1 Tim 2:3-6 it’s Gods will that all men to be saved

Jeff Saunders · Feb 12, 2025

I have been told many times over that 1Tim 2:3-6 when it says it’s Gods will that none parish, that God has two wills one that he wants and the one he gets. What I would like to know does that also apply to every scripture that says “… it’s Gods will … or this is the will of God…” or is it only for 1 Tim 2:3-6 ? If it only applies to that 1Tim verse why? If it applies to all scripture that talks about Gods will , by what standard do you use to see what part of Gods two wills apply? If God has two wills how can you say for certain what his will is when he has two?

Der Alte · Feb 12, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I have been told many times over that 1Tim 2:3-6 when it says it’s Gods will that none parish, that God has two wills one that he wants and the one he gets. What I would like to know does that also apply to every scripture that says “… it’s Gods will … or this is the will of God…” or is it only for 1 Tim 2:3-6 ? If it only applies to that 1Tim verse why? If it applies to all scripture that talks about Gods will , by what standard do you use to see what part of Gods two wills apply? If God has two wills how can you say for certain what his will is when he has two?

The correct word is "perish" NOT "parish" which in Louisiana is equivalent to a county in other states. It is in fact God's will that none perish but some, almost certainly many, will disobey, God and perish. And I have God's word on that.

Jeremiah 13:10-14

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have [God's will] I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.

(14) And [also God's will] I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Doesn't sound like everyone gets saved to me. I know how the book ends.
Several years ago I was working for my rich uncle in DC flying from the west coast to Va., for training. The man, in civilian attire, in the seat beside me was reading the Bible. I said "That's a good book I like how it ends." He laughed and I said "You are a military aviator." He said, "Do I have a sign on my forehead?" I said "No, the [aviator] glasses and the [military] haircut." I had the glasses and before I retired I had the haircut. I flew helicopters 2 yrs in Viet Nam.

BNR32FAN · Mar 3, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I have been told many times over that 1Tim 2:3-6 when it says it’s Gods will that none parish, that God has two wills one that he wants and the one he gets. What I would like to know does that also apply to every scripture that says “… it’s Gods will … or this is the will of God…” or is it only for 1 Tim 2:3-6 ? If it only applies to that 1Tim verse why? If it applies to all scripture that talks about Gods will , by what standard do you use to see what part of Gods two wills apply? If God has two wills how can you say for certain what his will is when he has two?

No it also applies to John 6:39.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Unfortunately not everyone abides in Christ. I would expect that for someone who has studied the early church writings you would be familiar with this teaching.

BNR32FAN · Mar 3, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I have been told many times over that 1Tim 2:3-6 when it says it’s Gods will that none parish, that God has two wills one that he wants and the one he gets. What I would like to know does that also apply to every scripture that says “… it’s Gods will … or this is the will of God…” or is it only for 1 Tim 2:3-6 ? If it only applies to that 1Tim verse why? If it applies to all scripture that talks about Gods will , by what standard do you use to see what part of Gods two wills apply? If God has two wills how can you say for certain what his will is when he has two?

Have you looked up the definition of the Greek word? You claim to know a lot about the Greek language. It’s also translated as desire. How do we know which desires will actually take place? Easy, the ones that the scriptures say won’t take place, won’t take place.

Jeff Saunders · Mar 3, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
No it also applies to John 6:39.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Unfortunately not everyone abides in Christ. I would expect that for someone who has studied the early church writings you would be familiar with this teaching.

John 3:35 The Father loves the son and placed all things in his hands . So God has placed all things in Jesus’s hands and he loses none of it . Matt 11.27 All things have been handed to Jesus. Again all things . John 13:3 The Father had given all things into his hands . I think we have a theme going on here. John 17:2 You gave him authority over all flesh that to all whom you have given him, he may give eternal life. Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his Holy Prophets since the world began. These are more verses that tell of the powerful nature of what Jesus did on the cross . Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

Jeff Saunders · Mar 3, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
Have you looked up the definition of the Greek word? You claim to know a lot about the Greek language. It’s also translated as desire. How do we know which desires will actually take place? Easy, the ones that the scriptures say won’t take place, won’t take place.

Even if you prefer the translation of desire that’s ok . Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he DESIRES he does. Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned it, it will happen. And I have never claimed to know a lot about Greek , I do have the internet and know how to do word studies. God does not have conflicting desires, that goes against his nature and that is not possible. It’s just a way around scripture that goes against tradition.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Even if you prefer the translation of desire that’s ok . Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he DESIRES he does. Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned it, it will happen. And I have never claimed to know a lot about Greek , I do have the internet and know how to do word studies. God does not have conflicting desires, that goes against his nature and that is not possible. It’s just a way around scripture that goes against tradition.

Is this your speculation again or are you referring to actual doctrine? And yes some in the early church beginning in the 3rd century believed in universalism. Umm half of the church also believed in Arianism and many believed in Gnosticism. Do you consider these as traditional as well?

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Even if you prefer the translation of desire that’s ok . Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he DESIRES he does. Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned it, it will happen. And I have never claimed to know a lot about Greek , I do have the internet and know how to do word studies. God does not have conflicting desires, that goes against his nature and that is not possible. It’s just a way around scripture that goes against tradition.

If God is going to save everyone why does Jesus reject the people in Matthew 7:21-27?

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

They confessed that Jesus is Lord so why are they rejected on Judgement Day?

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

I

Jeff Saunders said:
Even if you prefer the translation of desire that’s ok . Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he DESIRES he does. Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned it, it will happen. And I have never claimed to know a lot about Greek , I do have the internet and know how to do word studies. God does not have conflicting desires, that goes against his nature and that is not possible. It’s just a way around scripture that goes against tradition.

I also want to go back to what you said about the death of the soul in hell. So, these people who are in hell, their body is dead, their souls is being killed, and they are spiritually dead. I believe you said that their spirit is alive but can you show me a passage of scripture that says that anyone’s spirit is alive who is not in Christ?

Jeff Saunders · Mar 4, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
Is this your speculation again or are you referring to actual doctrine? And yes some in the early church beginning in the 3rd century believed in universalism. Umm half of the church also believed in Arianism and many believed in Gnosticism. Do you consider these as traditional as well?

If you understand what Christian Universal Redemption/Salvation believes then the answer should be obvious. Most people who argue against this tradition have never studied what it is that was taught by the early church. I personally follow Gregory of Nyssa as a mentor and example. I have been trying to read his translated works that have survived. The only real difference that we have, with the Augustine tradition that has become what we call Protestant , is we believe that God will pursue each of his creation until he finds them and nothing can keep Jesus from gaining 100% of what he paid for . That’s the biggest difference

Jeff Saunders · Mar 4, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
If God is going to save everyone why does Jesus reject the people in Matthew 7:21-27?

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

They confessed that Jesus is Lord so why are they rejected on Judgement Day?

Did they confess that Jesus is Lord? I would say not. What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? I am going to step on a lot of toes with this but that’s ok . I have grown up in the church my whole life, Arminian camp, and have seen many times when people think that saying a prayer , like it’s a magical incantation, makes you “saved” and I have witnessed people who say the prayer and maybe even follow a bunch of rules, to keep out of “hell” but do not have the mind and heart of Christ. God is the judge of the heart , scripture says man looks on the outside but God judges the heart, God knows who truly love him and those who are just play acting to get their “ get out of hell free card “ . I also wonder how close we have to be in our understanding of who Jesus is and how far off you can be and still be part of the kingdom. For example- I was talking with a Mormon bishop and had many conversations about what they believe. He believes the scripture and says “ believe that Jesus is the sin of God and he died for our sins , and we do” they believed that Jesus was God son in that God created Jesus and now Jesus was his son. This belief may use the same words but the definition of those words are not what is taught in scripture. So how far off can you be and still be part of the kingdom? Only God is the judge. I used to think that Calvinist were not Christians because they worship another Jesus, who didn’t die for the whole world only for a few he chooses and then tortured the rest for all eternity. But God had to soften my heart and let me know that we all have error I. Our understanding of him and he was the judge not me. I believe Jesus is the true savior of the world not potential savior. Most Christians of today believe that Jesus is only the potential savior and our will is greater than the God who created us. So yes there will be people who say Lord Lord but in their heart they never knew the true Jesus, only the Jesus of their tradition that may be not accurate . Ultimately God is the judge and he is loving and fair and will do what’s best for his beloved humanity.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
If you understand what Christian Universal Redemption/Salvation believes then the answer should be obvious. Most people who argue against this tradition have never studied what it is that was taught by the early church. I personally follow Gregory of Nyssa as a mentor and example. I have been trying to read his translated works that have survived. The only real difference that we have, with the Augustine tradition that has become what we call Protestant , is we believe that God will pursue each of his creation until he finds them and nothing can keep Jesus from gaining 100% of what he paid for . That’s the biggest difference

Gregory of Nyssa was a 4th century theologian who was influenced by Origen. Why are you looking at 3rd and 4th century writings to learn what the early church taught? The 5th ecumenical council issued 19 anathemas to Origen’s theology.

JulieB67 · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Did they confess that Jesus is Lord? I would say not.

Of course they did or they would not have cast out spirits in his "name." They also prophesized and did many works in his name.

Jeff Saunders said:
, God knows who truly love him and those who are just play acting

Yes, that's true (I believe that goes on in many churches) but I think a lot of people simply fall away as well. (apostasy) They actually had the truth and departed from it. I think that's really an important factor for the end generation. As I've stated before apostasy -departing from the truth/faith is a real thing.

Jeff Saunders said:
. I also wonder how close we have to be in our understanding of who Jesus is and how far off you can be and still be part of the kingdom.

The person below that commits this horrible sin will not have a place in the book of life, the holy city or the things written about the eternity in Revelation. Essentially nothing. So even this verse at the back of the book proves UR is a false teaching. It's very emphatic on all three things which should leave no doubt. Are we going to believe God or man? That is the question.

Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Christ even uses the word testify- Greek word matureo That's how important this is. It's a serious warning, and a serious truth. You talk about knowing the true Jesus and yet somehow don't believe his testimony here.

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Jeff Saunders · Mar 4, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
I

I also want to go back to what you said about the death of the soul in hell. So, these people who are in hell, their body is dead, their souls is being killed, and they are spiritually dead. I believe you said that their spirit is alive but can you show me a passage of scripture that says that anyone’s spirit is alive who is not in Christ?

Our Spirit is who we are it will never die in the sense that our body will be dead and no more.

BNR32FAN said:
Gregory of Nyssa was a 4th century theologian who was influenced by Origen. Why are you looking at 3rd and 4th century writings to learn what the early church taught? The 5th ecumenical council issued 19 anathemas to Origen’s theology.

Did they not also at that council say , Mary was a continuous virgin? And other Catholic things that are not true , so even if they did it formally it really means nothing. Also there is much debate over if the council was even legit or not so no that means nothing to me. Also what they supposedly condemned were not Origens teachings but what other’s distorted about Origens teachings. The reason to look at the first couple hundred years of the church to get a better understanding of scripture is for several reasons. 1 they were closest to the original writers of scripture and Greek was their native language, that is Ancient Greek not modern Greek, and some of the writings come directly from people who were taught by the original authors. 2 the church had not become a state religion at that time and so it was organic and not institutionalized. Gregory of Nyssa was one who taught the most consistent understanding of scripture and did not have to explain away much of the plain reading with pages of explanations of why the plain reading had to be explained away. That’s partly of why I follow the early teachings over the modern ones.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Did they confess that Jesus is Lord? I would say not. What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? I am going to step on a lot of toes with this but that’s ok . I have grown up in the church my whole life, Arminian camp, and have seen many times when people think that saying a prayer , like it’s a magical incantation, makes you “saved” and I have witnessed people who say the prayer and maybe even follow a bunch of rules, to keep out of “hell” but do not have the mind and heart of Christ. God is the judge of the heart , scripture says man looks on the outside but God judges the heart, God knows who truly love him and those who are just play acting to get their “ get out of hell free card “ . I also wonder how close we have to be in our understanding of who Jesus is and how far off you can be and still be part of the kingdom. For example- I was talking with a Mormon bishop and had many conversations about what they believe. He believes the scripture and says “ believe that Jesus is the sin of God and he died for our sins , and we do” they believed that Jesus was God son in that God created Jesus and now Jesus was his son. This belief may use the same words but the definition of those words are not what is taught in scripture. So how far off can you be and still be part of the kingdom? Only God is the judge. I used to think that Calvinist were not Christians because they worship another Jesus, who didn’t die for the whole world only for a few he chooses and then tortured the rest for all eternity. But God had to soften my heart and let me know that we all have error I. Our understanding of him and he was the judge not me. I believe Jesus is the true savior of the world not potential savior. Most Christians of today believe that Jesus is only the potential savior and our will is greater than the God who created us. So yes there will be people who say Lord Lord but in their heart they never knew the true Jesus, only the Jesus of their tradition that may be not accurate . Ultimately God is the judge and he is loving and fair and will do what’s best for his beloved humanity.

Right so what was your point of quoting that “every knee shall bend and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord”? That’s exactly what these people are doing in Matthew 7 and Jesus still condemns them. Like I said, everyone will confess Jesus is Lord, BEFORE the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Our Spirit is who we are it will never die in the sense that our body will be dead and no more.

Did they not also at that council say , Mary was a continuous virgin? And other Catholic things that are not true , so even if they did it formally it really means nothing. Also there is much debate over if the council was even legit or not so no that means nothing to me. Also what they supposedly condemned were not Origens teachings but what other’s distorted about Origens teachings. The reason to look at the first couple hundred years of the church to get a better understanding of scripture is for several reasons. 1 they were closest to the original writers of scripture and Greek was their native language, that is Ancient Greek not modern Greek, and some of the writings come directly from people who were taught by the original authors. 2 the church had not become a state religion at that time and so it was organic and not institutionalized. Gregory of Nyssa was one who taught the most consistent understanding of scripture and did not have to explain away much of the plain reading with pages of explanations of why the plain reading had to be explained away. That’s partly of why I follow the early teachings over the modern ones.

No my point of asking why the 3rd and 4th century theologians is because that’s when most of the heresies began. The first 2 centuries are actually much closer to what the apostles taught because the first century theologians were taught directly by the apostles because they were disciples of the apostles. So they actually received more information than what we have in the New Testament. I can read the New Testament in about 4 hours, the disciples of the apostles followed them for several years, hearing numerous sermons, sat and ate with them, and were able to ask questions and get straight answers. The writings of these men often refute the incorrect interpretations of scripture that were circulating at the time. They also give a more accurate testimony to the intended interpretations of the New Testament gospels and epistles because they received more information directly from the apostles than anyone else. The second century writers were disciples of the first century writers. The further you get from the era of the apostles the more heretical interpretations you find in the writings of the early church theologians.

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Our Spirit is who we are it will never die in the sense that our body will be dead and no more.

Did they not also at that council say , Mary was a continuous virgin? And other Catholic things that are not true , so even if they did it formally it really means nothing. Also there is much debate over if the council was even legit or not so no that means nothing to me. Also what they supposedly condemned were not Origens teachings but what other’s distorted about Origens teachings. The reason to look at the first couple hundred years of the church to get a better understanding of scripture is for several reasons. 1 they were closest to the original writers of scripture and Greek was their native language, that is Ancient Greek not modern Greek, and some of the writings come directly from people who were taught by the original authors. 2 the church had not become a state religion at that time and so it was organic and not institutionalized. Gregory of Nyssa was one who taught the most consistent understanding of scripture and did not have to explain away much of the plain reading with pages of explanations of why the plain reading had to be explained away. That’s partly of why I follow the early teachings over the modern ones.

Previously I quoted Ezekiel 18 as evidence that God does not get everything He desires.

“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB 1995

But you dismissed it claiming that I’m not looking at the bigger picture. But you keep on quoting 2 Peter 3:9 which says the same exact thing.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Our Spirit is who we are it will never die in the sense that our body will be dead and no more.

Did they not also at that council say , Mary was a continuous virgin? And other Catholic things that are not true , so even if they did it formally it really means nothing. Also there is much debate over if the council was even legit or not so no that means nothing to me. Also what they supposedly condemned were not Origens teachings but what other’s distorted about Origens teachings. The reason to look at the first couple hundred years of the church to get a better understanding of scripture is for several reasons. 1 they were closest to the original writers of scripture and Greek was their native language, that is Ancient Greek not modern Greek, and some of the writings come directly from people who were taught by the original authors. 2 the church had not become a state religion at that time and so it was organic and not institutionalized. Gregory of Nyssa was one who taught the most consistent understanding of scripture and did not have to explain away much of the plain reading with pages of explanations of why the plain reading had to be explained away. That’s partly of why I follow the early teachings over the modern ones.

Can you please quote a scripture saying that anyone’s spirit is not dead before they come to Christ?

BNR32FAN · Mar 4, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
Our Spirit is who we are it will never die in the sense that our body will be dead and no more.

Did they not also at that council say , Mary was a continuous virgin? And other Catholic things that are not true , so even if they did it formally it really means nothing. Also there is much debate over if the council was even legit or not so no that means nothing to me. Also what they supposedly condemned were not Origens teachings but what other’s distorted about Origens teachings. The reason to look at the first couple hundred years of the church to get a better understanding of scripture is for several reasons. 1 they were closest to the original writers of scripture and Greek was their native language, that is Ancient Greek not modern Greek, and some of the writings come directly from people who were taught by the original authors. 2 the church had not become a state religion at that time and so it was organic and not institutionalized. Gregory of Nyssa was one who taught the most consistent understanding of scripture and did not have to explain away much of the plain reading with pages of explanations of why the plain reading had to be explained away. That’s partly of why I follow the early teachings over the modern ones.

I don’t think you ever answered my question, why did Jesus make it a point to point out that no one is allowed to cross over from Abraham’s Bosom to Hades and vice versa in the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

1 Tim 2:3-6 it’s Gods will that all men to be saved

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