How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?

Carl Emerson · Mar 16, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
And for the first 15 centuries nobody taught eternal security. All of the early church writers taught conditional security. The writings of the first two centuries of Christianity give us evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted because the first century writers were disciples of the apostles and received more information from them than what we receive in the scriptures. They were also able to ask questions and get direct answers. You can’t just ignore context based on a claim that Paul didn’t mean what he wrote the way he wrote it. That’s just twisting the passage in order to confirm it to coincide with your doctrine instead of allowing the scriptures to teach what they teach and allowing them to dictate your doctrines.

So we shouldn't believe this ???

John 10

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Carl Emerson · Mar 16, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
No my point was that not everyone who reads the scriptures come to the same interpretation and not every believer who has the Holy Spirit comes to the same conclusions on doctrine.

We can agree on that...

So your don't believe in progressive revelation ?

Reading through John 15 - 18 Jesus taught a lot about the coming persecution, preparing His believers fo what was to come.

We are in an age when martyrdom is becoming quite common. It seems the lid has been lifted off the restraint on wickedness globally.

Maybe we need similar assurances for this time including a strength and confidence that comes from the assurance of salvation ? The disciples had it, they knew they would be ruling over the 12 tribes in the next life. The thief on the Cross had it. I bet Lazerus had it - I visited the grave where he was buried the second time. Jesus had it - so knowing what is to come after death is not something to be despising - Maranatha.

Hoping2 · Mar 16, 2025

Aaron112 said:
oops? no. "motive" does not determine fruit.
We as men may plant the seed that Yahweh provides, and we may water as Yahweh provides,
but it is only Yahweh Who Gives The Growth , if any.

My comment was in the context of your post saying "guns are tools too".
A gun, or the internet, are inanimate objects.
The user chooses to employ them for good or evil.

Hoping2 · Mar 16, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
How you lived a perfect sinless life, without any sin since you have been saved?

If by "saved' you mean "converted", then yes...I have remained true to me Master since My repentance from sin.
Salvation won't be determined until the day of judgement.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Because if you sinned only a single time, you have lost salvation according to your words. Or is there a limit?

One and done, like Adam and Eve, or Moses in the desert.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Until end of your life, you do not know where you are going. Whether you lived your life good enough. This is what Islam teaches, do good deeds and there is a good chance allah will accept you.

Even the false religions sometimes have a right answer.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
But the Bible teaches about assurance of salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, adopted into God's family in Christ Jesus, because He paid for it. But what you say is that His payment is not enough, and we must add something to it. But there is nothing that can be added.

Do you suppose that Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5), will be saved ?
They were once counted amongst the brethren/believers.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Despite God’s transforming work in salvation, and the new nature we enjoy as His children in Christ, we still fall short of His righteous standard. Scripture recognizes our lingering imperfection. Even the apostle Paul wrote, Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

What Paul had yet to attain, was his resurrection from the dead, (v 11), and a new body, (v 21).
He did add..." Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Every perfectionist inevitably comes face‑to‑face with clear and abundant empirical evidence that the residue of sin remains in the flesh and troubles even the most spiritual Christians throughout their earthly lives. In order to hang onto perfectionist doctrine, they must redefine sin or diminish the standard of holiness. Too often they do this at the expense of their own consciences.

Than God we get a new life at rebirth from God's seed !
The troubles of the old life are wiped away, and by God's grace and His Spirit within us, we can now live as He commands.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The Bible clearly teaches that Christians can never attain sinless perfection in this life. “Who can say, ‘I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin’?” (Proverbs 20:9).

So true, in the OT...before the gift of repentance from sin and rebirth were available to men.
But no longer.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
“For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well” (James 3:2).

James' response to conflicting teachings in the church.
The "too many cooks" syndrome.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
“For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please” (Galatians 5:17).

You present the perspective of those walking in the flesh, while I approach it from the perspective of one walking in the Spirit.
I can no longer do the things of the fleshly oriented mind.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

True, but only for those walk in darkness...which Pro 4:19 says is the way of "the way of the wicked".
Sinners can't say they have no sin, but those walking in God (the light) sure can.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
All perfectionism is essentially a disastrous misunderstanding of how God works in sanctification. Sanctification is a process by which God—working in believers through the Holy Spirit—gradually moves them toward Christlikeness (2 Corinthians 3:18). That the transformation is gradual—not instantaneous, and never complete in this lifetime—is confirmed by many passages of Scripture.

Sanctification happens at the application the the sanctifying, atoning, justifying blood of Christ...at baptism into His death.
It is not a gradual changing for the good.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
No. Paul is talking as a Christian already.

I agree, but he is describing his former, pre-conversion life.
He says in Rom 7:5..."When we were in the flesh...", setting the stage for his narrative of the past.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Peter sinned after being saved and yet he is in heaven.

Where ?

Ivan Hlavanda said:
King David sinned after being saved. Likewise Abraham. Did any of these men lose their salvation? No. Not even the most faithful lived a perfect sinless life after being saved.

The men of the OT didn't have the tools of righteousness we possess today.
We can now walk in the Spirit INSTEAD of in the flesh.
They could not.

BNR32FAN · Mar 16, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
So we shouldn't believe this ???

John 10

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

I already explained the definition of the Greek word Harpazo that is translated to snatch. It means to seize, snatch, rob, take by force, all of which refer to a third party. The passage isn’t saying that we can’t turn away from Christ or that God can’t cast us away.

Ivan Hlavanda · Mar 16, 2025

Hoping2 said:
If by "saved' you mean "converted", then yes...I have remained true to me Master since My repentance from sin.

No one lives in perfect sinless life. No one loves God fully, the way He commands. As John say 'If we (Christians) say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature. No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven. As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone. Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners. Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect.

Hoping2 said:
Salvation won't be determined until the day of judgement.

This is unbiblical.
Salvation happens when Christ says 'you are forgiven' at the same time God washes your sins and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can break the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that we can be assured of our Salvation. That's why Christ said He will lose none. No one will snatch us from His hands, and that nothing will separate us from His love. We have been adopted into God's family and are heirs with Christ.

As John writes in his first letter And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” If you have Jesus, you have life. Not temporary life, but eternal.

God wants us to have assurance of our salvation. We should not live our Christian lives wondering and worrying each day whether we are truly saved. That is why the Bible makes the plan of salvation so clear. Believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus died to pay the penalty for my sins and rose again from the dead. I trust Him alone for my salvation. I take God's word to heart.

Jesus Himself assures those who believe in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ’s God-given gift of salvation away from you.

Our assurance of salvation is based on the perfect and complete salvation God has provided for us through Jesus Christ.

Christians have been judged in Christ. There is no more judgement for Christians in the way the world will be judged. We will give account for the way we lived as Christians, that's true, but that's not about salvation.

Hoping2 said:
One and done, like Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve were without sin, in sinless flesh.

Hoping2 said:
or Moses in the desert.

Moses is in Heaven. He wouldn't be at Mount of Transfiguration otherwise.

Hoping2 said:
So true, in the OT...before the gift of repentance from sin and rebirth were available to men.

What are you talking about? OT is full of repentance of believers. People in OT were saved the same way we are now. Born again by the Holy Spirit. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again, of the Spirit, to enter the Kingdom of God, and questioned Nicodemus why he does not know these things. The OT believers were saved exactly the same way as we are today. They were sinners who were regenerated the same way as we are today. They became faithful by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, which in the OT is described more as ‘circumcision of the heart’

Hoping2 said:
Where ?

When apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favouritism Galatians 2:11-13

Hoping2 said:
He says in Rom 7:5..."When we were in the flesh...", setting the stage for his narrative of the past.

Romans 7 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul is talking in present tense, not the past tense.

You can worry about salvation all your life if you want. I am assured of mine because of the promises made by God, and the work of Christ on the cross, which are sufficient for my salvation.

Hoping2 · Mar 16, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
No one lives in perfect sinless life. No one loves God fully, the way He commands. As John say 'If we (Christians) say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature. No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven. As human beings we are bound under Adam’s nature in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. This holds true for everyone. Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners. Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect.

This is unbiblical.
Salvation happens when Christ says 'you are forgiven' at the same time God washes your sins and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can break the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that we can be assured of our Salvation. That's why Christ said He will lose none. No one will snatch us from His hands, and that nothing will separate us from His love. We have been adopted into God's family and are heirs with Christ.

As John writes in his first letter And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” If you have Jesus, you have life. Not temporary life, but eternal.

God wants us to have assurance of our salvation. We should not live our Christian lives wondering and worrying each day whether we are truly saved. That is why the Bible makes the plan of salvation so clear. Believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus died to pay the penalty for my sins and rose again from the dead. I trust Him alone for my salvation. I take God's word to heart.

Jesus Himself assures those who believe in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ’s God-given gift of salvation away from you.

Our assurance of salvation is based on the perfect and complete salvation God has provided for us through Jesus Christ.

Christians have been judged in Christ. There is no more judgement for Christians in the way the world will be judged. We will give account for the way we lived as Christians, that's true, but that's not about salvation.

Adam and Eve were without sin, in sinless flesh.

Moses is in Heaven. He wouldn't be at Mount of Transfiguration otherwise.

What are you talking about? OT is full of repentance of believers. People in OT were saved the same way we are now. Born again by the Holy Spirit. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus, you must be born again, of the Spirit, to enter the Kingdom of God, and questioned Nicodemus why he does not know these things. The OT believers were saved exactly the same way as we are today. They were sinners who were regenerated the same way as we are today. They became faithful by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, which in the OT is described more as ‘circumcision of the heart’

When apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favouritism Galatians 2:11-13

Romans 7 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Ivan Hlavanda said:
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Ivan Hlavanda said:
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

The flesh is in his past, as Rom 7:5 made clear..." For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Paul is talking in present tense, not the past tense.

He does shift back to the present tense, after he voices his former plaints

Ivan Hlavanda said:
You can worry about salvation all your life if you want. I am assured of mine because of the promises made by God, and the work of Christ on the cross, which are sufficient for my salvation.

I shall adhere to Jesus' doctrine here..."And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matt 10:22)
I shall adhere to the apostles doctrines.
Like..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2:12)
I see no assurances in that.

Carl Emerson · Mar 17, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
I already explained the definition of the Greek word Harpazo that is translated to snatch. It means to seize, snatch, rob, take by force, all of which refer to a third party. The passage isn’t saying that we can’t turn away from Christ or that God can’t cast us away.

It seems we would have to be greater than God to achieve this...

They will never perish ???

Can you dance around this one too ?

You seem to be saying that our power to choose is greater than God's.

John 1
as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

BNR32FAN · Mar 17, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
They will never perish ???

If you had watched the video you’d see that I already explained that to. Who is “they”? Those who believe or those who believed (past tense)?

Ivan Hlavanda · Mar 17, 2025

Hoping2 said:
Answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

this verse does not mean that we live a perfect sinless life or else we lose our salvation. The law of the Spirit is the gospel of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good Romans 7:12, but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law: “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Romans 7:22–25.

The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ. We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus. The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 8:38–39. This verse alone proves that salvation cannot be lost.

Hoping2 said:
I see no assurances in that.

There is many verses in the Bible that speak of our assurance, many of which I posted here, but you chose to ignore them.

1 John 5:11–13: “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life”. We already have the eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Himself assures those who believe in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28–29). Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ’s God-given gift of salvation away from you.

I can post many more verses, many I have already posted, but I feel like I'm wasting my time, because you and others chose to ignore them.

Hoping2 said:
Like..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in 2 Corinthians 7:15 where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” 1 Corinthians 2:3, mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness Philippians 3:13-14. The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” Romans 12:1-2 and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds Romans 12:1-2, coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

Hoping2 · Mar 17, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
this verse does not mean that we live a perfect sinless life or else we lose our salvation.

Rom 8:2 shows that Rom 7:23 was a past tense event, from Paul's preconversion life.
It shows that the erroneous interpretation of Rom 7 being a present tense life still in sin, has concluded with a life free from its limitations.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The law of the Spirit is the gospel of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good Romans 7:12, but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

We can keep the big ten, now that we have "the law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" in us.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law: “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Romans 7:22–25.

The conclusion of Rom 7 shows the fork in the road for Paul.
His past in the flesh, and under the law of sin; and his present, in the Spirit and under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Free to follow the mind instead of the flesh.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The next chapter, Romans 8, begins by declaring there is no longer any condemnation or judgment for those who are in Christ.

As there is no sin in Christ, how can those in Christ have sin on them ?
So of course there is no condemnation.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
We have been released from the law of sin and death. Paul’s argument from Romans 7 transitions in Romans 8 to a rejoicing over the change the gospel makes in the lives of those who believe in Jesus.

I agree.
Rom 7 is a sort of transition point: Paul moving from his prior life in and after the flesh, and into his new life in and after the Spirit.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The chapter concludes by confirming, in the strongest terms possible, that believers can never be separated from God’s love: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 8:38–39. This verse alone proves that salvation cannot be lost.

It proves that the real believers cannot be lost.
The hangers-on, posers, and lazy, will surely fall.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
There is many verses in the Bible that speak of our assurance, many of which I posted here, but you chose to ignore them.
1 John 5:11–13: “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life”. We already have the eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Do you think Ananias and Sapphira will be surprised at their final judgement ?
Men have to endure faithfully until the end, to show they truly are believers.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Jesus Himself assures those who believe in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28–29). Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ’s God-given gift of salvation away from you.

Plenty have jumped, from the Fathers proverbial hand.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I can post many more verses, many I have already posted, but I feel like I'm wasting my time, because you and others chose to ignore them.

Those intent on pleasing God will be able to look back on the day of judgement and say..."My eternal life started in 2004, or 1978, or some other date.
But without an actual repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins, there is no beginning to that eternal life.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in 2 Corinthians 7:15 where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” 1 Corinthians 2:3, mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

I find the OSAS doctrines do nothing but numb the minds of the continuing sinners.
They can do anything they want without the fear of the Lord.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness Philippians 3:13-14. The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” Romans 12:1-2 and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds Romans 12:1-2, coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

And if we don't ?

Ivan Hlavanda · Mar 17, 2025

Hoping2 said:
Plenty have jumped, from the Fathers proverbial hand.

Which part of 'I will lose none' don't you understand. No one who is saved jumped from God's hand.

Hoping2 said:
They can do anything they want without the fear of the Lord.

Who said such thing? Of couse we cannot do anything we want. We belong to Christ, we are His slaves. We must obey our Master. Sin is still deadly, and has terrible consequences. But when a Christian sins, he no longer loses salvation, because all our sins have been atoned for.

Hoping2 said:
And if we don't ?

You want to get to Heaven by your pwn efforts. Be my guest, but it won't end well. I will put my full trust in Christ Jesus and His perfect work on the cross. By faith is one justified. Everyone who believes has eternal life.

According to Scripture, sinners are dead - dead in trespasses and sin, separated from the life of God. They are blind. They are perishing. They’re in a state of perishing eternally. They are double blind because the god of this world has blinded their minds. In their natural state, they cannot understand the things of God - they are foolishness to them. Or to borrow the language of Romans 3, there is none who seeks after God, there is no fear of God before their eyes. This, then, affirms another doctrine that the church has always established as true and that is the sinner’s total inability.

The Bible is clear that all are dead in trespasses and sins. That the heart of man is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. That all its imaginations are only evil continually. The mind is dark, the soul is dark, the heart is full of wicked corruption. The sinner, on his own, can’t do anything.

In John chapter 1 and verse 12, “As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe on His name, who were born not of blood” - it didn’t come from a human source - “nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” If you were given the authority to become a child of God, if you were born into the family of God, it wasn’t because you activated human will. “For by grace you are saved, through faith - that not of yourselves.” First Corinthians chapter 1, in verse 30: “By His doing, you are in Christ Jesus.”

The doctrine of man’s inability necessitates the doctrine of God’s divine invasion. Salvation is from God. He must give light, He must give life, He must give sight, He must give understanding, He must give repentance, He must give faith, He must totally transform the sinner. And that’s what God does. And He does it to those whom He has chosen. Scripture is very clear on that as well.

Now, since the sinner cannot will to believe on his own, since he can only believe if God enables him to believe, and since God enables to believe those whom He has chosen, it should be clear that the provision of sacrifice that Christ provided on the cross would be on behalf of those who would believe because they were given life because they were chosen. For those who would believe who are the chosen and the called of God, to whom God regenerates, gives life, the atonement was designed to apply.

We know the atonement is limited because not everybody believes. People die without believing in Christ. They die rejecting the gospel. They die without ever hearing about Christ, and the only way to be saved is through faith in Christ. Sinners perish every minute and have through all of history. We all know the atonement is limited. Scripture is explicit about hell. Jesus said many are going to go there. So when somebody accuses you of saying you believe in limited atonement, of course you do. The atonement does not apply to everyone.

Hoping2 · Mar 17, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Which part of 'I will lose none' don't you understand. No one who is saved jumped from God's hand.

It is the unconverted that are lost.
The obedient will be saved on the day of judgement.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Who said such thing?

All of them who claim to be Christians, without obedience to God.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Of course we cannot do anything we want. We belong to Christ, we are His slaves. We must obey our Master.

Amen !

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Sin is still deadly, and has terrible consequences. But when a Christian sins, he no longer loses salvation, because all our sins have been atoned for.

I don't believe those in God's hands commit sin.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
You want to get to Heaven by your pwn efforts. Be my guest, but it won't end well. I will put my full trust in Christ Jesus and His perfect work on the cross. By faith is one justified. Everyone who believes has eternal life.

I will get to heaven BY God's efforts, and by His multiple gifts that insure it.
Those disobedient to God, who place their trust in Him, are the ones doing it by their own works.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
According to Scripture, sinners are dead - dead in trespasses and sin, separated from the life of God. They are blind. They are perishing. They’re in a state of perishing eternally. They are double blind because the god of this world has blinded their minds. In their natural state, they cannot understand the things of God - they are foolishness to them. Or to borrow the language of Romans 3, there is none who seeks after God, there is no fear of God before their eyes. This, then, affirms another doctrine that the church has always established as true and that is the sinner’s total inability.

I agree.
Thanks be to God that those who do want to be made alive have the opportunity to do so.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The Bible is clear that all are dead in trespasses and sins. That the heart of man is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. That all its imaginations are only evil continually. The mind is dark, the soul is dark, the heart is full of wicked corruption. The sinner, on his own, can’t do anything.

Right, and that includes claiming to be converted.
One must turn from sin to be converted.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
In John chapter 1 and verse 12, “As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe on His name, who were born not of blood” - it didn’t come from a human source - “nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” If you were given the authority to become a child of God, if you were born into the family of God, it wasn’t because you activated human will. “For by grace you are saved, through faith - that not of yourselves.” First Corinthians chapter 1, in verse 30: “By His doing, you are in Christ Jesus.”

No one who did not want to be His child, became His child.
The gifts are available, TO ALL WHO WANT THEM.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The doctrine of man’s inability necessitates the doctrine of God’s divine invasion. Salvation is from God. He must give light, He must give life, He must give sight, He must give understanding, He must give repentance, He must give faith, He must totally transform the sinner. And that’s what God does. And He does it to those whom He has chosen. Scripture is very clear on that as well.

Agreed, and the gifts have been presented to man for the taking.
Thanks be to God !

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Now, since the sinner cannot will to believe on his own,

I don't believe that for a second.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
since he can only believe if God enables him to believe, and since God enables to believe those whom He has chosen, it should be clear that the provision of sacrifice that Christ provided on the cross would be on behalf of those who would believe because they were given life because they were chosen. For those who would believe who are the chosen and the called of God, to whom God regenerates, gives life, the atonement was designed to apply.

God has put in place everything a man may require to believe in Him.
Everything has been made plain, for those who want it.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
We know the atonement is limited because not everybody believes. People die without believing in Christ. They die rejecting the gospel. They die without ever hearing about Christ, and the only way to be saved is through faith in Christ. Sinners perish every minute and have through all of history. We all know the atonement is limited. Scripture is explicit about hell. Jesus said many are going to go there. So when somebody accuses you of saying you believe in limited atonement, of course you do. The atonement does not apply to everyone.

I agree.
Man must want it in order to find it.
God won't hide from those who wish to serve Him.

Carl Emerson · Mar 21, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
If you had watched the video you’d see that I already explained that to. Who is “they”? Those who believe or those who believed (past tense)?

OK so you choose - walk in the fear of hell... or walk in the joy of the Lord.

Walk in the Good News or walk in the bad news.

Maranatha.

Heb 12
18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Carl Emerson · Mar 22, 2025

Going Back to the OP...

How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?

It depends on a few things.

What did your parents believe and how did this influence you.

Has your journey so far involved being told what to believe.

Have you encountered deep crisis that compelled you to reconsider your world view and hence your view of God.

Have you encountered God personally and profoundly which has triggered a deep search for truth.

Personally I think personal devotional study of scripture for about 5 years in a stretch without any denominational or sectarian influence is essential

BNR32FAN · Mar 22, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
OK so you choose - walk in the fear of hell... or walk in the joy of the Lord.

Walk in the Good News or walk in the bad news.

Maranatha.

Heb 12
18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

God chose to use BOTH fear and love to motivate people to repent and be saved. To say otherwise ignores half of the gospel message.

BNR32FAN · Mar 22, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
What did your parents believe and how did this influence you.

My parents didn’t go to church much or talk about God much.

Carl Emerson said:
Has your journey so far involved being told what to believe.

It did at first which is why I believed in eternal security before I actually started studying the Bible and the early church writings from the first two centuries.

Carl Emerson said:
Have you encountered deep crisis that compelled you to reconsider your world view and hence your view of God.

It was a deep crisis that brought me to Christ. I decided to reconsider my theology when I accepted a challenge from a Roman Catholic believer to interpret John 15:1-7 in a way that supports eternal security. After extensive study I failed the challenge. No matter how I tried to interpret the passage I couldn’t explain how it doesn’t contradict eternal security without ignoring the context of what is actually written.

Carl Emerson said:
Have you encountered God personally and profoundly which has triggered a deep search for truth.

Yes that’s why I not only studied the scriptures but also the early church writings and early church history. Because I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 is true, that would mean that there must be a church somewhere that still teaches what the apostles taught. I didn’t find a single early church writer that taught eternal security.

Carl Emerson said:
Personally I think personal devotional study of scripture for about 5 years in a stretch without any denominational or sectarian influence is essential

I’ve been studying the scriptures for about 13 years now. The first 5 years I believed in eternal security, but there were always passages like John 15:1-7, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Galatians 5:4 that I couldn’t understand because I couldn’t accept them for what they actually say. Now for the last 8 years after reevaluating my entire theology and coming to the realization that the scriptures do not teach eternal security I don’t have any problems at all with any passages not lining up with my theology.

FutureAndAHope · Mar 28, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
So we shouldn't believe this ???

John 10

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

But who are God's sheep?

John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

God's sheep are not "chosen" by God from eternity. But rather those who "chose to obey God" once exposed to His goodness and word.

We see that a lack of obedience can lead to death.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

FutureAndAHope · Mar 28, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Salvation happens when Christ says 'you are forgiven' at the same time God washes your sins and you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Nothing can break the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that we can be assured of our Salvation. That's why Christ said He will lose none. No one will snatch us from His hands, and that nothing will separate us from His love. We have been adopted into God's family and are heirs with Christ.

This is not biblical.

God does not just come and say, "You are forgiven". He rather shows us His nature and word, and we have to take the step of obedience, which generates or causes the Father's love.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We must maintain an attitude of repentance and obedience to be saved.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

Some come to Christ and become so entangled in their sins that they fall away.

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We can not claim to know Christ and grow sin in our lives. It can end in God's curse.

Carl Emerson · Mar 29, 2025

FutureAndAHope said:
But who are God's sheep?

Those who hear His voice and follow Him.

How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

He’s a Way of life

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

He’s a Way of life

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?​

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Just me

Just me

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?