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Missing Catholicism: What Evangelicals get Wrong About Catholic Teaching of Salvation

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Tolkien R.R.J

Tolkien R.R.J

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The Liturgist said:
You seem to be confusing the Baptism of Desire with Invincible Ignorance, but what you describe is not entirely consistent with either. It is closer to the views of Apokatastasis taught by a minority of early church fathers such as Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, which was also for a time the official doctrine of the Church of the East prior to the genocide of Tamerlane and Islamic oppression (perhaps these events caused them to realize there are true misotheists who hate God and virtue and exclude themselves from salvation).
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I was referring to current catholic beliefs! That baptized and unbaptized Christians, along with atheists, jews, Muslims etc can all be saved in various ways. This is what they teach. Nothing to do with the OP however.
 
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Clare73

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Tolkien R.R.J said:
Context! What you say is true for Catholic in the Church, not for Christians outside of it. For ensample the article states,
And for what it is worth, the Catholic Church holds that Protestants are “brought up in the faith of Christ” and “have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church” (CCC, 818, also see 819). Medieval scholar William of Tyre wrote that despite being viewed as schismatic, out of communion with Rome, or even heretical, the Christians in the Holy Land were “true Christians.”

And


The possible salvation of a heretic, a Jew or a pagan is not only a theological ‘view,’ but definitely Catholic doctrine…According to Catholic theology it is, therefore, quite possible that John Hus’ soul went straight to heaven after his death at the stake, provided he sincerely believed in his own views, however erroneous. The Augustinian dictum (In psalm. cvi. 14): ‘How many who do not belong to us are really inside, how many of our own people are actually outside [the Church],’ has at all times been accepted by the Catholic Church (Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, Liberty or Equality: The Challenge of our Times).
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But the focal point of this article was not how Catholics view evangelicals like, but how evangelicals view Catholics. Are Catholics "saved" from the evangelical point of view. So I do think you have missed the article!
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Salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) for the remission of one's sin, which salvation produces obedience in the Holy Spirit as its consequence, never its cause.
 
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The Liturgist

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Tolkien R.R.J said:
This is what they teach.
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Debateable. It would be more accurate to say this is the opinion expressed by the liberal faction of bishops in the RCC, but @chevyontheriver @Michie correct me if I’m wrong but this kind of liberal pluralism is not found in the Catechism of the Catholic Faith.

It is also not found among most Christians who identify as “Evangelical.”
 
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RileyG

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The Liturgist said:
You seem to be confusing the Baptism of Desire with Invincible Ignorance, but what you describe is not entirely consistent with either. It is closer to the views of Apokatastasis taught by a minority of early church fathers such as Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, which was also for a time the official doctrine of the Church of the East prior to the genocide of Tamerlane and Islamic oppression (perhaps these events caused them to realize there are true misotheists who hate God and virtue and exclude themselves from salvation).
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Ah, those Church fathers are often cited by universalists. I wonder why?

Fun fact: St. Isaac the Syrian was recently added to the calendar of Saints in the RCC. It’s only been centuries.
 
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RileyG

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The Liturgist said:
Debateable. It would be more accurate to say this is the opinion expressed by the liberal faction of bishops in the RCC, but @chevyontheriver @Michie correct me if I’m wrong but this kind of liberal pluralism is not found in the Catechism of the Catholic Faith.

It is also not found among most Christians who identify as “Evangelical.”
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Essentially, it’s up to God. Only God can read a man’s heart and understands everything.
 
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RileyG

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Clare73 said:
Salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) for the remission of one's sin, which salvation produces obedience in the Holy Spirit as its consequence, never its cause.
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No one is denying that. All salvation flows from the cross and resurrection of Christ! The RCC has always taught this!
 
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fhansen

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The Liturgist said:
Debateable. It would be more accurate to say this is the opinion expressed by the liberal faction of bishops in the RCC, but @chevyontheriver @Michie correct me if I’m wrong but this kind of liberal pluralism is not found in the Catechism of the Catholic Faith.

It is also not found among most Christians who identify as “Evangelical.”
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If I may...from the current catechism:

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

One point of interest from para 837: "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity [love] is not saved."

An additional point: I'm sure we agree on the importance of the visible church, wherever and however one identifies and defines it, as an entity established by Christ for the proclamation of His message, for the good of man. The RCC for its part considers all believers in Christ to be part of that one church, knowingly or not and however perfectly or imperfectly connected to it-and whether or not the believer even considers the visible church to be at all relevant.
 
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