:
They’re pretty close to the Vulgate, and follow the Byzantine Text Type, like the Vulgate. The Orthodox use the KJV New Testament (but not for the Old Testament, but ironically the KJV is closer to the Vulgate than to the Septuagint used by Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox, insofar as the Vulgate was translated, except for the Psalter, from the same Hebraic texts, and the KJV has the same texts Roman Catholics call deuterocanonical, but which are protocanonical in the Orthodox Church, like the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (the Wisdom of Sirach), the books of the Maccabees, 1-4 Esdras, Baruch, Judith, Tobit, and so on, with a few exceptions if I recall pertaining to the longer version of some books; I can’t remember what the deal is with that). Orthodox churches use the Septuagint, except for the Ethiopians who use the Ge’ez Old Testament, and the Peshitta Old Testament is used by the Syriac Orthodox along with the Syriac Catholics, Malankara Catholics ,Syro-Malabar Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Chaldean Catholics and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East (the latter two churches are the only Eastern churches which in all cases allow a right-believing Roman Catholic to receive the sacrament there and whose members are also allowed to receive in Roman Catholic churches, this being rare in Oriental Orthodoxy and virtually nonexistant in Eastern Orthodoxy).

We call them deuterocanonical when engaged with Protestants. For us they are simply canonical.

The Liturgist · May 3, 2025

BobRyan said:
It does in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. It puts "rapturo" where we find the English "caught up" in 1 Thess 4

Here is the Catholic Bible for that verse

(DR) 1 Thess 4:16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,

So what? The New Testament was written in Greek, and St. Paul used the word “ἁρπαγησόμεθα”. The existence of the word “rapturo” in one ancient translation of the Bible does not prove the 19th century Restorationist definitions of the word.

I object to nominalism with regards to hermeneutics because the subject of nomenclature can change over time.

BobRyan · May 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:

Caught up does not mean rapture

BobRyan said:
It does in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. It puts "rapturo" where we find the English "caught up" in 1 Thess 4

Here is the Catholic Bible for that verse

(DR) 1 Thess 4:16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,

The Liturgist said:
So what?

So -- "details matter".

It's a response to the post above it.

The Liturgist said:
The New Testament was written in Greek

fine... that is not the point

The Liturgist said:
, and St. Paul used the word “ἁρπαγησόμεθα”. The existence of the word “rapturo” in one ancient translation of the Bible does not prove the 19th century Restorationist definitions of the word.

your not following the post.

I did not put "rapturo" in 1 Thess 4:18 - Jerome put that in the Vulgate as a valid translation into Latin from the Greek.

Even Douay-Rheims gives it the same meaning -- shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air,"

The Liturgist said:
I object to nominalism with regards to hermeneutics

You are simply not following the post.

Please address the points actually being stated in the posts. If you wish to correct Jerome -- let us all see your suggestion.
If you think Douay-Rheims got it wrong -- show us where you think they made a mistake.

If you have trouble with the english as stated above for some reason -- let us know why.

The Liturgist · May 3, 2025

BobRyan said:
Please address the points actually being stated in the posts.

I am addressing the point. You’re saying the idea of the rapture is valid because St. Jerome used that word. I’m saying the concept of the Rapture by premillenial Restorationist churches is not consistent with St. Jerome’s understanding of the word, since St. Jerome was not a Chialist, therefore, you’re relying on nominal evidence from a Latin translation rather than actual semantics.

Details do indeed matter, and one very important detail in your discussion with my Roman Catholic friend @Xeno.of.athens is the historic understanding of the word St. Jerome translated as rapturo by the early church, and no one in the Early Church wrote anything that resembled the plot of Left Behind. And after the Second Ecumenical Synod, chiliasm, already understood by the time of St. Damasus, St. Jerome and St. Athanasius to be an error, and this is reflected in the revision to the Nicene Creed at Constantinople in 381, which actually refutes the possibility of Chiliasm by reminding us that the Kingdom of Christ has no end (and therefore the idea of a specific 1,000 year reign on Earth even if then followed by some kind of eternal Kingship becomes problematic).

Xeno.of.athens · May 3, 2025

1000 years is likely using 1000 as a very very long time.

Is the Rapture credible?

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