MAGA Goal: Debt Reduction or Tax Cuts?

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

RoBo1988 said:
I doubt that most of them act illegally- they just have the means to figure out the laws, to their advantage. Many of the wealthy are your Congress and Senate members, who write the very laws that they weasel around. W

Congress and Senate members aren't even close to being the wealthiest people in society. The fastest growing group in the US in terms of wealth are billionaires, who compromise an oligarchic class, and these are the ones that are the bigger threat to democracy and responsible government.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
I think it's a combination of factors with regards to the "tax-resistant rich" as we'll call it.

Some of it is obviously purely greed (some people seem think they can never get enough, and think a dime of their own money is too much to chip in), it would be naive to deny that aspect. There are plenty of "Scrooge" types out there.

But I do think some of the tax resistance is rooted in more sincere concerns about the efficiency and stewardship with which that money gets spent, and fears that it could start becoming too easy to just start spending without planning. (The same reason lottery winners never seem to be as careful with their millions as a person who worked for it...and the same reason why kids start thinking a little more about their money when their parents make them get a job to earn vs. an allowance)

I think evidence of this is how some of even the left-leaning philanthropists choose to apply their money towards causes.

Bill Gates would be a perfect example. He's donated over $50 billion towards public health causes via private philanthropy (and committed a lot more towards that cause for when he passes away). Bill Gates certainly isn't an "anti-government guy" by any stretch. However, if he thought government was the best vehicle to achieve those aims, he'd just cut Billion-dollar checks to the US Treasury department and let them handle it. And I'm sure if you could ask him "Bill, would you rather pay more in taxes, or take the tax break, and be able to put your money toward the Bill Gates Foundation?"

The IRS has no mechanism to accept donations, and the treasury has no mechanism to budget for that sort of thing. If you want to invest in the government without paying taxes, there is already a mechanism to do so, it's called a bond.

Aryeh Jay · Mar 27, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
The IRS has no mechanism to accept donations, and the treasury has no mechanism to budget for that sort of thing. If you want to invest in the government without paying taxes, there is already a mechanism to do so, it's called a bond.

Wait, so when I got cousin Joey outta jail I also invested in the government?

DaisyDay · Mar 27, 2025

Now the DOG-E gang is floating the possibility of taking 20% of waste and fraud recovery and giving it out to taxpayers as a bonus. Why in the world would we give "savings" instead of replenishing the fund?

DOGE Stimulus checks: This is everything we know so far about these $5,000 payments

The DOGE has started talking about a $5,000 stimulus check that could be arriving in American homes very soon

www.tododisca.com

ThatRobGuy · Mar 27, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
The IRS has no mechanism to accept donations, and the treasury has no mechanism to budget for that sort of thing. If you want to invest in the government without paying taxes, there is already a mechanism to do so, it's called a bond.

Doesn't really change the gist of what I was referring to though. Do you think Gates has dabbled in bonds to the same degree that he contributes to causes?

Obviously, guys like Gates and Carnegie understand/understood that government using other peoples' money can be more susceptible to haphazard usage and "ready, fire, aim" approaches.

Carnegie especially, if you're familiar with some of this stances and positions on matters (particularly in the realm of attitudes when considering local vs. federal government in regard to money distribution)

I forget who initially coined the phrase, but once heard someone refer to the federal government as "the leaky bucket used to transfer money".

I think there's truth to that.

Now, for some issues, the "leaky bucket" is the only practical option because the federal government is the only entity with a bucket big enough to get the money from A to B quickly without having to make 5,000 trips. For instance, if there's a crisis mode situation and funds need to be distributed by next week, the private sector/free-market is too blunt an instrument to handle it.

But there are causes/scenarios where sometimes it's better to let private sector handle it with a bunch of less-leaky small buckets.

Always in His Presence · Mar 27, 2025

Tax cuts = more money in the consumers hand - which results in more spending - more spending = more taxes (revenue)

ThatRobGuy · Mar 27, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Tax cuts = more money in the consumers hand - which results in more spending - more spending = more taxes (revenue)

To be fair, there is a trade off there.

When the cuts are too heavily concentrated in the favor of top, then it starts walking the tightrope of potentially losing services that people in the lesser income brackets probably appreciated much more than getting back an extra $150 at the end of the year.

The flip side, the idea that "just tax the rich more and it'll solve everything" can be used a crutch to avoid putting in the work required to clean up the budget.

I don't necessarily have an issue with the concept of progressive tax brackets, but the efforts to clean up the budget should be done first before going back to the taxpayers for more money.

Pommer · Mar 27, 2025

Aryeh Jay said:
Wait, so when I got cousin Joey outta jail I also invested in the government?

Maybe the US should set up a Go Fund Me account?

Larniavc · Mar 27, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Tax cuts = more money in the consumers hand - which results in more spending - more spending = more taxes (revenue)

When has that ever worked?

Always in His Presence · Mar 27, 2025

Larniavc said:
When has that ever worked?

Glad you asked:

Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families

The truth is, the Trump tax cuts resulted in economic growth that was a full percentage point above CBO’s forecast, and federal revenues far outpaced the agency’s predictions. In fact, under Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high of nearly $5 trillion, and revenues averaged $205 billion above CBO predictions for the four years following implementation of the law.

That is directly from the House Budget committee.

Richard T · Mar 27, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
I think it's a combination of factors with regards to the "tax-resistant rich" as we'll call it.

Some of it is obviously purely greed (some people seem think they can never get enough, and think a dime of their own money is too much to chip in), it would be naive to deny that aspect. There are plenty of "Scrooge" types out there.

But I do think some of the tax resistance is rooted in more sincere concerns about the efficiency and stewardship with which that money gets spent, and fears that it could start becoming too easy to just start spending without planning. (The same reason lottery winners never seem to be as careful with their millions as a person who worked for it...and the same reason why kids start thinking a little more about their money when their parents make them get a job to earn vs. an allowance)

I think evidence of this is how some of even the left-leaning philanthropists choose to apply their money towards causes.

Bill Gates would be a perfect example. He's donated over $50 billion towards public health causes via private philanthropy (and committed a lot more towards that cause for when he passes away). Bill Gates certainly isn't an "anti-government guy" by any stretch. However, if he thought government was the best vehicle to achieve those aims, he'd just cut Billion-dollar checks to the US Treasury department and let them handle it. And I'm sure if you could ask him "Bill, would you rather pay more in taxes, or take the tax break, and be able to put your money toward the Bill Gates Foundation?"

Even going back to one of the biggest philanthropy guys of all time, Andrew Carnagie, when he funded the building of over 2,000 libraries in the US, he didn't merely hand the money over to the government. He played a reverse uno card, and made local governments and universities have to apply for grants from him, and he had to approve their architectural plans and they had to commit to an operational model he laid out in order for him to hand over the money.

So there definitely are rich guys (even generous rich guys who aren't anti-government) who just flat out feel that "those guys don't know how to manage and use money very well"

I am glad the rich also want better efficiency. Gates father used to lobby for the government to raise taxes. Income taxes don't matter so much anyway to the super wealthy as most of their money comes from investments. Please tax us, say (some) of America's richest

Richard T · Mar 27, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Glad you asked:

Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families

The truth is, the Trump tax cuts resulted in economic growth that was a full percentage point above CBO’s forecast, and federal revenues far outpaced the agency’s predictions. In fact, under Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high of nearly $5 trillion, and revenues averaged $205 billion above CBO predictions for the four years following implementation of the law.

That is directly from the House Budget committee.

Richard T · Mar 27, 2025

Fiscal Data Explains Federal Revenue

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new federal revenue page! #FederalRevenue

fiscaldata.treasury.gov

There is a spike in 2022 in income tax revenues due mostly to inflation. CBO predictions mean very little, real (inflation adjusted) tax dollars do. Tax cuts when the rates are modest reduce revenues though as the Tax Foundation suggests you may get a small portion back by added growth, They estimate 16% of the tax cut monies will trickle back, leaving a gaping 84% hole if the cuts are extended. Overall, the extension is projected to add 4 trillion to deficits. Budget Reconciliation: Tracking the 2025 Trump Tax Cuts

Always in His Presence · Mar 27, 2025

Richard T said:
Fiscal Data Explains Federal Revenue

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new federal revenue page! #FederalRevenue

fiscaldata.treasury.gov

There is a spike in 2022 in income tax revenues due mostly to inflation. CBO predictions mean very little, real (inflation adjusted) tax dollars do. Tax cuts when the rates are modest reduce revenues though as the Tax Foundation suggests you may get a small portion back by added growth, They estimate 16% of the tax cut monies will trickle back, leaving a gaping 84% hole if the cuts are extended. Overall, the extension is projected to add 4 trillion to deficits. Budget Reconciliation: Tracking the 2025 Trump Tax Cuts

Uh huh - they said the first one would do basically the same - they were wrong...

Pommer · Mar 27, 2025

Richard T said:
Fiscal Data Explains Federal Revenue

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new federal revenue page! #FederalRevenue

fiscaldata.treasury.gov

There is a spike in 2022 in income tax revenues due mostly to inflation. CBO predictions mean very little, real (inflation adjusted) tax dollars do. Tax cuts when the rates are modest reduce revenues though as the Tax Foundation suggests you may get a small portion back by added growth, They estimate 16% of the tax cut monies will trickle back, leaving a gaping 84% hole if the cuts are extended. Overall, the extension is projected to add 4 trillion to deficits. Budget Reconciliation: Tracking the 2025 Trump Tax Cuts

In the before-times, when the economy was booming (as in 2017), a tax-hike was the preferred method to stave off inflation; now, instead it’s all-tax cuts, all of the time.

RoBo1988 · Mar 28, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Congress and Senate members aren't even close to being the wealthiest people in society. The fastest growing group in the US in terms of wealth are billionaires, who compromise an oligarchic class, and these are the ones that are the bigger threat to democracy and responsible government.

Some of the most expensive real estate is in the Washington DC area. Wonder why?
And I agree about the billionaires; like Reid Hoffman, and Jeff Bezos, who seemed to have changed his tune lately.

RocksInMyHead · Mar 28, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Glad you asked:

Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families

The truth is, the Trump tax cuts resulted in economic growth that was a full percentage point above CBO’s forecast, and federal revenues far outpaced the agency’s predictions. In fact, under Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high of nearly $5 trillion, and revenues averaged $205 billion above CBO predictions for the four years following implementation of the law.

That is directly from the House Budget committee.

It's a press release from the Republican chair of the committee, so forgive my skepticism. It's also from 2022, which had artificially high revenues as a result of the pandemic recovery.

Now, let me address the points specifically:

1. "Tax revenues reached a record high" - Tax revenues should reach a "record high" every year. If they don't, something is very, very wrong. We have more taxpayers every year, and incomes increase every year. And, crucially, the budget keeps going up, so we need tax revenues to continue to rise year-over-year.

2. "Tax revenues beat the CBO's predictions" - I mean, that's good, but it's kind of irrelevant unless you look at how the results compare to the projections without the tax cuts. And that is worse (except for 2022). It should also be noted that in 2018 and 2019, the only pre-COVID datapoints, revenues did not beat even the revised CBO projections.

The Trump Tax Cuts Led to Record-Low, Not High, Revenues Outside of a Recession

Federal revenues lag far behind pre-tax cut budget projections.

www.americanprogress.org

Always in His Presence · Mar 28, 2025

RocksInMyHead said:
It's a press release from the Republican chair of the committee, so forgive my skepticism

You are skeptical of the House Budget report - because a Republican chaired it - and you counter by quoting a far left liberal source?

Forgive my pointing out the obvious flaw.

Always in His Presence · Mar 28, 2025

IRS data proves Trump tax cuts benefited middle, working-class Americans most

Income data published by the IRS clearly show that on average all income brackets benefited substantially from the Republicans’ tax reform law, with the biggest beneficiaries being working and middle-income filers, not the top 1 percent, as so many Democrats have argued.

A careful analysis of the IRS tax data, one that includes the effects of tax credits and other reforms to the tax code, shows that filers with an adjusted gross income (AGI) of $15,000 to $50,000 enjoyed an average tax cut of 16 percent to 26 percent in 2018, the first year Republicans’ Tax Cuts and Jobs Act went into effect and the most recent year for which data is available.

RocksInMyHead · Mar 28, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
You are skeptical of the House Budget report - because a Republican chaired it - and you counter by quoting a far left liberal source?

1. That's not the "House Budge Report". It's a press release with cherry-picked and misleadingly-framed data.
2. My skepticism is backed up by the data. Yes, tax revenues overperformed in 2022, but they underperformed relative to pre-tax-cut projections in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023. Some of that is down to pandemic effects (just as the overperformance in 2022 was), but you can't really make that excuse for 2018 and 2019.
3. My "far left liberal source" includes official data to back up the points that I made. Do you take issue with that data?

MAGA Goal: Debt Reduction or Tax Cuts?

Whichwould be more beneficial for the US economy: tax cuts or debt reduction?

Tax cuts because decreasing revenue actually increases it

Tax cuts because pending spending cuts means we won't need so much revenue

Debt reduction because until there is an actual surplus we need the revenue

Debt reduction because debt service is too expensive and wasteful

Both are equally important because we can eat our cake and have it, too

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Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families​

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Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families​

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IRS data proves Trump tax cuts benefited middle, working-class Americans most​

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