Real or fake news about Hamas?

FireDragon76 said:

Religious expression is more than doctrine, it also touches upon sociological, psychological, and cultural factors that have nothing to do with doctrine.

Click to expand...

But then why is it still more pronounced even when they're living within societies that are modernized and much more progressive?

For instance, public polling showed that 78% of British Muslims thought the Danish cartoonist should've been prosecuted...and of them 24% said violence is an appropriate response for such insults of the faith.

These are people living in Modern-day England.

Do you think we'd see similar polling results if we were to ask the same questions of British Catholics about a satirical cartoon about the Pope, or if we asked Amish in Lancaster about Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" song parody?

ThatRobGuy said:

Then why does that type of behavior seem to be so much more pervasive and pronounced in that religion than many of the others?

Click to expand...

Islamic countries in general have low homicide rates. Indonesia, which has the largest population of Muslims in the world and is also the home of close to 30 million Christians, has a homicide rate of around 0.4 per 100,000. Saudi Arabia, a country that follows a very strict interpretation of Islam, has a homicide rate of around 1.3 per 100,000. In Lebanon which has roughly a 60/40 Muslim to Christian population, the homicide rate is around 2.5 per 100,000.


(Source)

ThatRobGuy said:

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123)

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).

- Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Quran 8:12)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Quran 9:5)

Click to expand...

Not a single one of those verses call for the killing of unbelievers simply for being unbelievers. You can't take verses from the Qur'an that say "kill the unbelievers" and apply them without knowing the surrounding verses and the historical context behind them. Muslims understand the historical and cultural context in which the Qur'an was written, and this is why Muslims aren't going around killing non-Muslims by the thousands every day.

ThatRobGuy said:

And if you start to delve into the concept of "honor killings" (which the consider a righteous death penalty, and not murder) that's a whole other can of worms.

Click to expand...

Honor killings are cultural and not related to religion.

Honour killing is not restricted to the Muslim communities. It is paramount to realize the cross-cultural dimension of honour killing. It is not restricted by class, caste, region or religion.

In Upper Egypt, it was found that Coptic families (Egyptian Christians) were statistically as likely as Muslim families to commit such crimes. Similarly, it is reported that honour killing takes place in the Palestinian Christian community in Palestine.

"It doesn‘t have any direct connection with religion at all, It is not unique to any particular religion. We see it among Hindus. We see it among Jews and Christians in the (Middle East) region. It is also not limited to the Middle East or the Arab world."

ThatRobGuy said:

But then why is it still more pronounced even when they're living within societies that are modernized and much more progressive?

Click to expand...

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Poorly integrated, marginalized young people are bound to be radicalized by extremist ideologies in general. If anything, the last ten years of US history has enough stories of young white and latino men turning to similarly violent redemption stories to try to find purpose and meaning.

ThatRobGuy said:

For instance, public polling showed that 78% of British Muslims thought the Danish cartoonist should've been prosecuted...

Click to expand...

In many European countries, blasephemy and insulting religion with the intention to hurt a group of people and cause social disorder is against the law, so it's not entirely unreasonable. This predates controversies around Islam.

ThatRobGuy said:

and of them 24% said violence is an appropriate response for such insults of the faith.

Click to expand...

Similar surveys of Americans find white Americans endorsing similar levels of violence in response to their own taboos and insecurities.

ThatRobGuy said:

Do you think we'd see similar polling results if we were to ask the same questions of British Catholics about a satirical cartoon about the Pope, or if we asked Amish in Lancaster about Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" song parody?

Click to expand...

Firstly, Amish live a disciplined life in a manner that rejects all violence under any circumstances, a rather extreme position, even among Christians, so it's not an apt comparison.

Wierd Al's "Amish Paradise" is intended to be farcical more than blatantly insulting. It comments just as much on an American culture that is ignorant of Amish life as much as it does on the Amish themselves.

I welcome the discussion.

The thread was about the publication "Hamas Today".

Although the discussions of how different religions may or may not foster radical and
violent fringe groups, that was not the topic.

Personally, I don't bother to read (or listen to) Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, or
all the other "conspiracy theory" generators WHO MAY CLAIM TO
REPRESENT CHRISTIANITY. For those who do, that does not mean that
they (Carlson and Jones) represent Christianity.

Nor do the detractors of Christianity, often represent Christianity.
---------- ----------

I appreciate the referenced comments on how Islam has open doors
(theologically) for the abuse of non-Muslims.

Stephen3141 said:

I welcome the discussion.

The thread was about the publication "Hamas Today".

Although the discussions of how different religions may or may not foster radical and
violent fringe groups, that was not the topic.

Personally, I don't bother to read (or listen to) Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, or
all the other "conspiracy theory" generators WHO MAY CLAIM TO
REPRESENT CHRISTIANITY. For those who do, that does not mean that
they (Carlson and Jones) represent Christianity.

Nor do the detractors of Christianity, often represent Christianity.
---------- ----------

I appreciate the referenced comments on how Islam has open doors
(theologically) for the abuse of non-Muslims.

Click to expand...

"Us vs. them" is a frequent dynamic that develops when human beings don't follow the better angels of their nature, but instead choose to follow a demagogue or authority figure, and has little or nothing to do with religion per se. Alot of the nasty stuff, for instance, that happened during the Cultural Revolution in China ended up coming down to simple tribalism, and wasn't motivated by ideology, but a sense that some out-group, usually a rival paramilitary faction, had wrong the group in some way, and there was a score to settle.

This video explains a famous psychology experiment that demonstrated how tribalism can work to provoke animus and contempt towards another group, one that is just the result of random selection and not inherited characteristics or ideology:

FireDragon76 said:

Similar surveys of Americans find white Americans endorsing similar levels of violence in response to their own taboos and insecurities.

Click to expand...

I'd be curious to read them.

First, not sure what the "white" part has to do with anything. "white" isn't a religion.

I've combed through a lot of surveys, and haven't yet stumbled across one that says that says that 78% of Christians favor Criminal prosecution for someone making fun of Jesus (or a quarter of them suggesting that violence is the appropriate response to such a matter)

FireDragon76 said:

Firstly, Amish live a disciplined life in a manner that rejects all violence under any circumstances, a rather extreme position, even among Christians, so it's not an apt comparison.

Click to expand...

That just proves my point though, religion does drive behavior.

The fact that the Amish reject violence in that way, and some Asian religious practices are so anti-violence, that they'll wear screens over their mouths as to avoid accidently ingesting/killing bugs, while others find corporal punishment as the "appropriate response" for something as trivial as "Wife did something that embarrassed her husband in public", shows that religious underpinnings can dictate what kind of cultures/behaviors exists in a social circle.

ThatRobGuy said:

I'd be curious to read them.

Click to expand...

ThatRobGuy said:

The fact that the Amish reject violence in that way, and some Asian religious practices are so anti-violence, that they'll wear screens over their mouths as to avoid accidently ingesting/killing bugs, while others find corporal punishment as the "appropriate response" for something as trivial as "Wife did something that embarrassed her husband in public", shows that religious underpinnings can dictate what kind of cultures/behaviors exists in a social circle.

Click to expand...

That isn't the result of anything different about Amish Bibles, but a different understanding of Christian ethics and ecclessiology.

Why then do you assume that Islamic terrorism is the result of the Quran? Are you aware the Quran actually contains far less violent content than the Christian Bible?

FireDragon76 said:

1 in 5 Americans think violence may solve U.S. divisions, poll finds​

Most Americans, no matter their political affiliation, do not believe that violence is a solution to domestic political divisions, according to the latest PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll.

www.pbs.org

Click to expand...

That's political violence, which is a different topic.

FireDragon76 said:

That isn't the result of anything different about Amish Bibles, but a different understanding of Christian ethics and ecclessiology.

Why then do you assume that Islamic terrorism is the result of the Quran? Are you aware the Quran actually contains far less violent content than the Christian Bible?

Click to expand...

Part of the difference between the two religions is who the "hero" of the story is for lack of a better term.

Compare the written portrayal of Jesus vs. Muhammed, and there are some stark contrasts.

ThatRobGuy said:

That's political violence, which is a different topic.




Part of the difference between the two religions is who the "hero" of the story is for lack of a better term.

Compare the written portrayal of Jesus vs. Muhammed, and there are some stark contrasts

Click to expand...

That's not comparable. Muhammed is not necessarily presented as a 'hero' in Islam, merely the last of the prophets, and a recipient of revelation.