I feel like I can't relate to God or other Christians

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 5:25 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
If only you could understand that a lot of that stuff is all just symbolic and not literal, then you would not be so disappointed and pessimistic. We will not be disappointed once we are in eternity. Trust me. You think you know what it will be like, but you are wrong. You can't even imagine it. But, you can imagine "temples and thrones and palaces and jewels", so it's not going to be like what you imagine it will be.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

even as symbolic language, it speaks to things being grandiose and all pomp and ceremony and formality.

I'm just a simpler person than that. I prefer simple things to grandiose, casual and familiar to formal. The idea that your relationship with God is this distant, formal "relationship" where every interaction is emphasizing the distance between you and God and how far above you He is.
mind you I'm not looking for disrespecting Him, and yes He is far above us. but I hate when people treat it as distant and unfathomable rather than someone who can be close and familiar.

I desire a more intimate relationship with God, something less formal, closer, and even sometimes casual. Someone you enjoy being around and not just because they "radiate glory" and as some theologians have it (though they won't term it like this) that it's almost like a drug high. I'm not looking for an overpowering high I'm looking for a personal relationship.

But the more its about appearances and pomp and ceremony and formality, the less personal and less relatable it gets, the more isolating it feels.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 5:27 PM

All Becomes New said:
You have now had multiple orthodox Christians tell you, more or less, "You conception of heaven is wrong." I would listen. I agree that the resurrection is physical, but it is also spiritual, and we are talking about being in the presence of an infinite being for all eternity. How could that be dull?

Because the characteristics of that presence being focused on formality, emphasizing the distance between you and God, emphasizing pomp and ceremony. All that makes me feel out of place, estranged, isolated.

All Becomes New · Tuesday at 5:31 PM

Jamdoc said:
formality

Jamdoc said:
pomp and ceremony

You ever read Leviticus?

timothyu · Tuesday at 5:31 PM

Jamdoc said:
But the more its about appearances and pomp and ceremony and formality,

That's what backwards man sees as important. Our world has been built upon this human premise which is opposite to the servitude promoted by Jesus. No wonder Christianity was eventually made over in the Roman/Greek gentile image. Humans for the most part are not friendly to the ways of the Kingdom.

Lukaris · Tuesday at 5:33 PM

I would think the Lord on Mt. Tabor with Peter, James, & John would be an indication of the heavenly kingdom. There is an emphasis on light and the promise of the resurrection ( Matthew 17:1-9, etc.). Our resurrected bodies will always be a little physical but all else seems to be light which is a major emphasis in the Gospel of John ( John 1:1-5 etc.).

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 6:05 PM

Jamdoc said:
even as symbolic language, it speaks to things being grandiose and all pomp and ceremony and formality.

I'm just a simpler person than that.

Again, it's symbolic, so it's not going to be exactly like that. You need to get that out of your mind. But, don't you think God deserves to be worshiped with unbridled enthusiasm? I'm wondering how you look at God. He is the Creator of all things. I think He deserves for us to gush over Him.

Jamdoc said:
I prefer simple things to grandiose, casual and familiar to formal.

I don't think we should think that eternity will be just one long ceremony. I just don't think you have the right idea of how it will be. I showed scripture which indicates that we don't know yet what it will be like, so why act as if you know?

Jamdoc said:
The idea that your relationship with God is this distant, formal "relationship" where every interaction is emphasizing the distance between you and God and how far above you He is.

That's not accurate at all. Jesus is God and we will be able to commune with Him. He is not distant at all. Look at how He related to those closest to Him. Does that seem distant to you?

Jamdoc said:
mind you I'm not looking for disrespecting Him, and yes He is far above us. but I hate when people treat it as distant and unfathomable rather than someone who can be close and familiar.

They are wrong.

Jamdoc said:
I desire a more intimate relationship with God, something less formal, closer, and even sometimes casual.

We will have eternity with Him. There's no reason to think there will be no opportunity for that type of experience.

Jamdoc said:
Someone you enjoy being around and not just because they "radiate glory" and as some theologians have it (though they won't term it like this) that it's almost like a drug high. I'm not looking for an overpowering high I'm looking for a personal relationship.

That's what we have already with Jesus spiritually. There's no reason to think that won't continue in eternity in a way that is similar to how the disciples interacted with Him.

Jamdoc said:
But the more its about appearances and pomp and ceremony and formality, the less personal and less relatable it gets, the more isolating it feels.

I think there's a place for ceremony because this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe we're talking about. But, there's no reason to think that's all it will be for eternity.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 6:14 PM

All Becomes New said:
You ever read Leviticus?

multiple times, it's a hard read because it is all law and pomp and ceremony.

All Becomes New · Tuesday at 6:25 PM

Jamdoc said:
multiple times, it's a hard read because it is all law and pomp and ceremony.

Well, that literally was our religion for over a 1,000 years, so... you might want to think about your stance a bit.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 6:27 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
Again, it's symbolic, so it's not going to be exactly like that. You need to get that out of your mind. But, don't you think God deserves to be worshiped with unbridled enthusiasm? I'm wondering how you look at God. He is the Creator of all things. I think He deserves for us to gush over Him.

I don't think we should think that eternity will be just one long ceremony. I just don't think you have the right idea of how it will be. I showed scripture which indicates that we don't know yet what it will be like, so why act as if you know?

That's not accurate at all. Jesus is God and we will be able to commune with Him. He is not distant at all. Look at how He related to those closest to Him. Does that seem distant to you?

They are wrong.

We will have eternity with Him. There's no reason to think there will be no opportunity for that type of experience.

That's what we have already with Jesus spiritually. There's no reason to think that won't continue in eternity in a way that is similar to how the disciples interacted with Him.

I think there's a place for ceremony because this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe we're talking about. But, there's no reason to think that's all it will be for eternity.

He's the almighty creator who lowered Himself to reveal Himself to us, who walked with Adam in the cool of the evening in the Garden, who let Adam name the animals and abided by Adam's choices, who created and blessed the world and who's only command at the time was to be fruitful and multiply. There were no holy songs no holy rituals no holy temples no holy raiment.. no pomp and ceremony!

He selflessly created and blessed and asked nothing in return except for the life He created to thrive.. and commanded that they not learn good and evil. That was it.

Revelation 4 and so on though.. all pomp and ceremony.
Even if you want to say "it's symbolic language" what does that language symbolize.... Genesis 1 and 2.. no pomp and ceremony, relatively simple expectations of life in His creation. later on.. a focus on pomp and ceremony. That's what all that symbolic language conveys.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 6:28 PM

All Becomes New said:
Well, that literally was our religion for over a 1,000 years, so... you might want to think about your stance a bit.

I do, and when I do, it makes me not want to exist.

All Becomes New · Tuesday at 6:30 PM

Jamdoc said:
I do, and when I do, it makes me not want to exist.

Please tell me what is bothering you right now. Feel free to PM me.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 8:30 PM

All Becomes New said:
View attachment 364228

Please tell me what is bothering you right now. Feel free to PM me.

It boils down to I love Jesus but I hate religion.
Religion wasn't in Eden, it's something fallen men developed a need for to relate to a God they couldn't see or interact with personally.

When Moses went to commune with God on Mount Sinai, God gave just basic moral laws. But in that time... the Israelites grew restless, they wanted Aaron to make them an idol. they had developed a NEED for religion.
What followed was, God gave them a religion, full of a bunch of ceremonial religious laws, now a lot of it points to what Christ would do.

Because for most people, if you do not give them a religion, they will MAKE one, because they have a need to relate to their creator.
I do too, but I want to relate personally, not through ritual.

But if what Eternity is is not personal relationship, but religious ritual
I can't find joy in that.

All Becomes New · Tuesday at 8:58 PM

Jamdoc said:
I do too, but I want to relate personally, not through ritual.

Why do you assume the two are mutually exclusive? The rituals for the early priests of Judaism were thought to be VERY personal. They were dealing with other people, taking their animals, slaughtering them, and then burning them and eating them. They believed what they did was meaningful just as much as you do. Jesus was literally a Rabbi. He was a practicing Jew. He came to fulfill the Law... All those ceremonial things. The whole idea that it is just personal without ANY religion is to rob Jesus of His Jewishness.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 9:19 PM

All Becomes New said:
Why do you assume the two are mutually exclusive? The rituals for the early priests of Judaism were thought to be VERY personal. They were dealing with other people, taking their animals, slaughtering them, and then burning them and eating them. They believed what they did was meaningful just as much as you do. Jesus was literally a Rabbi. He was a practicing Jew. He came to fulfill the Law... All those ceremonial things. The whole idea that it is just personal without ANY religion is to rob Jesus of His Jewishness.

Well, I think the Jews were given that religion because they needed a religion and if God did not give them one they were already making one up, and theirs was defiling themselves.

Similarly. God did not intend for them to have a Human King, but that He would be their King and they'd live righteously, and any civil affairs would be taken care of by the Levite priests. But they wanted a King, so God gave them one.

I guess what I should be asking is does God desire all the religious rituals?
or does God simply acquiesce to a need we have developed since the fall, like He acquiesced to the Israelite's perceived need to have a king over them?
if the first, then.. that is where this internal struggle comes from, the question of why did God not demand religious ritual in the garden, but afterwards, it seems like its the primary reason He does anything. The question of why does God have a need or desire for such a.. sorry to say, vain thing as having ego stroked by others. It comes across as petty.
If the second.. I can understand, that He, the supreme, almighty creator, has no needs, much less a need that we do all this religious ritual for Him, like it does nothing for Him it's for us because WE have a need. That I can grasp.

Does God deserve all the fawning and worship? He's the only being who does.
However the desire of such a thing.. would be disappointing, and petty.

I don't know if I can quite get the concept out in words, the idea that He deserves something but if He desires it and makes it His primary motivation, it makes it all... less.

timothyu · Tuesday at 9:29 PM

Jamdoc said:
I guess what I should be asking is does God desire all the religious rituals?

In keeping in the spirit that man works opposite to the ways of God, it is man that teaches pets to do tricks and puts then through the ritual in order to get a treat/reward.

Jamdoc · Tuesday at 9:47 PM

timothyu said:
In keeping in the spirit that man works opposite to the ways of God, it is man that teaches pets to do tricks and puts then through the ritual in order to get a treat/reward.

ugh... that language, it evokes one of my greatest fears. That that's what we ultimately are to God.. like pets. Neutered, and who only live to see the master and fawn over the master and do tricks for rewards
quite obviously, one of the enemy's most fiery of fiery darts to chuck at me, right along with Matthew 22:30 (because it represents God changing His mind about something, and evokes the same kind of imagery as ancient kings making eunuchs out of slaves to make them not have anything but their servitude to live for), is the idea that ultimately that's the relationship between God and man.. master.. and pet, and Master, and slave.
that's what drives this sort of depression, but a lot of Christian language feeds into it.
It's easy ammunition, and I'm a weak man.

Well meaning Christians feed into this without even knowing it, with statements like "it's not about you it's about Him!" fits right into the master.. and slave relationship, where you don't matter to the master only what service you can provide.

similarly to when I say "I feel like I can't relate to God" and someone says "God isn't human, God's abstract, God's unfathomable, spiritual this spiritual that" great now I can relate even less, that doesn't help one bit.

timothyu · Tuesday at 10:01 PM

Jamdoc said:
ugh... that language, it evokes one of my greatest fears.

Did you miss the part that man thinks opposite to God? Man is the ritual lover. Man loves attention.

trophy33 · 2025-04-30T05:21:43-0500

Jamdoc said:
the abstract existence is a Greek thought invention.

The bible refers to a tangible real world.

Augustine did so much damage to Christian theology by trying to hybridize it with Greek Stoic thought that it's just unreal.

I am not sure what you mean by the abstract existence. Higher dimensions (spiritual realms) are real, not abstract. They are just invisible from lower dimensions. That is physics, not Greek something.

The word "abstract" means something else.

trophy33 · 2025-04-30T05:29:02-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
A spiritual body does not imply that it is not physical. Jesus could touch things and eat after His resurrection. He had a spiritual body. He appeared seemingly out of nowhere to the disciples in a locked building after His resurrection. A spiritual body is one that is immortal and incorruptible. Do you think Jesus could have died again after His resurrection? Of course not. His resurrection body that could be touched and that He used to eat was immortal and incorruptible. What 1 Corinthians 15:50 is talking about is MORTAL flesh and blood.

A spiritual body can project itself into the physical realm, like angels could take Lot by his hand, strike Peter to his side, talk in audible sounds, be visible like a material object etc.

However, it is not physical by nature. Or else Jesus would not be able to go through the closed doors, the angel would not be able to just appear in a locked cell etc.

Corruptibility is actually a necessary part of physical. There is no physical matter that cannot be dissolved into smaller parts, i.e. to be destroyed. Physical world is always changing and transforming from one state to another.

Jamdoc · 2025-04-30T10:15:17-0500

trophy33 said:
A spiritual body can project itself into the physical realm, like angels could take Lot by his hand, strike Peter to his side, talk in audible sounds, be visible like a material object etc.

However, it is not physical by nature. Or else Jesus would not be able to go through the closed doors, the angel would not be able to just appear in a locked cell etc.

Corruptibility is actually a necessary part of physical. There is no physical matter that cannot be dissolved into smaller parts, i.e. to be destroyed. Physical world is always changing and transforming from one state to another.

Luke 24

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

They think they've seen a spirit, Jesus corrects them.
This is not an astral projection.
It's Him in flesh after the resurrection.

Degreek yourself.

Corruptibility is not a necessary part of physical creation. It's a part of the curse of sin. God did not make the physical universe for it to die and wither. That is part of the curse when sin entered the world.

That's the Biblical worldview.
The Greek worldview is that there's a separation between the spiritual world and the physical world and the physical world is inherently evil and the spiritual is inherently good and the desire is to escape from the physical and be part of the spiritual. Augustine and the gnostics before him brought the Greek worldview INTO Christianity.

But the biblical worldview is not like that. Spiritual can in fact be evil. Very evil. In fact a spiritual being is who first lied to and tempted a physical being into sinning.

I feel like I can't relate to God or other Christians

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