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Israel and Judah

keras

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Lol, you see yourself as wise!
Actually, I am relatively uneducated, I left school at age 15, to learn a trade. I have never had teaching on Bible Prophecy, all I write is what I get direct from the Bible.
It is the Bible Prophets who are correct, I just quote what they say and we do have the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge.

Have you looked at my website? At least you will see that there is an alternative to the rapture and a coherent and logical end times sequence.
 

Lost4words

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Actually, I am relatively uneducated, I left school at age 15, to learn a trade. I have never had teaching on Bible Prophecy, all I write is what I get direct from the Bible.
It is the Bible Prophets who are correct, I just quote what they say and we do have the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge.

Have you looked at my website? At least you will see that there is an alternative to the rapture and a coherent and logical end times sequence.

I dont think the rapture is what people actually think it is to be honest. But, i guess we all have different views.
I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone.
 
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keras

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I dont think the rapture is what people actually think it is to be honest. But, i guess we all have different views.
I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone.
The 'rapture' as described in 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation from where His people are to where He will be. in Jerusalem.
There is no point in going to heaven at any time. Eventually heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:3
As i said earlier, no disrespect to you. Sorry if i have come across in that way.
Thank you and I pray for your enlightenment about the end times, as it is all described in the Bible.
 
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Dan Perez

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I dont think the rapture is what people actually think it is to be honest. But, i guess we all have different views.
I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone.
One thing that I do know , IS there is not a Greek word for RAPTURE , and check VINE'S DICTIONARY and see ??

But there are two different words that we can use !!

One in in 1 Thess 4;15 THE Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA

The second word is in 2 Thess 2:1 where the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA is also used .

The third Greek word is also in 1 Thess 4: 17 where the Greek word CAUGHT // HARPAZO and is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the PLURAL .

dan p
 
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keras

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Funny how threads seen to degenerate into a 'rapture' argument. Especially when the Bibe never says the Church will go to heaven.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's chosen descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:
"If a man from another country is living with you and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial decent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of the Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testament age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and the people wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (John 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addressing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, in the city of Pella, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. True believers in God always was the covenanted Israel, the faithful Christian peoples continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
 
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Dan Perez

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Funny how threads seen to degenerate into a 'rapture' argument. Especially when the Bibe never says the Church will go to heaven.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's chosen descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:
"If a man from another country is living with you and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial decent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of the Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testament age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and the people wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (John 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addressing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, in the city of Pella, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates weret Judah cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. True believers in God always was the covenanted Israel, the faithful Christian peoples continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
And Israel and Judah will again be one STICK as written in EZE 15;19 .and in EZE 37:1-14 !!

dan p
 
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Der Alte

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One thing that I do know , IS there is not a Greek word for RAPTURE , and check VINE'S DICTIONARY and see ??

But there are two different words that we can use !!

One in in 1 Thess 4;15 THE Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA

The second word is in 2 Thess 2:1 where the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA is also used .

The third Greek word is also in 1 Thess 4: 17 where the Greek word CAUGHT // HARPAZO and is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the PLURAL .

dan p

Rapture does not appear in the text of the Bible; however, it comes. from the Latin word rapere, meaning “rapid”1. and the Latin word rapiemur, meaning, “we shall. be caught up.”
Years ago, folks couldn't look up the truth in what they may have been taught, or told. With information readily available the way it is now, you should be able to dig in to what you say you read years ago. Please look it up and get back with us.

One of the biggest problems we have nowadays is folks just don't want to take a good look at some of the falsehoods they were taught...........for fear of finding out they were false, and also not wanting to know the truth because the lies justify their beliefs.
Amen. When I quote from credible verifiable sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, Greek and Hebrew lexicons it gets blown off as "a wall of text" and "copy/paste."
 
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Funny how threads seen to degenerate into a 'rapture' argument. Especially when the Bibe never says the Church will go to heaven.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's chosen descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:
"If a man from another country is living with you and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial decent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of the Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multiplied: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testament age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and the people wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (John 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addressing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, in the city of Pella, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. True believers in God always was the covenanted Israel, the faithful Christian peoples continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
We will be in Heaven and 1 Cor 6;2 we wil not only be in HEAVEN , but The Body of Christ will


GOVERN Christ UNIVERSE .

And also GOVERN Angels !!

dan p
 
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keras

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We will be in Heaven and 1 Cor 6;2 we wil not only be in HEAVEN , but The Body of Christ will


GOVERN Christ UNIVERSE .

And also GOVERN Angels !!

dan p
1 Corinthians 6:2-3 does not say when Gods people will be the judges of the world.
We are told that in Revelation 20:1-7 - AFTER the Millennium.

I could ask you to provide a scripture which says Christians will go to heaven, but I know there isn't any such Prophecy.
We never go to heaven. Eventually God and heaven come to us.

It is rather wakadoodle to think we will sit in heaven and control the earth from there.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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One thing that I do know , IS there is not a Greek word for RAPTURE , and check VINE'S DICTIONARY and see ??
But there are two different words that we can use !!
One in in 1 Thess 4;15 THE Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA
The second word is in 2 Thess 2:1 where the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA is also used .
The third Greek word is also in 1 Thess 4: 17 where the Greek word CAUGHT // HARPAZO and is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the PLURAL .

dan p
The word "rapture" crept into Christian theology via the Latin translation where "harpazo" is translated in Latin as "rapire." Both mean "caught up." nothing super natural.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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ISRAEL AND JUDAH – not rejoined as yet.
The Bible has over 160 instances in the same verse, where Israel and Judah are mentioned as different, separate entities. It’s clear that they are not to be rejoined until after the Middle East is cleared and His people are regathered, judged and settled together in all of the Holy Land, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 20:32-38

Mainstream Church teaching, especially Catholic, says that the Jews now in the Land are all Israel. Some teach Replacement theology, where their Church is now the new Israel.
Have they rejoined already? Josephus, the Jewish historian, circa 100AD, wrote that the 10 lost tribes were a great multitude, then living beyond the Euphrates River.
In the Talmud, Rabbi’s Akiva and Eliezer circa 200AD, discuss the question of when the 10 lost tribes would return. So, only Judah was present at that time.
At the establishment of the State of Israel, in 1948, the name was to have been Judah, but David Ben Gurion changed to Israel at the last minute. A serious misnomer.

So, we await the fulfilment of these prophecies;
Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites [the 2 tribes of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel.] from their places of exile among the nations. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I shall make them a single nation in the Land and one King will be over them all. No longer will they be two nations or divided into two Kingdoms.

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days and at that time [ after the land has been cleansed] The people of Israel and the people of Judah will come together and in tears go in search of their God. They will ask the way to Zion, turning towards her and saying; Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in everlasting covenant.

Hosea 1:11 The people of Judah and Israel will be reunited and will choose for themselves one leader. [This must be before the Return of Jesus]

Micah 7:8-10 My enemies, do not exult over me [ Israel] Though I have fallen, I will rise again. Though I sit in darkness, the Lord will be my light. Because I have sinned against the Lord I must bear His anger until He pleads my case, gives judgement and establishes my rights. Then my enemies will see it and be shamed – those who said “where is your God “. I will see their downfall, they will be trampled like mud on the streets.

Micah 7:11-12 The day for rebuilding and extending your boundaries will come. A day when Your people will return to the Land, from every sea and every mountain.
Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Revelation 7:9-13

Zechariah 1:18-21 The four horns [ nations, peoples.] that scattered Judah and Israel.
Assyria, Babylon, Rome and now Islam. The four smiths [destroyers] have come to overthrow them.

Hosea 2:23 [New] Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will love them and say to them:You are My people” and they will say “You are our God”. Romans 9:24-26
In the most simplistic terms, the physical nation remains separated from its Spiritual Head
 
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linux.poet

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MOD HAT ON

A small cleanup was done to remove some cleverly worded personal attacks. Do not:
1. imply that another member is proud and making vague accusations, as that is a personal attack on that member.
2. claim that another member is a false teacher making elementary deceptions that are easy to see through, as that is also a personal attack on that member.

And finally, while there are some limitations to online ministry, complaining about the CF member population in general is Disruptive Behavior and will be actioned.​

MOD HAT OFF

 
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Dan Perez

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Actually, I am relatively uneducated, I left school at age 15, to learn a trade. I have never had teaching on Bible Prophecy, all I write is what I get direct from the Bible.
It is the Bible Prophets who are correct, I just quote what they say and we do have the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge.

Have you looked at my website? At least you will see that there is an alternative to the rapture and a coherent and logical end times sequence.
Anyone that checks VINE'S DICTIONARY WILL SEE THAT THERE IS NO GREEK WORD FOR RAPTURE and I have looked at STRONG'S CONCORDANCE AS WELL !!

What is your alternate with verses only !!

dan p
 
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keras

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Anyone that checks VINE'S DICTIONARY WILL SEE THAT THERE IS NO GREEK WORD FOR RAPTURE and I have looked at STRONG'S CONCORDANCE AS WELL !!

What is your alternate with verses only !!

dan p
Go to; www.logostelos.info and read the intro, also many articles which refute any rapture to heaven.
 
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Dan Perez

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Go to; www.logostelos.info and read the intro, also many articles which refute any rapture to heaven.
Go to; 3 www.logostelos.info and read the intro, also many articles which refute any rapture to heaven.
And there are MANY verse that spaek of being taken to heaven ,

AND 1 Thess 4:17 , will be CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , at the same time with them in the CLOUDS for a metting

of the LORD into the AIR , and so we will be with the LORD

Then and other one in Gal 1:4 , RESCUE // EXAIREO , in the SUBJUNCATIVE MOOD

Then in 2 Thess 2:1 Even are GATHERING TOGETHER , UNTO HIM .

In 2 Thess 2:3 , No one should THOROUHLY DECEIVE YOU , in NOT // ME , is a DISJUNCATIVE PAROCLE NEGATIVE , not one way

because EXCEPT the DEPARTURE // APOSTASTIA , should come FIRST // PROTOS , meaning are depature of the BODY of CHRIST

and the MAN of SIN should be REVEALED the son of DESTRUCTION

I have to go and read verses 4-7

dan p
 
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keras

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And there are MANY verse that spaek of being taken to heaven ,
Actually, there is no Bible verse which says any humans alive or dead, will be taken to live in heaven. A few have been taken there for various reasons, Just a brief Spiritual experience,
We are earth people, we never leave the earth. Eventually God and heaven come to us. Rev 21:1-7

There is no 'rapture to heaven' Prophesied: the 'harpazo' in 1 Thess 4:16-17, is a transportation, to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be.

DISJUNCATIVE PAROCLE NEGATIVE
Thanks for the laugh.
 
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Dan Perez

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Actually, I am relatively uneducated, I left school at age 15, to learn a trade. I have never had teaching on Bible Prophecy, all I write is what I get direct from the Bible.
It is the Bible Prophets who are correct, I just quote what they say and we do have the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge.

Have you looked at my website? At least you will see that there is an alternative to the rapture and a coherent and logical end times sequence.
And lets see your ALTERATIVE to the RAPTURE !

And I happen to that there is NO GREEK word for RAPTURE , PERIOD .

But Ibelieve 1 Thess 4:17 where the GREEK word , CAUGHT WAY // HARPAZO is used and also in 2 Thess 2: 1 and 2 , where '

the Greek word COMI G // PAROUSIA is used .

and in 2 Thess 2 : 3 has the Greek word , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA should come , and there are more !

dan p
 
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keras

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And lets see your ALTERATIVE to the RAPTURE !
The Alternative to a rapture

Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out. We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?

We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7

This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Friends and brethren, we look forward to an amazing future, where we can be a part of Gods wonderful Plan for His faithful peoples and enjoy His Blessings as we live in peace and prosperity under His protection. Ezekiel 38 & 39 demonstrate how the Lord will protect us from enemies.

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

Keraz - logostelos.info
 
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