Did Jesus have to keep the Law to achieve atonement and break it's curse?

Grafted In · Nov 17, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I notice Jesus opposed the stoning of the woman in adultery which the Law required to be done.

He also harvested on the Sabbath when the disciples were hungry.

Was He then fulfilling the Law by keeping a higher 'Law of the Spirit'?

Comments welcome.

Yes, I believe so. He did have to fulfill that law. However, there were no accusers in her case, so no need to do anything but watch with delight as, perhaps, the woman comes to believing faith in Jesus.
And perhaps from her hypocritical accusers.

Carl Emerson · Nov 18, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
Thanks for clarifying, you capitalized the M in man, so I wasn’t sure what you were referring to.

The Sabbath was made for man. Man was made in the image of God, in His likeness Gen 1:26 before the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for mankind. God rested on the seventh day, not because God needs rest, He is mans example to follow. The Sabbath was made to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify us because man can’t santify themselves. Eze 20:12 We need God for everything.

I do not believe you are interpreting the verse correctly regarding the priests “working“ on the Sabbath. They were held blameless because the work of priest in bible times was the work of God, it was not secular work which is a violation of the commandment and there is no violation to do the ways of God on the Sabbath Isa 58:13. Much like Pastors whose job is to preach, is held blameless on the Sabbath when they are preaching God’s Word.

Jesus clearly said they were breaking the Sabbath, yet innocent.

He did not say they were not breaking the Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus clearly said they were breaking the Sabbath, yet innocent.

He did not say they were not breaking the Sabbath.

You need to understand why Jesus said they were innocent.

Doing work of priests to honor God is not a sin...but if you turn your foot from the Sabbath doing our own pleasures on God's holy day it is. Hence why they priests were held blameless, and why we would be not for doing our own works, our own pleasures on God's holy Sabbath day.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,

But if priests (or us) violate God's law, who are we really profaning?

Eze 22: 26 Her priests have [a]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Carl Emerson · Nov 18, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
You need to understand why Jesus said they were innocent.

Doing work of priests to honor God is not a sin...but if you turn your foot from the Sabbath doing our own pleasures on God's holy day it is. Hence why they priests were held blameless, and why we would be not for doing our own works, our own pleasures on God's holy Sabbath day.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,

But if priests (or us) violate God's law, who are we really profaning?

Eze 22: 26 Her priests have [a]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Yes - we agree on why they were innocent.

You seem unwilling however, to agree with Jesus, that they were indeed breaking the Sabbath.

which leads to the next question -

Do you believe in the Priesthood of all believers ???

Believers walking in the Spirit are equally blameless.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Yes - we agree on why they were innocent.

You seem unwilling however, to agree with Jesus, that they were indeed breaking the Sabbath.

which leads to the next question -

Do you believe in the Priesthood of all believers ???

Believers walking in the Spirit are equally blameless.

Were the priests doing God’s work on the Sabbath or their own works?

If the priests were doing God’s works, breaking God’s Sabbath, was not sinning and why Jesus said they were blameless . If you think He condoned their works because they were doing secular work you should read in what Jesus said in His own Words Eze 22:26. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for breaking God’s commandments in lieu of their own traditions Mat 5:19-30 Jesus was not turning a blind eye to His priests so you need to understand Jesus in context why they were held blameless, you seem to be skimming past this for some strange reason. Doing our own pleasures, our own work, is not the same as doing God’s work. Like Pastors preaching on the Sabbath their “work” is God’s work, why they are held blames for “working” and breaking the Sabbath. If you don’t understand the difference between God’s work and secular work and pleasures, not sure I can help you.

Believer's waking in the Spirit would not be breaking God’s law. At least thats what the scriptures teach.

If we are God’s priest, we too would not violate God’s law by doing our own works and pleasures on God’s holy day Isa 58:13. You will not find an example of Jesus or the apostles doing so. They were accused of breaking God’s Sabbath by the Pharisees, but never did.

The Spirit is given to help us keep God’s commandments, not break them, thats not the spirit we want.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Carl Emerson · Nov 18, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
If the priests were doing God’s works, breaking God’s Sabbath, was not sinning and why Jesus said they were blameless .

Exactly - and the same applies to believers.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Exactly - and the same applies to believers.

What is God’s works? It certainly is not doing our own pleasures or our own work.

Jesus as our example to follow was in the synagogues (church) reading God’s Word Luke 4:16-17 as were the apostles who were followers of Christ Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 Acts 15:21 thats what a Christian means- to follow Christ By the example He left for us to follow in His footsteps 1 Peter 2:21-22 1 John 2:5-6

Carl Emerson · Nov 18, 2024

SabbathBlessings said:
What is God’s works? It certainly is not doing our own pleasures or our own work.

Exactly - that would not be walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

johansen · Nov 20, 2024

for what its worth i talked to a friend of mine about this topic again... its a bit sensitive. he's known me for decades so its not a problem.

the idea that the 613 rules are added because of transgressions (including but not limited to the golden calf) is not a new idea. its actually taught by some rabbis.

so anyhow, he doesn't see it as a theological problem to say that the development of the 613 laws was made over the course of the rest of moses' life, and onwards, and when the NT says the law was delivered by angels: Remember, God spoke face to face with Moses, but for the rest, he used angels, dreams, visions, etc. So the LAW was not delivered to Moses by angels...

He has no problem believing the 613 laws were the result of a slow development, not some kind of supernatural text book dropped out of heaven.

Carl Emerson · Nov 20, 2024

johansen said:
for what its worth i talked to a friend of mine about this topic again... its a bit sensitive. he's known me for decades so its not a problem.

the idea that the 613 rules are added because of transgressions (including but not limited to the golden calf) is not a new idea. its actually taught by some rabbis.

so anyhow, he doesn't see it as a theological problem to say that the development of the 613 laws was made over the course of the rest of moses' life, and onwards, and when the NT says the law was delivered by angels: Remember, God spoke face to face with Moses, but for the rest, he used angels, dreams, visions, etc. So the LAW was not delivered to Moses by angels...

He has no problem believing the 613 laws were the result of a slow development, not some kind of supernatural text book dropped out of heaven.

Considering that the ongoing Laws were mediated by angels - do you think there is any possible credence to the suggestion that Satan could have been involved in this process resulting in the laws being more binding than what was intended ???

johansen · Nov 20, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Considering that the ongoing Laws were mediated by angels - do you think there is any possible credence to the suggestion that Satan could have been involved in this process resulting in the laws being more binding than what was intended ???

well, of course. how many of those are in the 66 books of the bible i don't know.

what i do know is the oral torah and the case history and the "rules"

--are the length of 4 sets of encyclopedias.

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Did Jesus have to keep the Law to achieve atonement and break it's curse?

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