Judgement and Being Judged

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

Christians have a standard because of the cross. How about this scenario:
Johnny is not saved because he does not believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth came in the flesh. Nothing to say that at any time Johnny can be saved as he has until death to come to faith.
Blessings

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

Actually there are many more issues here than what you have brought up.

1. We are not the judge. Even with the brother that was excommunicated from the church in Corinth Paul did not judge that he was unsaved, on the contrary he was judging the sin and removing the hedge of protection of the fellowship of the body so that he might be saved. The only one who can judge who is saved and who isn't is the Lord. So the very act of judging a brother (not the same as judging sin) was rebellion against the Lord. That is a very serious sin, Miriam becomes leprous because she was rebellious and Saul had the anointing leave him and was stripped of all authority because of his rebellion. We are told that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Most don't understand that so let's explain. Witchcraft believes in God, believes in the Spirit and believes in the power of the Spiritual realm. However, witchcraft involves people who wish to use this power independently of the Lord Jesus. Some claim they use the power for good, but the bottom line is they are walking independently of Jesus Christ, the Lord, and that is rebellion.

2. You have not discussed the harm that was done to this brother by the accusation and slander of this one who said they were not saved. Were they stumbled as a result? You skipped over all the harm done in their life as a result of this and jumped to the point where they are dead and caught up to heaven. In Matthew 18 the Lord said that anyone who stumbles one of these little ones it were better for them that a millstone were hung around their neck and they were cast into the sea. Satan is a slanderer. When we slander others we are one with Satan and we are sowing seeds that will then grow up. We are responsible for all the damage that those seeds do. For example, James was the leader of the cult that Paul called "The Concision" that taught people in addition to the blood of Jesus they needed to be circumcised. Later he repented and his epistle is the defining work on how to help those caught up in a cult or groupthink. He concludes his epistle saying that by helping others escape from this behavior he was covering a multitude of sins (his sins) and that this principle applies to all of us. The point is that all sinners have sown seeds that cause harm. Our repentance and bringing forth fruit worthy of repentance is our response to that by sowing seeds that bring forth righteousness.

3. Now according to what you have shared in this post this person is a false prophet or false teacher. According to Peter false teachers bring in damnable heresies. A heresy is a school of thought and "eating cornflakes is necessary for salvation" would be a school of thought. Every doctrine is a "heresy", but only doctrines that deny the items of the faith are damnable heresies. To teach that "eating cornflakes" is a requirement for salvation denies the Lord who bought us and so is a damnable heresy.

If you're uncertain what will happen to you, someone & johnny, then you need to assemble your congregation and hand over yourself, someone & johnny to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that your spirit, someone's spirit and Johnny's spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Click to expand...

Well, you should evaluate your own self by the same standards that you evaluate others.

We will not decide how Jesus will judge.

Jermayn said:

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

Click to expand...

Jesus won't be swayed by how you demand judgment to be. Jesus said not go along with Satan's false accusations.

If you evaluate yourself wrongly, Jesus is able to evaluate us and correct us.

Jermayn said:

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

You are wrong and need to learn the right standards.

And offer what is right, to someone who has wrong standards.

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

Judgment belongs to God, not people on this forum.

How does the Lord judge why some Christians are raptured and some left behind? (Part 1)

Until you have paid the last mite


Luke 12:57 And why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? 58 For as thou art going with thine adversary before the magistrate, on the way give diligence to be quit of him; lest haply he drag thee unto the judge, and the judge shall deliver thee to the officer, and the officer shall cast thee into prison. 59 I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the very last mite.


This verse is not in the gospel of Mark! The saints who go through the tribulation they are paying the last mite. They were not diligent to judge what is right.


Give to everyone that asketh


Luke 6:29 To him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and from him that taketh away thy cloak withhold not thy coat also. 30 Give to every one that asketh thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.


Here is another verse that is not in Mark. Again, the concept is the same, prior to the tribulation you get to embrace this voluntarily, if not you will be forced to embrace it during the tribulation. We know that the point of the Mark of the Beast is to take away all your goods from you and to smite you if you refuse to worship the beast. You had the chance to do this voluntarily but there are many Christians that have compromised with the world. They think they are far wiser than the Jesus freaks who just make all Christians look bad.


What happens to those who are led by the blind guides?


Luke 6:37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released: 38 give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again. 39 And he spake also a parable unto them, Can the blind guide the blind? shall they not both fall into a pit? 40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher. 41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42 Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me cast out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.


I love the comparison with Mark. In Mark there is no warning about the blind guiding the blind and both falling into the pit. Nor is there the warning about beholding the mote in your brother's eye. In other words, if you are in the tribulation you have already fallen into the pit, you were led by the blind guide, and you were guilty of beholding the mote in your brother’s eye while ignoring the beam in your own eye, so, there is no point in warning about that any more.


Brother shall deliver brother up to death


Mark 13:9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations. 11 And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.


This account is only in Mark. It sounds very much like what will happen during the tribulation.


Only in Luke


The conclusion



Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much: and he that is unrighteous in a very little is unrighteous also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another’s, who will give you that which is your own?



Luke 15 & 16 have parables that are unique to the book of Luke. The parable of the lost sheep, the woman and the lost coin, the prodigal son, and the unjust steward. This is the conclusion to those accounts! This gives a whole new viewpoint on these stories.



If the shepherd does not go and find the lost sheep then he is unrighteous and unfaithful shepherd. If the woman does not sweep the house to find that lost coin she is unjust and unfaithful. If the father is not praying and seeking for the prodigal son then he is unjust and unfaithful, and if the steward doesn't figure out a way to sell his master's goods then he is unjust and unfaithful. This is a warning to the believers, if you are unjust or unfaithful you won't be raptured prior to the tribulation. It is pointless to say this in Mark, they can see why they weren't raptured, they were not faithful with the unrighteous mammon, hence the Lord did not entrust them with the true riches.



If you have been entrusted with 100 sheep to care for then you better care for them. When I was a teacher I would be held to account, not for the kids getting 90s or 100s, but I had to make an account for every kid failing the class. They wanted to see what actions I had taken to help that particular kid. Had I been calling the child's parents to let them know? Did I make accommodations, did I allow this child to make up missing work, retake tests, etc.



What about that missing teaching, like a gold coin? What about the rapture, everyone misplaced that one, let's find out what that is all about. Did you shrug that off or did you sweep the house?



Can you imagine the father would be judged for losing the prodigal son? Based on the context that is what is meant when he says "32 But it was meet to make merry and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

Everything about this story makes it seem that the Father is a good guy and the prodigal son is profligate. But the context and this conclusion tells us that the children have been entrusted to you by God, if you lose a son or a daughter will anyone entrust true riches to you?



Then you have the unrighteous steward. We need to get this message out, we need to get this word out. It does no good if it sits on the shelf. If you need to put it on sale do so!


You can’t have your cake and eat it too.


Luke 9:57 And as they went on the way, a certain man said unto him, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 58 Jesus said unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 But he said unto him, Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but go thou and publish abroad the kingdom of God. 61 And another also said, I will follow thee, Lord; but first suffer me to bid farewell to them that are at my house. 62 But Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


This is not in Mark, again think of the Gospel of Mark to those in the tribulation. It is completely unnecessary to say this because it is obvious. At that time if you want to follow the Lord you won't have any place to lay your head.


This is the problem, many Christians have wanted to have their cake (salvation) and eat it to (enjoy this world). They have nice jobs, well funded churches, and so they didn't want to hear about the Lord, or His coming, or the word, and they pressured the pastors to just tell them what they wanted to hear. So then prior to the tribulation you need this warning, but once the tribulation takes place this word is no longer necessary.

How does the Lord judge why some Christians are raptured and some left behind? (Part 2)



Do you think the Lord came to give peace in the earth?


Luke 12:51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law.


Here is another example of a verse that is in Luke but not in Mark. If you were in the tribulation you would not be thinking anything like this. You would already know about the division. No one would be thinking that to be a Christian was to "give peace in the earth". Already they use this "thought" to condemn those who would not get the vaccine or who are protesting against the mandate. "Good Christians would bring peace" and other non biblical garbage.


Miraculous provision during the tribulation


Mark 6:45 And straightway he constrained his disciples to enter into the boat, and to go before him unto the other side to Bethsaida, while he himself sendeth the multitude away. 46 And after he had taken leave of them, he departed into the mountain to pray. 47 And when even was come, the boat was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land. 48 And seeing them distressed in rowing, for the wind was contrary unto them, about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking on the sea; and he would have passed by them: 49 but they, when they saw him walking on the sea, supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; 50 for they all saw him, and were troubled. But he straightway spake with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. 51 And he went up unto them into the boat; and the wind ceased: and they were sore amazed in themselves; 52 for they understood not concerning the loaves, but their heart was hardened.


This account is in Matthew and Mark but there is no mention in Luke! During the tribulation believers will not be able to work, so during that time the believers will need the Lord's miraculous provisions like being able to walk on water. We don't see that prior to the tribulation. That said many have seen the Lord's miraculous provision for their ministry, but apparently what we have seen prior to the tribulation will only be a foretaste of these miracles that they will see during the tribulation.


Pet dogs


Mark 7:24 And from thence he arose, and went away into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered into a house, and would have no man know it; and he could not be hid. 25 But straightway a woman, whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, having heard of him, came and fell down at his feet. 26 Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by race. And she besought him that he would cast forth the demon out of her daughter. 27 And he said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. 28 But she answered and saith unto him, Yea, Lord; even the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the demon is gone out of thy daughter. 30 And she went away unto her house, and found the child laid upon the bed, and the demon gone out.


This story is in Matthew and Mark but not in Luke! The Christians and the Jews that receive Jesus at this time will be completely humbled, like this woman, seeing themselves as pet dogs beneath the master's table. Think about it, why weren't they raptured before the tribulation? They may have seen themselves as experts, guides to the blind, etc. How humbling it would be to be left behind, it would be like that person who had set themselves down at the chief seat in the wedding feast only to be told to get up so someone else could have their seat and then in shame they take the least prominent seat. Being left behind will deal with your ego.


Get thee behind me Satan for thou mindest not the things of God


Luke 9:22 saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.


This is the account in Luke, compare this with Mark:


Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.


Luke does not have this part of Peter telling Jesus He doesn't need to go to the cross! This is the difference, you have Christians who teach this, that you don't have to go to the cross, being left behind to go through the tribulation is equivalent to Jesus saying "Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men." This is the fundamental difference between Luke and Mark.


Luke 9:23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


Can you believe it, this is not in Mark! Those who are raptured before the tribulation received this word, those who are left behind are those who tried to save their life and as a result lost it. If you are a Christian and trying to gain the whole world you should be warned! If you are a Christian who is ashamed of the Lord and of His words, you need to be warned!

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

We are not to judge least we be judged. We are to pray for our fellow mankind. God does the judging,heal, caring, etc.

Jermayn said:

Question for the group:

If someone says, "So-and-so is not saved because x, y, and z", will they be judged by that same standard?

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

I say "Johnny is going to end up in Hell because he doesn't eat corn flakes for breakfast every morning." We both die and Johnny goes to Heaven because breakfast cereal doesn't matter, HOWEVER...my sincere belief is that you have to eat corn flakes to be saved.

What happens to me.

If I require something that God does not require for salvation...
Am I just wrong? Or am I in danger of trusting in my own standard rather than the cross?

Click to expand...

According to scripture if you feel it's a sin and you do it, it becomes a sin to you.

Now where you'll end up is a matter for the Lord, no one can accurately make that assessment.

truthuprootsevil said:

According to scripture if you feel it's a sin and you do it, it becomes a sin to you.

Now where you'll end up is a matter for the Lord, no one can accurately make that assessment.

Click to expand...

I totally agree. The bible also tells us if we sin and confess that sin, we will be forgiven

jmldn2 said:

We are not to judge least we be judged. We are to pray for our fellow mankind. God does the judging,heal, caring, etc.

Click to expand...

Yes, and humans are terrible judges. We have too much garbage in our brains. Maybe because our spiritual parents messed around with the tree.

Laodicean60 said:

Yes, and humans are terrible judges. We have too much garbage in our brains. Maybe because our spiritual parents messed around with the tree.

Click to expand...

I have enough of my own faults to keep me busy to be concern over other people.

jmldn2 said:

I have enough of my own faults to keep me busy to be concern over other people.

Click to expand...

Amen, You got that right but we humans like to critizize the dog poop in our neighbors yard when our yard is stinkin up the neighborhood.

jmldn2 said:

We are not to judge least we be judged.

Click to expand...

Hello jmldn2, et al, that's what it says .. e.g. Matthew 7:1; Luke 6:37. The question is, did the Lord mean, "DO NOT JUDGE", ~period~, or did the He actually mean something else?

For instance, if the Lord Jesus meant "do not judge" PERIOD, then why does He immediately begin to speak of the "ways" that we choose to judge others (in v2), or bother giving us an example & explanation of what He meant/wants us to avoid doing (hypocritical judgments) in the following three verses (v3-5)?




Then there's v6 to consider. What are we to make of it (Matthew 7:6, that is) and how can we obey it (judge/discern who the "dogs" and "swine" are, IOW) if "do not judge" is meant as a blanket statement covering every kind of judgment in every situation?


Lastly, if "do not judge" is a command without any exceptions from the Lord, then what do we do with this?


So, while our judging/discerning the motivation(s) of another's heart is almost always wrong, it seems to me that we are commanded to judge the ~behavior~ of others (what they say and/or do, what is good/bad, right/wrong, righteous/sinful according to the Scriptures), for both our sake and the sake of others (particularly in the church), and for the sake of the sinning brother or sister in Christ, as well, yes .. e.g. Matthew 18:15-17 cf 1 Corinthians 11:32.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the above was all from Matthew 7 alone. Perhaps we should take a look at what the rest of the Bible has to say, too?

The other question that comes to mind is this, is our judgment/discernment of others ALWAYS a bad thing, or does the Bible tell us that it should actually be considered to be a blessing to others, and if so, in what ways/in what situations does the Bible tell us that it is?

St_Worm2 said:

Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Click to expand...

I think God summed it up at last. Humans are terrible judges, and sometimes, when I walk through Walmart, I catch myself looking at people, whether it's the clothes they wear or tattoos, and hear their language. What about new Christians like I was several years ago, I still drank. If you "compare" me to a lot of Christians, you'd think I wasn't saved. See, God knows everyone's heart. It's not up to me to judge a person's heart. We are ALL sinners, and sinners judging sinners can not judge like God.

I believe the false prophets are not regular Christians; they are the ones trying to take Christians away from the faith.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello jmldn2, et al, that's what it says .. e.g. Matthew 7:1; Luke 6:37. The question is, did the Lord mean, "DO NOT JUDGE", ~period~, or did the He actually mean something else?

For instance, if the Lord Jesus meant "do not judge" PERIOD, then why does He immediately begin to speak of the "ways" that we choose to judge others (in v2), or bother giving us an example & explanation of what He meant/wants us to avoid doing (hypocritical judgments) in the following three verses (v3-5)?

Matthew 7​

1 Do not judge so that you will not be judged. ​

2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. ​

3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ​

4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? ​

5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. ​

Then there's v6 to consider. What are we to make of it (Matthew 7:6, that is) and how can we obey it (judge/discern who the "dogs" and "swine" are, IOW) if "do not judge" is meant as a blanket statement covering every kind of judgment in every situation?

Matthew 7​

6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. ​

Lastly, if "do not judge" is a command without any exceptions from the Lord, then what do we do with this?

Matthew 7​

15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ​

16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ​

17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. ​

18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. ​

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ​

20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.​

So, while our judging/discerning the motivation(s) of another's heart is almost always wrong, it seems to me that we are commanded to judge the ~behavior~ of others (what they say and/or do, what is good/bad, right/wrong, righteous/sinful according to the Scriptures), for both our sake and the sake of others (particularly in the church), and for the sake of the sinning brother or sister in Christ, as well, yes .. e.g. Matthew 18:15-17 cf 1 Corinthians 11:32.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the above was all from Matthew 7 alone. Perhaps we should take a look at what the rest of the Bible has to say, too?

The other question that comes to mind is this, is our judgment/discernment of others ALWAYS a bad thing, or does the Bible tell us that it should actually be considered to be a blessing to others, and if so, in what ways/in what situations does the Bible tell us that it is?

Click to expand...

I interpret this slightly different.

The Lord did not tell us not to judge. Rather He said with what judgment you judge you shall be judged. That is simply a warning not to judge others, but it loses all power if you are judging yourself: "With what judgement you judge yourself you shall be judged".

So I agree it is a mistake to simplify this to say the Lord said not to judge. What He warned about was judging others, by all means you can still judge yourself. He tells us clearly to focus on the beam that is in our own eye to remove that. Likewise, instead of judging others as "dogs" and "swine" look in the mirror. Is there any tinge of the flesh or self in you?

Laodicean60 said:

We are ALL sinners, and sinners judging sinners can not judge like God.

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Hello again Laodicean60, while it's true that we can neither see nor judge the motivations of the heart like God can, are we not commanded by Him to judge what we can see (the behaviors of others, IOW, what the Bible calls "fruit" .. e.g. Matthew 7:15-20) for the sake of the sinner (and/or the sake of others and ourselves)?

Laodicean60 said:

I believe the false prophets are not regular Christians; they are the ones trying to take Christians away from the faith.

Click to expand...

It could, of course, be argued that they are not Christians at all, but instead, wolves in sheep clothing, yes? Of course, such judgments (that someone is not a "regular" Christian, or a "true" Christian) would mean that we would be judging the heart of another (that we cannot clearly see) instead of the "fruit" (what they say/do) that we can.

But, if we are not to judge even that, the "fruit" that a tree bears, that is, then we must accept the bad fruit with the good and say nothing against it to others, whatever the bad tree says/does/teaches, IOW, even when our judgment is meant, for instance, for the sake of those who are still immature in the faith and do not understand the danger that they are in.

This, I simply cannot accept as being Biblical (or commanded/meant by the Lord in Matthew 7:1). IOW, I do not believe that He said, "do not judge", PERIOD. Rather, to Cain's chagrin , I believe that we are called to patiently and lovingly watch out for one another as our brothers' and sisters' "keepers" in this life (especially when we know something of the truth that they do not, or have, perhaps, forgotten and can no longer see like we can).

For instance,


It seems to me that discernment/judgment is good whenever it is done patiently & lovingly for the sake of the good of others and for God's glory, alone (whether it be for a sinning brother or sister to help restore them to full fellowship in the church and with the Lord, or as a means of helping an unbeliever understand why he/she is in such dire need of the Savior).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I get what you are saying about the problems that often arise when we do not judge others rightly/righteously (and we should discern when that happens and help people see what they are doing, yes?). We are not to hypocritically judge or judge others according to what "we" think is appropriate or acceptable to us personally, but it seems clear that the Lord does call us to lovingly be our "brother's/sister's keeper" ... for their good/for His glory, even though none of us are perfect like He is.

St_Worm2 said:

But, if we are not to judge even that, the "fruit" that a tree bears, that is, then we must accept the bad fruit with the good and say nothing against it to others, whatever the bad tree says/does/teaches, IOW, even when our judgment is meant, for instance, for the sake of those who are still immature in the faith and do not understand the danger that they are in.

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The one who shows questionable fruit is the one I'll be comfortable with now, satan will come as an angel of light, which most judgmental Christians will be deceived by. Everyone has different maturities as a Christian and I'm still on the tit. I don't want to judge negatively or wrongly, I sometimes do because there is the love thy neighbor part that reminds me not to.

znpaaneah said:

I interpret this slightly different.

The Lord did not tell us not to judge. Rather He said with what judgment you judge you shall be judged. That is simply a warning not to judge others, but it loses all power if you are judging yourself: "With what judgement you judge yourself you shall be judged".

So I agree it is a mistake to simplify this to say the Lord said not to judge. What He warned about was judging others, by all means you can still judge yourself. He tells us clearly to focus on the beam that is in our own eye to remove that. Likewise, instead of judging others as "dogs" and "swine" look in the mirror. Is there any tinge of the flesh or self in you?

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Hello znpaaneah, I believe that while we are, of course, to judge ourselves, I believe the Bible tells us to do far more than that.

Please see what I just said about this in the preceding post (#18) as I believe that I addressed most of what you just said there.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David