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WHO has gone up to heaven and come down?

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tonychanyt

tonychanyt

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Proverbs 30:4 provides an allusion to the notion of the special Son of God and not just any angelic sons of God:

Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!
Click to expand...
Who has gone up to heaven and come down?

Jesus affirmed the uniqueness of Sonship in John 3:

13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
Click to expand...
What about Gabriel and Satan?

There are two possible explanations:

  1. Jesus might have referred to human beings.
No one [human being] has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
Click to expand...
2. Gabriel and Satan had gone up to heaven and come down but not in the context of Pr 30:

4b Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Click to expand...
 
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PesachPup

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tonychanyt said:
Proverbs 30:4 provides an allusion to the notion of the special Son of God and not just any angelic sons of God:


Who has gone up to heaven and come down?

Jesus affirmed the uniqueness of Sonship in John 3:


What about Gabriel and Satan?

  1. Jesus might have referred to human beings.

2. Gabriel and Satan had gone up to heaven and come down but not in the context of Pr 30:
Click to expand...
You are missing the point of Jesus's words. It is not about "going up to heaven". But it is "no MAN has ASCENDED to heaven", save he that came down from heaven. If it was only about a man going to heaven, one could easily make the case for Enoch or Elijah being taken up to heaven. But it is about a man ascending to the very throne room where God dwells. Moses was told rightly that no man can see God lest he die. Sinful mortal man would immediately die if brought into the [very] holy place of God, and allowed to gaze upon the holiness of God. Only the sinless Son of God has attained unto the necessary holiness, to not be overcome of death, (only Jesus) and no one else, to be found worthy to enter into direct, intimate, fellowship with God, AS A MAN! The sinless life that (only) Christ has lived, restores the fellowship of God and man. That fellowship has been broken and ongoing since the fall of man. And God himself shall remain in heaven... until the restitution of ALL things,

Act 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This is the reason why no man, but Jesus, was found worthy to open the 7 sealed scroll.

Be Blessed
The PuP
 
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PesachPup

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tonychanyt said:
See point #1 in the OP.
Click to expand...
You still alluded to Satan and Gabriel filling the criteria of WHO has gone up to heaven. No man has ascended to heaven but Jesus. It does not include the possibility of angels. So you miss the point by incorrectly asking, who has "gone up" to heaven, instead of ascended to heaven.

Eph 4:9 KJV (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Joh 3:13 KJV And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down [descended] from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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tonychanyt said:
I edited the OP to clarify. Take another look. Feel free to follow up.
Click to expand...
I think I have addressed this by saying that Jesus is referring only to men (in regards to ascending to heaven) and excludes those of the angelic realm. And that Jesus is the only man that has ascended and descended to and from heaven.
The PuP
 
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PesachPup

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tonychanyt said:
Is my point #2 a possible interpretation for Jn 3:13?
Click to expand...
I think I have already concluded that it is not, because I would not include those of the angelic realm. It is about ascension of men. But there is some room for saying yes, if one were to take the view that they are not permitted into the throne room. For I would contend that not all angels are good and holy. Some will join Satan in his rebellion. I think that Jesus is using "ascended" in John 3:13 connotatively to represent eternal glorification, like unto God himself. And Satan will not be eternally glorified. So we can rule out Satan to be eternally glorified... by the Scriptures. Another thing. Jesus, even though it is said that he was with the father, in the beginning, he was not a man prior to his incarnation. So, let me ask you this:
How could Jesus say that he was already in the category of having ascended (past tense) to heaven (AS A MAN) prior to his death burial and resurrection? It is from this that I get my understanding of what Jesus means when he says that he is the only man that has [already] ascended to heaven.
Be Blessed
The PuP
 
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tonychanyt

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PesachPup said:
How could Jesus say that he was already in the category of having ascended (past tense) to heaven (AS A MAN) prior to his death burial and resurrection? It is from this that I get my understanding of what Jesus means when he says that he is the only man that has [already] ascended to heaven.
Click to expand...
I am having trouble following your logic here. Let me try another angle.

Let proposition P1 = Jesus in Jn 3:13 alluded to Pr 30:4.

Is P1 true?
 
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tonychanyt said:
I am having trouble following your logic here. Let me try another angle.

Let proposition P1 = Jesus in Jn 3:13 alluded to Pr 30:4.

Is P1 true?
Click to expand...
Yes it is Jesus. But how can it be true that Jesus had already ascended to heaven (when he utters John 3:13), but later says:

Joh 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Did Jesus "ascend to heaven" before he was resurrected?
Be Blessed
The PuP
 
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