Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

Richard T · Apr 26, 2025

johansen said:
You would have to have been there to understand.

it was a cocophany of people shouting at God to cure her cancer a second time.

Ok, thanks for responding. Personal discernment can go along way and I am glad you exercised that. I have seen lots of things over the years as well. I wonder how many churches ever call a somber fast and prayer for such a situation? But in this case, if a woman is told she has two years, then certainly she likely would accept that. Others though might be more like Hezekiah and contend for more. Does it always work? Of course not, but still to me it may be impossible to know if this stems from God or from our side. If we look at Psalm 90, there is part of an answer. Most teach that strength is ours. The bible too says we can renew our strength.

Everyone of course is going to die a physical death. You can't pray away old age. Early death though is back to the debate of it is a matter of God's will, or a matter of people's faith.

In the Hebrews passage below, illness is not listed. Early death from persecution is faith. Yes, there are some that actually prefer it.

Psalm 90:10 (NASB) 10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away.

Hebrews 11:35-40 (NASB)
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Richard T · Apr 26, 2025

Guojing said:
Its because you want to see yourself as part of Israel and their covenant with God (Romans 9:3-5).

That's understandable, as I said, under the covenant of Law, Israel was promised physical healing if they obey the terms of the covenant. (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26).

Healing was not random under their covenant, it was not "God may heal, God may not, we just need to trust him", that we gentiles have now under the Body of Christ (Philippians 2:27, Philippians 4:6-7)

No Israel's covenant is by far inferior. From the fall of Adam to our eternal life, God's provision has been progressive and expansive. The Israelites never had the spirit of God in them, it came upon them. Their sins were passed over, our sins are forgiven. They never had the authority that Jesus provided for us. Luke 10:19 “ Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
They never had the shield of faith that could extinguish all the fiery darts of the enemy. It is not even close, what the new covenant can do. Paul himself knew this when he prayed this in Ephesians. It is said we use something like 10% of our brain. Perhaps in our spiritual walk it is similar, that we simply are failing to understand our authority and power into Christ.
Ephesians 1:18-19 (NASB)
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

Though I may waver, I just don't see any lack on the part of God. On the other hand, I have seen lots of human failure, even in my own life that keep us from living in the abundance that God provides, including healing. The devil kills, steals and destroys, Jesus gives abundant life. Sure there are trials and temptations, and yes, there are some conditional promises but still no lack on God's part. When anyone conveys the gift of salvation to an unbeliever, it is always in their best interests. So those who convey healing and the genuine things of God to believers too are doing that to others in their best interests. Even in this conversation my faith has grown stronger to this point of raising other's levels of expectation for God to move on their behalf. Sure there will be failures, but nothing on God's part that I can see.

fhansen · Apr 26, 2025

Richard T said:
This is a pretty big issue with a wide range of thought but I will relay a little of the basics on two schools of thought for healing. Some think is has already been provided through Jesus and that it is God's will to always heal. There are lots of scriptures that seem to indicate this. Others though look at the thorn in the flesh (I do not know this school of thought much but I am sure they use other parts of the bible as well.) and suggest some things you have to carry in this world, and that healing might be when you get to heaven.

I myself look at Mark 11:23 :Truly I tell you that if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and has no doubt in his heart but believes that it will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

The believe part here is faith that comes from God; the evidence of things not seen. Some think they have faith for something they ask for, but often it is just hope. The path to faith is to press into God, some call this praying through. It is the time to get past hoping and hear from God clearly enough that one has faith that it is a done deal. One absolutely has to hear from God. "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I Cor. 12 even has a gift of faith for extraordinary things, but one has to hear from God to operate this way. Often churches teach a confession of the appropriate bible scriptures until the belief finally arrives. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. For healing it seems to be a form of testing, the devil or the sin nature (including hereditary) puts an illness on and you are sick in the flesh. Some believe and actually succeed by hearing from God and allowing the spirit man, through Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, to overcome the problem. Regardless of how one sees healing, Christians should just love everyone and never condemn but encourage someone else's faith especially in a trying time.

Don't put too much emphasis on the gifts of healing, etc. The church has always held them to be possible and prays for them but without needing signs and wonders and miracles as the ordinary way of things. Our faith, itself, is miracle enough-and love is the greatest of all the gifts.

I, too, became disgusted with figures like Hinn and Coplen, and later with the Pentecostal church I attended where I came to discern much bogus stuff going on. People want to believe in such things which opens them up to gulliblity and being taken advantage of by those who would exploit that desire.

Richard T · Apr 26, 2025

fhansen said:
Don't put too much emphasis on the gifts of healing, etc. The church has always held them to be possible and prays for them but without needing signs and wonders and miracles as the ordinary way of things. Our faith, itself, is miracle enough-and love is the greatest of all the gifts.

I, too, became disgusted with figures like Hinn and Coplen, and later with the Pentecostal church I attended where I came to discern much bogus stuff going on. People want to believe in such things which opens them up to gulliblity and being taken advantage of by those who would exploit that desire.

Yes, there are fakes. Some ministers are sincere, people try to believe and in the end they get nothing but the minister has no idea, no real follow up. But that does not negate the genuine. Nowhere are we guaranteed signs or wonders, or even the gifts to operate on demand. I can't remember who said that you can be a great prophetic preacher but you better be prepared to teach on any given night because you can't just manufacture prophecy according to your own will. So yes, too many try that with healing as well.

However, when there is love and a heart for God, the genuine stuff should flow. Ministers are right to point out that the body is designed to heal itself for many things. I think too that most healing is probably from God to the individual.

Pekka · Apr 27, 2025

Thelastferormation.com has serious guys and gals. I have hanged with them sometimes and prayed for sick people. No money involved in there.

edit: they are focused on actual doing what word says, obeying God. Sharing gospel and healing the sick. I personally focus more on personal change but definately share my faith where i can.

Guojing · Apr 27, 2025

Richard T said:
No Israel's covenant is by far inferior.

You mean inferior to our covenant?

That cannot be correct. All covenants belong to Israel (Romans 9:4),

Richard T · Apr 27, 2025

Guojing said:
You mean inferior to our covenant?

That cannot be correct. All covenants belong to Israel (Romans 9:4),

Sorry if I was not clear as I probably have not thought in the terms of covenants as you have and don't know the exact terminology nor all the aspects of continuation/fulfillment of the OT vs the NT. Still the expansion after Jesus manifests so much more. The Gentiles, the fulfillment of law, the authority of the believer, the atonement on the cross and the gift of the Holy Spirit, just to name a few benefits. Nowhere does it say that God removes healing. Is there any evidence of that?

Guojing · Apr 27, 2025

Richard T said:
Nowhere does it say that God removes healing. Is there any evidence of that?

If you read Paul's epistles to the Body of Christ today, Romans to Philemon, there is no promise of any healing from God

Contrast that to promises to the nation of Israel under Law in Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26

The key again is Romans 9:4, read it slowly and understand it literally.

johansen · Apr 27, 2025

Richard T said:
I wonder how many churches ever call a somber fast and prayer for such a situation?

My wife is the only person i know who is sometimes inspired by God to fast for someone else. Im sure others have and i just dont hear about it (for example a man in my bible study group was hit by a car and nearly died of a brain bleed, and my wife knew to fast for 3 days upon hearing of it).

Guojing said:
Contrast that to promises to the nation of Israel under Law in Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26

This concerns the supernatural judgement on the egyptians will not be laid on them, and it is contingent on their obedience.

Its generally accepted that several of those "supernatural events" or "plagues" was clamidia and other std's as a result of disobedience not to take wives from certain tribes that were supposed to be devoted to destruction.

Note that the jews would not have had near as many parasites from eating uncooked pork, and several other unclean foods. Ie, not eating already dead animals..rotting on the ground.

One of the noahide laws is: ye shall not eat from a living animal..meaning kill it and drain all the blood.

It is foolishness to think that from a couple verses, the Israelites lived in the garden of eden with no sicknesses.

The jews had to be commanded not to do #2 in their own tents ...

Richard T · Apr 27, 2025

I

Guojing said:
If you read Paul's epistles to the Body of Christ today, Romans to Philemon, there is no promise of any healing from God

Contrast that to promises to the nation of Israel under Law in Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26

The key again is Romans 9:4, read it slowly and understand it literally.

It seems to me Paul is lamenting that many of the Jews are not believing. Yes, he says they were given the promises but it does not say the promises stop. There are dozens of scriptures that can facilitate healing. The prayer of agreement would apply.
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.”
James laying on of hands would imply
Jesus went about doing good and healing ...
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever,
There are websites dedicated to showing scriptures for healing. Here is just one example.

50+ Bible Verses for Healing - Powerful Scripture Quotes

Read these Bible verses and Scriptures about healing out-loud and experience encouragement and power. God can perform miracles to heal physically, spiritually, and emotionally!

www.biblestudytools.com

Since Some of the NT quotes the OT, I like many think that many of the promises of the OT are still valid.
For instance:
Psalm 84:11 (NASB)
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; The LORD gives grace and glory; No good thing does He withhold from those who walk uprightly.

Is healing a good thing? Acts 10:38: "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him".

Jesus answered that he was willing, that he would help unbelief, that he could heal few because most had no faith. There is not a single instance of Jesus saying, your sickness is for a purpose for anyone that came to him for healing.
Sure we can point to Paul's thorn, but it is not fully identifiable as sickness, plus Paul never seemed to ask God what does he need to do to remove his weakness on his own. I could argue too that if one has a thorn in a flesh as they claim, then they too are exhibiting pride. God gives grace to the humble, so take the pride away and the devil will flee. (sickness too).
We could argue too concerning Timothy's sickness. Paul suggested drinking wine. Maybe that was God's solution? Why didn't Paul send a handkerchief?
Acts 19:11-12 (NASB)
11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.

So to me there is no way to see any lack on God's part for believers to be healed. Yes, there might be affliction for a season but I still can't drop that the onus is on us to be healed. If we think we know so much, then why are Africans so much better at receiving a healing or miracle than Westerners?
Here is an apt research piece that explains why. An African Perspective on Miracles and Divine Action

So lots of questions that I suppose every individual has to figure out with God. If I am in error I would gladly err on the side of optimism and expectation of God to have mercy and compassion. The gospel is good news, and while removing sins was the biggie, it goes further than that as the word, sozo suggests.

johansen · Apr 27, 2025

Richard T said:
There is not a single instance of Jesus saying, your sickness is for a purpose for anyone that came to him for healing.

I tend to believe suffering is meaningless but is ultimately what we all experience for a diversity of reasons.

An alcoholic is probably not going to get a miraculously cured liver for example..and we are more evil than we think possible
.

Richard T · Apr 27, 2025

johansen said:
I tend to believe suffering is meaningless but is ultimately what we all experience for a diversity of reasons.

An alcoholic is probably not going to get a miraculously cured liver for example..and we are more evil than we think possible
.

Yes, sin can take a toll and compromise not just our walk but our physical well-being. This was clear. Satan takes a scripture out of context and will try to justify our sin or how we are free from the consequences for it.

Luke 4:9 "Then the devil led Him to Jerusalem and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple. “If You are the Son of God,” he said, “throw Yourself down from here. 10For it is written: ‘He will command His angels concerning You to guard You carefully; 11and they will lift You up in their hands, so that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’d” 12But Jesus answered, “It also says, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’e”

Guojing · Apr 28, 2025

Richard T said:
It seems to me Paul is lamenting that many of the Jews are not believing. Yes, he says they were given the promises but it does not say the promises stop.

There is a reason why he did not advise Timothy, nor Trophimus, to "go to the church member with the gift of healing" in 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20

Look, if you want to believe the Old covenant promises of healing remain valid in the Body of Christ, no scripture passage from Romans to Philemon will convince you otherwise.

We can move on from this and agree to disagree. God bless.

Guojing · Apr 28, 2025

johansen said:
This concerns the supernatural judgement on the egyptians will not be laid on them, and it is contingent on their obedience.

It is foolishness to think that from a couple verses, the Israelites lived in the garden of eden with no sicknesses.

I am not claiming none of them were sick. Read my posts properly.

I am claiming that "Healing was not random under their covenant, it was not "God may heal, God may not, we just need to trust him", that we gentiles have now under the Body of Christ (Philippians 2:27, Philippians 4:6-7)"

Guojing · Apr 28, 2025

Richard T said:
There is not a single instance of Jesus saying, your sickness is for a purpose for anyone that came to him for healing.

He did remind the nation of Israel in Luke 4:27

And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Do you understand why, before Jesus's first coming to Israel, God did not heal any Israelites of leprosy?

That means the instruction scrolls of Leviticus 13 and 14, regarding leprosy, was basically untouched and collecting dust, by any chief priest, until Matthew 8:2-4.

Richard T · Apr 28, 2025

Guojing said:
There is a reason why he did not advise Timothy, nor Trophimus, to "go to the church member with the gift of healing" in 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20

Look, if you want to believe the Old covenant promises of healing remain valid in the Body of Christ, no scripture passage from Romans to Philemon will convince you otherwise.

We can move on from this and agree to disagree. God bless.

While I do see some NT churches "order" the gifts on demand, they are as the Holy Spirit wills, so while Paul could have sent a handkerchief, he did not. I think this shows the limitations of the gifts of healings. That God does not use the gifts always seems fine to me because of the other means I have cited. But yes, we agree to disagree on what is included in the covenants. Thank you though for all the thought provoking responses.

Richard T · Apr 29, 2025

Guojing said:
He did remind the nation of Israel in Luke 4:27

And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Do you understand why, before Jesus's first coming to Israel, God did not heal any Israelites of leprosy?

No, can you share the purpose of not healing lepers? Was it judgment? There are some other folks too in the OT that were not healed. Leviticus 21:16-23 specifies that anyone with physical defects could not approach the altar to offer sacrifices. Mephibosheth too was an example.
Still, rather than negate what I feel is the promise of healing in the NT, Lev 21, shows the superiority of the new covenant because we are share in the priesthood in the NT. Is the priesthood of all believers biblical? | GotQuestions.org That does not necessarily imply healing but it does solidly show the New Cov is better.

johansen · Apr 29, 2025

Guojing said:
That means the instruction scrolls of Leviticus 13 and 14, regarding leprosy, was basically untouched and collecting dust, by any chief priest, until Matthew 8:2-4.

we don't know that.

were they forgotten about at various points in time? quite possibly. there was an incident where josiah iirc discovered the book of the law and the people were moved to repentance. really makes me wonder what was really going on.

But the laws regarding leppers did not heal them

Guojing · Apr 29, 2025

johansen said:
we don't know that.

You do agree that before Jesus's first coming to Israel, God did not heal any Israelites of leprosy?

johansen · Apr 29, 2025

Guojing said:
You do agree that before Jesus's first coming to Israel, God did not heal any Israelites of leprosy?

We dont know that either.

Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

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