Hey, Atheists...

2PhiloVoid · Feb 15, 2025

partinobodycular said:
You're right, that's not what I was implying at all. If so then I should abandon solipsism because it's just as speculative as theism is. But I can't, because I can't abandon reason any more than a theist can abandon faith. Instead what I'm asking is... what if you're wrong?

If I'm wrong? What's the probability for that I wonder?

partinobodycular said:
As a solipsist I could treat everyone with complete contempt, because they're not real... but what if I'm wrong?

Then you stand a reasonable chance to be afforded room and board in spartan accommodations for a long time.

partinobodycular said:
In the same manner I'm not suggesting that people should abandon their beliefs either, just that they should augment them with the innately human possibility, that they could be wrong. What is there in those precious beliefs of theirs that wouldn't be better tempered by the humility that comes with admitting that they might be wrong?

As luck has it, philosophy (and a bit of existential angst) affords each of us the perfect opportunity to apply our already inherent aptitudes for skepticism. And that's the beauty of philosophy! You're permitted to question things. I just happen to question everything, which is how I even became a Christian in the first place. My main working axiom is: no one human being knows everything, most especially me. (Somehow, it sounds so "ok" when I say it like that.)

partinobodycular said:
Faith is an amazingly uplifting thing... arrogance on the other hand, isn't.

Then neither of us has to be arrogant, nor depricating of what other people might know or have reason to think might be true,

partinobodycular said:
Like I say, I love philosophy. Just not to the point that it forgets that we're only human, we can be wrong. Take that from a solipsist, and a wannabe Christian. (I just don't fit the rules.)

Philosophy ASSUMES we're human. Do you know of any philosophers who suffer from amnesia regarding their own humanity? Well.........I guess you're right to imply that some do, maybe Karl Marx suffered from that lack of mindfulness, but I digress. :sorry:

Personally, this is why I start with Blaise Pascal.

partinobodycular · Feb 15, 2025

2PhiloVoid said:
If I'm wrong? What's the probability for that I wonder?

I've never been good at calculating probabilities, but I'd have to estimate the probability of me being wrong is pretty close to 100%, but where would the joy of life be if I actually knew everything. What would the point of philosophy be then?

2PhiloVoid said:
Then you stand a reasonable chance to be afforded room and board in spartan accommodations for a long time.

No problem, I can do spartan. I'm currently typing this in a house with no running water, and no heat, although the temperature is supposed to get down to -14 °F tonight. It's gonna get chilly. Yup, I can do spartan.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 15, 2025

partinobodycular said:
I've never been good at calculating probabilities, but I'd have to estimate the probability of me being wrong is pretty close to 100%, but where would the joy of life be if I actually knew everything. What would the point of philosophy be then?

Lol! Ok.

partinobodycular said:
No problem, I can do spartan. I'm currently typing this in a house with no running water, and no heat, although the temperature is supposed to get down to -14 °F tonight. It's gonna get chilly. Yup, I can do spartan.

Seriously? If so, you should have led out with a long time ago. And you have a place to charge your laptop or phone so you can type on CF?

partinobodycular · Feb 15, 2025

2PhiloVoid said:
Seriously? If so, you should have led out with a long time ago. And you have a place to charge your laptop or phone so you can type on CF?

Thank God for basements. The temperature in my basement is currently 37 °F. (Upstairs it's colder) But I've cordoned off an 8' X 11' section of the basement in which I have one LED light, one PC, and one 19" TV. Between them they keep the current temperature in this room at 52 °F. It gets colder at night, and for the next week or so it's gonna get chilly.

Anyway it doesn't matter. I've never been a big fan of stuff or creature comforts. I'm a pretty simple guy. It keeps me humble. It's just me being me.

stevevw · Feb 15, 2025

RamiC said:
Again I ask, proof of the existence of the mind using modern scientific methods please?

Ok so theres plenty.

Most of the evidence comes from the findings of Quantum Mechanics and the observer effect or what they call the Measurement problem.

First here are the pioneers of QM who support the idea of mind and consciousness being fundemental due to the findings within QM experiments.

Freeman Dyson: "mind is already inherent in every electron".

David Bohm: We have something that is mind-like already with the electron.

Bertrand Russell: mind is more fundamental than matter. Consciousness is the most fundamental essence of existence out of which comes the experience of material reality.

John Wheeler who worked with Einstein: Who coined the phrase 'It from bit' and the (participatory universe) mentions
"all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe".
He believed information and knowledge was fundemental and that this point to Mind being fundemental. Wheeler’s (delayed choice experiment) (Wheeler 1978)—where a choice made now by an observer can change or edit the past of a photon—has been experimentally confirmed. The notion of a participatory reality is also found in Kant’s philosophy.

Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness

The bizarre nature of reality as laid out by quantum theory has survived another test, with scientists performing a famous experiment and proving that reality does not exist until it is measured. Physicists have conducted John Wheeler's delayed-choice thought experiment, which involves a moving...

www.sciencedaily.com

Eugene Wigner: Nobel prize winner in physics and famous for his experiment (Wigners Friend) which has variations has been verified. This shows that there can be more than one objective reality depending on the conscious observations (mind) of the observer.

Eugene Wigner

Information Philosopher is dedicated to the new Information Philosophy, with explanations for Freedom, Values, and Knowledge.

www.informationphilosopher.com

Henry Stapp: Worked with Wheeler, Wolfgang Pauli and Werner Heisenberg

Putting Mind Back into Nature: A Tribute to Henry P. Stapp
Henry P. Stapp has for 60 years been a leader – perhaps the leader – in exploring the role of mind/psyche/consciousness/experience in the ontology of quantum mechanics. Henry’s contention is that the very structure of quantum mechanics implies a central and irreducible role for mind: an experiential aspect of nature distinct from that of the physical matter and energy described by the dynamical equations of physics.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1904/1904.10528.pdf

Mindful Universe
During the twentieth century the classical concepts were found to be inadequate. In the new theory, quantum mechanics, our conscious experiences enter into the dynamics in specified ways not fixed by the physically described aspects alone. Consequences of this radical change in our understanding of the connection between mind and brain are described.
https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783642180750

In stark contrast to classical mechanics, in which the physically described aspect is matter-like, the physically described aspect of quantum mechanics is mind-like! Thus both parts of the quantum Cartesian duality are ontologically mind-like. In short, orthodox quantum mechanics is Cartesian dualistic at the pragmatic/operational level, but mentalistic on the ontological level. Nature becomes intelligible to itself through the human mind. [P. 434]
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-03633-1_14

RamiC said:
Otherwise this thing called psychology is not science, I am not saying it does not exist, I am saying to call it science is a category error.

Ok so is there any science that can explain cognition and behaviour. What about the 'The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, (DSM-5-TR). This gives scientific analysis and treatment for mental disorders which have been scientifically verified.

Psychology was identified as one of the seven hub sciences that underpin our understanding of the world around us alongside Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, Earth Sciences and Social Science.

Is psychology a science?

There is a debate about whether psychology is a science. Most psychologists believe it is a science, as it uses scientific methods and has real-world impact.

www.uclan.ac.uk

Science of Psychology

Science of Psychology

Applied psychology and the science of psychology benefit society. Psychologists conduct basic and applied research, serve as consultants to communities and organizations, diagnose and treat people, teach future psychologists, and test intelligence and personality.

www.apa.org

Psychology holds an exceptional position among the sciences.

Psychology’s Status as a Science: Peculiarities and Intrinsic Challenges. Moving Beyond its Current Deadlock Towards Conceptual Integration - PMC

Psychology holds an exceptional position among the sciences. Yet even after 140 years as an independent discipline, psychology is still struggling with its most basic foundations. Its key phenomena, mind and behaviour, are poorly defined (and their ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Psychology as a Science of Subject and Comportment, beyond the Mind and Behavior

Psychology as a Science of Subject and Comportment, beyond the Mind and Behavior - PMC

The turn of qualitative inquiry suggests a more open, plural conception of psychology than just the science of the mind and behavior as it is most commonly defined. Historical, ontological and epistemological binding of this conception of psychology ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

2PhiloVoid · Feb 16, 2025

partinobodycular said:
Thank God for basements. The temperature in my basement is currently 37 °F. (Upstairs it's colder) But I've cordoned off an 8' X 11' section of the basement in which I have one LED light, one PC, and one 19" TV. Between them they keep the current temperature in this room at 52 °F. It gets colder at night, and for the next week or so it's gonna get chilly.

Anyway it doesn't matter. I've never been a big fan of stuff or creature comforts. I'm a pretty simple guy. It keeps me humble. It's just me being me.

Well, stay warm. If you have family or a good church nearby, maybe give them a few moments of your time, PB.

partinobodycular · Feb 16, 2025

2PhiloVoid said:
Well, stay warm. If you have family or a good church nearby, maybe give them a few moments of your time, PB.

Sometimes we mistake gifts for burdens. I've always had a problem with a lack of empathy, but when it's cold like it is now, I tend to spend a lot of time in my little room listening to the same song over and over again. Yesterday it happened to be 'Girl goin' nowhere' by Ashley Mcbryde. It's amazing how much of a cathartic effect that can have on me. My indifference tends to change to compassion, and I end up being able to forgive just about anybody, for just about anything. Some people meditate, some people pray, I listen to sad songs. So don't concern yourself with my well-being... I'm good. God sees to that.

How bout we listen to a sad song.

2PhiloVoid · Feb 16, 2025

partinobodycular said:
Sometimes we mistake gifts for burdens. I've always had a problem with a lack of empathy, but when it's cold like it is now, I tend to spend a lot of time in my little room listening to the same song over and over again. Yesterday it happened to be 'Girl goin' nowhere' by Ashley Mcbryde. It's amazing how much of a cathartic effect that can have on me. My indifference tends to change to compassion, and I end up being able to forgive just about anybody, for just about anything. Some people meditate, some people pray, I listen to sad songs. So don't concern yourself with my well-being... I'm good. God sees to that.

How bout we listen to a sad song.

We're kind of similar in that regard...

stevevw · Feb 16, 2025

Lol speaking on basements and warmth I remember living in a terrace in Derbyshire England and not realising the housing systent got a cheap rental that had no central heating.

It was a particularly cold winter that year maybe 1991 and deadset when you breathed inside the house you could see fog come out. NOt the outside which I had not even experienced. But the inside of the house.

We ended up with an oil heater and living in the front room. Though I was young I thought it fun. But we learnt our lesson and ensure we had full double glazing and central heating and a fire place lol. Then it was beautiful and theres nothing more comforting than a warm home with a fire place.

Monowhite · Mar 20, 2025

The problem with atheism is it's much harder to prove something they don't believe in doesn't exist than it does for a believer(!) that does to do. The burden of anti-proof. If ever such thing could exist.
Discuss.

essentialsaltes · Mar 20, 2025

Monowhite said:
The problem with atheism is it's much harder to prove something they don't believe in doesn't exist than it does for a believer(!) that does to do. The burden of anti-proof. If ever such thing could exist.
Discuss.

Luckily, no one has a burden to prove something doesn't exist in order to not-believe in it.

Bradskii · Mar 20, 2025

Monowhite said:
The problem with atheism is it's much harder to prove something they don't believe in doesn't exist than it does for a believer(!) that does to do. The burden of anti-proof. If ever such thing could exist.
Discuss.

I have the same problem with unicorns.

Monowhite · Mar 22, 2025

essentialsaltes said:
Luckily, no one has a burden to prove something doesn't exist in order to not-believe in it.

I don't think belief is a burden.

partinobodycular · Mar 22, 2025

Monowhite said:
I don't think belief is a burden.

Of course not, it's a crutch.

Oompa Loompa · Mar 22, 2025

partinobodycular said:
Of course not, it's a crutch.

Not necessarily.

partinobodycular · Mar 22, 2025

Oompa Loompa said:
Not necessarily.

I agree. But a belief that one can't possibly question... is a crutch... whereas a belief that one can... is faith.

Too many Christians have a crutch, but have convinced themselves that it's faith.

So, seeing as you're a Christian... are you willing to admit that you might be wrong? That's how you'll know if your belief is actually a crutch.

Kylie · Mar 22, 2025

Monowhite said:
The problem with atheism is it's much harder to prove something they don't believe in doesn't exist than it does for a believer(!) that does to do. The burden of anti-proof. If ever such thing could exist.
Discuss.

Well, despite the fact that it's easy to prove that something doesn't exist if that existence would contradict something we know for a fact...

Atheism isn't about saying, "God doesn't exist."

Atheism is about whenever believers claim their God exists, we saying, "Okay, prove it." And then not getting any actual evidence.

Oompa Loompa · Mar 23, 2025

partinobodycular said:
So, seeing as you're a Christian... are you willing to admit that you might be wrong? That's how you'll know if your belief is actually a crutch.

That is a good question. People have faith in things that they trust and gives them assurance. I agree that there are many Christians that have a blind faith without any justifiable reason. I think it would be dishonest to say I know God exists, because, if I did, no faith is required. I would know. However, many Christians have a reasonable faith grounded in facts, logic, and lived experiences.

Peter speaks of this in 1 Peter 3:15.

"
1 Peter 3:15 NIV
[15] But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

partinobodycular · Mar 23, 2025

Oompa Loompa said:
That is a good question.

And yours is a good answer. Not perfect. But then again I wasn't hoping for perfect, just honest.

Oompa Loompa said:
However, many Christians have a reasonable faith grounded in facts, logic, and lived experiences.

But sometimes, in a quest to avoid losing face Christians will fail to concede that their faith is based more on the last, than on the first. As if the honest admittance that 'I don't know' is somehow a failure to defend their faith, when it is in fact the purest evidence of it.

As for 1 Peter 3:15, the greatest testimony that a Christian can give is an honest one... that they believe because there's something inside of them that calls them to believe, and if all else be a lie, as humbling as that would be, that voice would still be there, and they would still listen.

So they do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God... not so much because of a book, or because of the evidence, but simply because their heart compels them to. And the answer that they should be prepared to give... with gentleness and respect... is that where they do not know, they have humility, assurance, and faith. And that, as much as Christ Himself, is what Christianity is grounded on.

Oompa Loompa · Mar 23, 2025

partinobodycular said:
And yours is a good answer. Not perfect. But then again I wasn't hoping for perfect, just honest.

But sometimes, in a quest to avoid losing face Christians will fail to concede that their faith is based more on the last, than on the first. As if the honest admittance that 'I don't know' is somehow a failure to defend their faith, when it is in fact the purest evidence of it.

As for 1 Peter 3:15, the greatest testimony that a Christian can give is an honest one... that they believe because there's something inside of them that calls them to believe, and if all else be a lie, as humbling as that would be, that voice would still be there, and they would still listen.

So they do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God... not so much because of a book, or because of the evidence, but simply because their heart compels them to. And the answer that they should be prepared to give... with gentleness and respect... is that where they do not know, they have humility, assurance, and faith. And that, as much as Christ Himself, is what Christianity is grounded on.

Humility, assurance, and faith, are these bad qualities foe a society regardless of one's beliefs?

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