Convince me of Annihilationism

Jeff Saunders · Apr 1, 2025

Butch5 said:
You're welcome and I agree. It seems much more merciful. Especially if you consider what I wrote in post 17. My view on man is monism. I see from Scripture that man consists of the dust of the earth and that when God breathed into the man the breath or life the man became a living soul. I view man as a living being that consists of the body and the breath of life from God. When that breath is taken away the body returns to the dust. This leaves no room for any part of man to live on after death. This is what I see in Genesis 2. If that's the case the only way for man to be tormented forever would be if God kept the man alive. I don't see that in a merciful God.

So you do not see man as body, soul, and spirit ?

Jeff Saunders · Apr 1, 2025

friend of said:
Why? Isn't everyone in New Jerusalem?

No, scripture in Rev says that only those who have Gods name on them can go into the New Jerusalem. Assuming that's to be taken literal. That is why it talks about those on the New Earth that can't go in.

Jeff Saunders · Apr 1, 2025

Dkh587 said:
Even with all these threads, I still haven’t seen where God or the Prophets foretold us about the wicked being consciously burned alive forever

That's because its a pagan ideology not from the God of scripture.

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2025

JulieB67 said:
I choose to believe Christ's teaching when he states our Father is able to destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell.

In Revelation he calls it the second death and then death and hell are both destroyed in the Lake of Fire (a consuming fire). That's what a fire does. In Malachi it states the wicked will be turned to rubble and ashes. They will simply cease to exist. And Christ states he makes all things new and that the former things will be passed away. The Lake of Fire is a former thing. And it's as Isaiah states the remembrance of them shall not even come to mind. Which makes perfect sense.

I grew up on on the ECT but upon reading the Word that's not God's nature at all to torture someone forever. But if they don't repent (change of heart and mind) and don't want to have anything to do with our Father/Christ he will blot them out.

He states "Do I have any pleasure that the wicked should perish"? He doesn't even want to them to perish. We know that's why he's so long suffering. But if he doesn't want them to even perish we're honestly supposed to believe he would have pleasure in torturing them forever? I don't believe so. That makes no sense at all. It's either life or death. If we take the bible as a whole that's what it's telling us.

The smoke rises up forever.

And unquenchable fire just means it can't be put out by human hands. But it will cease to exist after it's purpose.

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Can you provide scripture to back up this statement? "And unquenchable fire just means it can't be put out by human hands. But it will cease to exist after it's purpose."

JulieB67 · Apr 11, 2025

Der Alte said:
Can you provide scripture to back up this statement? "And unquenchable fire just means it can't be put out by human hands. But it will cease to exist after it's purpose.

When God kindles a fire it cannot be quenched. And what does a fire do? It consumes until there is nothing left. We see that the wicked will be turned to ash, rubble-leaving neither root or branch in Malachi.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That's what a fire does.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

So we see here that it will cease to exist. It served it's purpose. Which was to destroy death and both hell and death are thrown into the Lake of Fire -second death. And then the first heaven and earth are passed away. We cannot say therefore that they exist in any fashion because Christ afterwards states "it is done and I make all things new".

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

All means all.

In many of your statements on this, you post this verse to prove hell is still going on -

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

But that's just Christ reiterating what will happen at Judgement Day. We see in verse 4 and 5 that the former things are passed away and that Christ makes "all" things new after Judgement Day.

He's talking to John in the present sense at that moment and states write for these things are true and faithful. And he states in verse 6-

Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

He states "It is done" That's it. The former things are passed away and he makes all things new.

He then goes on to reiterate what will happen to those who overcome -

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

And what will happen who don't overcome -

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Again, verses 7 and 8 are just reiterating what "will" happen. And we know the second death occurs at Judgement Day.

I choose to believe Christ when he states the Lake of Fire is the second death and that the former things are passed away. You apparently don't believe that but that is what the scriptures state. And again, he states he makes "all" things new. I choose to believe those words, again, apparently you don't.

Dan Perez · Apr 13, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
That's because its a pagan ideology not from the God of scripture.

ND THE BOOKE OF Rev 20:10 that the devil and false prophet will be and shall be tormented day and night for EVER

and EVER .

THEN in Rev 20:14 and death and hell were CAST into the Lake of FIRE and this is the SECOND DEATH .

Then is verse 15 , and whosoever was not found WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE was CAST into the LAKE of FIRE

And today a believer saved by Grace BODY goes to a GRAVE !

And SOUL and SPRIT GO WHERE ??

An unbelievers BODY goes to a GRAVE !

And his SOUL goes to the LAKE OF FIRE

AND his SPIRIT goes back to God that GAVE IT as written in ECC 12:7 !

dan p

Der Alte · Apr 14, 2025

JulieB67 said:
When God kindles a fire it cannot be quenched. And what does a fire do? It consumes until there is nothing left. We see that the wicked will be turned to ash, rubble-leaving neither root or branch in Malachi.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That's what a fire does.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

So we see here that it will cease to exist. It served it's purpose. Which was to destroy death and both hell and death are thrown into the Lake of Fire -second death. And then the first heaven and earth are passed away. We cannot say therefore that they exist in any fashion because Christ afterwards states "it is done and I make all things new".

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

All means all.

In many of your statements on this, you post this verse to prove hell is still going on -

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

But that's just Christ reiterating what will happen at Judgement Day. We see in verse 4 and 5 that the former things are passed away and that Christ makes "all" things new after Judgement Day.

He's talking to John in the present sense at that moment and states write for these things are true and faithful. And he states in verse 6-

Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

He states "It is done" That's it. The former things are passed away and he makes all things new.

He then goes on to reiterate what will happen to those who overcome -

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

And what will happen who don't overcome -

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Again, verses 7 and 8 are just reiterating what "will" happen. And we know the second death occurs at Judgement Day.

I choose to believe Christ when he states the Lake of Fire is the second death and that the former things are passed away. You apparently don't believe that but that is what the scriptures state. And again, he states he makes "all" things new. I choose to believe those words, again, apparently you don't.

Somewhat presumptive. Rather than casting aspersions I state what I believe. The complete Bible not just selective verses which support my assumptions/presuppositions. While the lake of fire LOF is called "the second death" more than once not one verse says that anyone/any thing cast into the LOF dies. In fact Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

And in the last chapter of Rev.

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Five more vss. the end.

JulieB67 · Apr 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
The complete Bible not just selective verses

This is true. Which is why when we take the bible as a whole, it's always life or death.

Der Alte said:
more than once not one verse says that anyone/any thing cast into the LOF dies.

I think Christ would like to think we have some intelligence in that in calling it the Second Death it means exactly that -you die, perish, etc. Does he actually have to spell it out in that- "this is the Second Death and anyone who's thrown in dies"? I mean, he literally calls it the Second Death. And it's basically a second witness to his teaching in Matthew 10:28 which also follow Malachi which states the wicked will be burned up, neither branch or root left.

Der Alte said:
In fact Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death.

Because as I pointed out, the former things will be passed away, including death which is the last thing destroyed. Christ states it is done.

Der Alte said:
Revelation 22:11(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.Revelation 22:15(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Five more vss. the end.

I knew you would follow up with these as you normally do. But again, the angel is talking in the present tense at the moment and describing how it will be. Of course there will not be dogs, sorcerers, whoremonger, etc. Because they have been destroyed -body and soul in hell which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Again, this is just reiterating what will happen. Those who do his commandments have the right to the tree of life and may enter in. And there will be no dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers and murderers, etc. Of course they won't be there. But it doesn't mean they are still burning in the Lake of Fire. Again, Christ states it is done and he makes all things new.

Believe what you will though...

Der Alte · Apr 17, 2025

JulieB67 said:
This is true. Which is why when we take the bible as a whole, it's always life or death.

I think Christ would like to think we have some intelligence in that in calling it the Second Death it means exactly that -you die, perish, etc. Does he actually have to spell it out in that- "this is the Second Death and anyone who's thrown in dies"? I mean, he literally calls it the Second Death. And it's basically a second witness to his teaching in Matthew 10:28 which also follow Malachi which states the wicked will be burned up, neither branch or root left.

Because as I pointed out, the former things will be passed away, including death which is the last thing destroyed. Christ states it is done.

I knew you would follow up with these as you normally do. But again, the angel is talking in the present tense at the moment and describing how it will be. Of course there will not be dogs, sorcerers, whoremonger, etc. Because they have been destroyed -body and soul in hell which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Again, this is just reiterating what will happen. Those who do his commandments have the right to the tree of life and may enter in. And there will be no dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers and murderers, etc. Of course they won't be there. But it doesn't mean they are still burning in the Lake of Fire. Again, Christ states it is done and he makes all things new.

Believe what you will though...

A lot of presumptions and presuppositions without scriptural support.,

JulieB67 · Apr 17, 2025

Der Alte said:
A lot of presumptions and presuppositions without scriptural support.

I believe Christ calling the Lake of Fire -the Second Death scriptural support. In calling it that he doesn't have to spell out what's going to happen. We know "death" will happen. The second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can kill (destroy fully in the Greek0 both body and soul in hell. Again- scriptural support. Which also coincides with the teaching in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up leaving neither root or branch- scriptural support.

You just fail to realize that the verses you post in Rev 21 and 22 are just the reiteration of what "will" happen to those who overcome and those who don't. Which is decided at Judgement Day.

We shall see in the end...

Jeff Saunders · Apr 18, 2025

JulieB67 said:
I believe Christ calling the Lake of Fire -the Second Death scriptural support. In calling it that he doesn't have to spell out what's going to happen. We know "death" will happen. The second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can kill (destroy fully in the Greek0 both body and soul in hell. Again- scriptural support. Which also coincides with the teaching in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up leaving neither root or branch- scriptural support.

You just fail to realize that the verses you post in Rev 21 and 22 are just the reiteration of what "will" happen to those who overcome and those who don't. Which is decided at Judgement Day.

We shall see in the end...

If everyone receives a forever body after our mortal body dies what makes you think that God doesn't give forever souls after the second death?

JulieB67 · Apr 18, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
If everyone receives a forever body after our mortal body dies what makes you think that God doesn't give forever souls after the second death?

Because it's not scriptural.

Again, all throughout the Bible it's life or death.
We have scripture stating that the reason the Lord is so long suffering is because he doesn't want anyone to perish. He wants all to come to repentance . If what you're believing is true, that verse doesn't even make sense.

If everyone were ultimately saved that verse has no meaning at all. And at the end we see no one come out of the Lake of Fire.

Plus Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 makes it pretty clear both body and soul are destroyed in hell. If we take the word destroy back to the Greek it means destroy fully. At that point God would be making someone brand new and that's just not biblical after the Second Death. And the Second Death has power and if someone lives after that, it would cease to have any power over anyone.

Also, God wants us to freely love him and come to repentance (change of heart and mind) out of our own hearts.

Jipsah · Apr 18, 2025

Der Alte said:
While the lake of fire LOF is called "the second death" more than once not one verse says that anyone/any thing cast into the LOF dies.

But in damnationist doctrine, no one ever dies at all, do they? It's eternal life for all hands, some in bliss, some under torture. "Death" never really means "death", except in the sense that someone stopped breathing.

Der Alte said:
In fact Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death.

But in your doctrine, there never was. The good and the bad just live on in different places, one being a nice place, and one being a torture chamber. The Wages of sin isn't death, it's eternal life in torture.

Der Alte said:
Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death,

Except that what your lot call "death" continues eternally,

Der Alte said:
neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain

Except for folks in hell, who have to be kept alive to endure eternal torment.

Der Alte said:
: for the former things are passed away

Except hell.

Der Alte said:
And in the last chapter of Rev.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Five more vss. the end.

Well, that eliminates any need for evangelism, doesn't it?

Der Alte · Apr 23, 2025

JulieB67 said:
I believe Christ calling the Lake of Fire -the Second Death scriptural support. In calling it that he doesn't have to spell out what's going to happen. We know "death" will happen. The second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can kill (destroy fully in the Greek0 both body and soul in hell. Again- scriptural support. Which also coincides with the teaching in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up leaving neither root or branch- scriptural support.

You just fail to realize that the verses you post in Rev 21 and 22 are just the reiteration of what "will" happen to those who overcome and those who don't. Which is decided at Judgement Day.

We shall see in the end...

FYI Revelation 21 and 22 describe what happens in the end. Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

And in the last chapter of Rev.

Revelation 22:11

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:15

(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Five more vss. the end.
Perhaps you can quote scripture which clearly shows this is not the end but some earlier time.

JulieB67 · Apr 23, 2025

Der Alte said:
Perhaps you can quote scripture which clearly shows this is not the end but some earlier time.

It's all an earlier time and we are being told "what will happen" We know none of this has happened yet. This is prophecy. But we need to know which verses describe the end and which verses bring them back to John in his present state of writing about what will happen.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

John is still describing what he is seeing at the end after Judgement Day. He notes that that the first heaven and earth are passed away.

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

He's still describing and he hears that great voice..

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

That great voice is telling him that God shall wipe away their tears, telling them that there will be no more death, etc because the former things are passed away.

The next voice coming from the throne takes us to John's present -
Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

He tells him that he makes all things new and to write: for these words are true and faithful.

We have to see when something is being described, back to John's present state and what is simply a reiteration.

Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Christ states it is done. So anything afterwards are just descriptions of the New Jerusalem and warnings to the reader.

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

We know that happens at Judgement

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And we know that happens at Judgement.

And we know death is done away with. So the second death is final. Which again we know happens at Judgement as we saw in chapter 20.

Der Alte said:
And in the last chapter of Rev.
Revelation 22:11(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.Revelation 22:15(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem Rev 21:2] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:10 "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

He's talking to the reader of this prophecy. He's stating to whomever is reading, if they want to still be unjust then still be unjust, etc. He that is righteous, let him be righteous still. That is is talking in the present.

Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

He hasn't returned yet so this isn't the end. Again, he's reiterating what will happen to those who overcome and those who don't. You asked for a verse showing this isn't the end, well, we can see that it's not the end. He's talking about his return.

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

And of course the city is without those because the former things are passed away.

Der Alte · Friday at 2:55 PM

JulieB67 said:
It's all an earlier time and we are being told "what will happen" We know none of this has happened yet. This is prophecy. But we need to know which verses describe the end and which verses bring them back to John in his present state of writing about what will happen.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

John is still describing what he is seeing at the end after Judgement Day. He notes that that the first heaven and earth are passed away.

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

He's still describing and he hears that great voice..

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

That great voice is telling him that God shall wipe away their tears, telling them that there will be no more death, etc because the former things are passed away.

The next voice coming from the throne takes us to John's present -
Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

He tells him that he makes all things new and to write: for these words are true and faithful.

We have to see when something is being described, back to John's present state and what is simply a reiteration.

Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Christ states it is done. So anything afterwards are just descriptions of the New Jerusalem and warnings to the reader.

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

We know that happens at Judgement

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And we know that happens at Judgement.

And we know death is done away with. So the second death is final. Which again we know happens at Judgement as we saw in chapter 20.

Revelation 22:10 "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

He's talking to the reader of this prophecy. He's stating to whomever is reading, if they want to still be unjust then still be unjust, etc. He that is righteous, let him be righteous still. That is is talking in the present.

Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

He hasn't returned yet so this isn't the end. Again, he's reiterating what will happen to those who overcome and those who don't. You asked for a verse showing this isn't the end, well, we can see that it's not the end. He's talking about his return.

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

And of course the city is without those because the former things are passed away.

Incorrect. The city in Rev 22 is the "new Jerusalem" dropped down from heaven.

Revelation 21:2

(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And the "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" are outside the new Jerusalem.

JulieB67 · Saturday at 7:55 AM

Der Alte said:
Incorrect. The city in Rev 22 is the "new Jerusalem" dropped down from heaven.

I never stated it wasn't. I said of course the city is without those because the former things are passed away. We have a new heaven and a new earth. The LOF is a former thing at that point and is no longer being described at the end with the new heaven and earth. It's mentioned as the Second Death in chapter 21 which we know happens at Judgement Day. It doesn't have to mean they are literally outside of the gates at that moment.

The Greek word can be used figuratively as well. Figuratively it can mean -away. And again, we know from the Word that the former things are passed away and that all things are made new.

And the verse has to be used in conjunction with the prior -

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Convince me of Annihilationism

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Blood Drinker

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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